Debate about Heaven

Majikthise · Dec 27, 2005

What about the 70 virgins?

TashaN · Dec 27, 2005

robtex said:
You lost me. I thought the Koran is the word of Allah as spoken by the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) which tells you the way Allah wishes you to live your life. If this is correct wouldn't it be reasonable to suspect that you could use the Koran as a guide to predict your chance of making it into Allah's heavenly kindom? I mean either you follow the Koran and Allah's glories are yours or you don't and He does not allow you passage correct?

We can only enter to heaven by the mercy of Allah because whatever we did in this life we are not perfect enough to deserve heaven directly.

We just try to obey him as he wanted us to be so then the last decision will be in the hereafter but not in this life.

TashaN · Dec 27, 2005

Majikthise said:
What about the 70 virgins?

??? :sarcastic

robtex · Dec 27, 2005

Majikthise said:
What about the 70 virgins?

Majikthise I don't think very many muslims buy into the 70 virgins theory. To my knowledge that is nowhere in the koran but was adopted by a small small minority of the Islamic population.

Majikthise · Dec 27, 2005

robtex said:
Majikthise I don't think very many muslims buy into the 70 virgins theory. To my knowledge that is nowhere in the koran but was adopted by a small small minority of the Islamic population.

Just wondering if that was actually real.

YmirGF · Dec 27, 2005

robtex said:
Now that you have made this claim why do you make this claim? What is the reason for your answer and because I am a tad confused by your notion of life after death do you believe in any afterlife?

Hiya Robtex,

I will not insult your intelligence, but it is rather unlikely many would understand what I meant. Perhaps advanced meditators would understand. (I have meditated for over three decades now... even the dullest folks make some progress in that time frame. LOL. Even this dullard.)

I have read my original reply a few times, and I stand by it.

Why do I claim this. Well, it is true for one, even if it is true just for me. It is my feeling that you are going to see more claims like this in the relatively near future, as people like me come out of their self imposed silence. Why? That is simple Robtex, I may be one of the first who can actually describe, somewhat accurately, what they perceive, stipped of religious bafflegab.

I will never cross the line an insist my beliefs ARE reality. That is for others to decide, and that is what makes my "message" different. I don't care if anyone believes a word I say, though you may be wise to try to understand my meaning.

Afterlife? Yeah, yeah... it is just a continuation. Nothing more. It's not even that big a deal.

ChrisP · Dec 27, 2005

robtex said:
Why do you reject it's existance now?

I have decided I do not believe the bible "as is". My experiences of the spiritual while meditating have convinced me that the spiritual things in this world are not as described in the bible. I am still young (going on 25, is that young?) and only started focussing on spiritual meditation (as opposed to relaxational) about 6 months ago. Like YmirGF I find it difficult to eloqute.

Why do you feel you would not go there?

Because if it exists I don't believe in Yahweh, also according the doctrine outlined in the NT I sin repeadtedly every day with no remorse. Plus I'm not baptised, which according to the way I read the bible, this is the same as being a sinner.

Scuba Pete · Dec 27, 2005

robtex said:
ND love is an emotion. If you choose a word like "Godly Love" and change the meaning to be something other than an emotion you have made a new word or phrase that has no correlation to the original word you borrowed from to make the new word or phrase.

Robtex,
I respect you more than most on this board. However, don't feel that your's is the only definition of love on the planet. Mine has LITTLE to do with emotion and lots more to do with ACTION. In fact EMOTION without ACTION is hollow.

John 15:9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruitfruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17 This is my command: Love each other. NIV

Is it possible that you are confusing affection for what I refer to as love?

I lOVED my daughter when I changed her diapers. There was no emotion to it. I LOVED my son when I correct him. I surely don't feel any warm fuzzies here. I LOVE my wife by remaining faithful. This is a decision to be with NO ONE ELSE. Emotions wax and wane, but real love, Godly love endures white hot for ever.

Popeyesays · Dec 27, 2005

robtex said:
How is that answer different than a "heaven is a spirtual place?"

Because "spiritual place" implies a location where heaven is and it is not elsewhere.
Heaven is a state of being, not a place. One does not "go there", one IS in that state of being - notravel - physical or spiritual required- its not a "here" because that imlies a "there".

Regards,
Scott

ChrisP · Dec 27, 2005

Popeyesays said:
Because "spiritual place" implies a location where heaven is and it is not elsewhere.
Heaven is a state of being, not a place. One does not "go there", one IS in that state of being - notravel - physical or spiritual required- its not a "here" because that imlies a "there".

Regards,
Scott

That's how I feel it too. It's definitely a state of energy.

robtex · Dec 27, 2005

ChrisP said:
That's how I feel it too. It's definitely a state of energy.

What kind of energy ? Is the energy measurable if so how?

ChrisP · Dec 27, 2005

robtex said:
What kind of energy ? Is the energy measurable if so how?

I'm unsure what kind of energy it is. But it feels like it glows out from your core and premeates your whole body. . . It's like a mist of white filled with every conceivable colour. You can feel the energy doing the same thing out of everything else as well. When it first onsets I experience a kind of euphoria, though not the same as a drug induced euphoria. It runs much deeper than that, through the whole body instead of just superficially.

I don't know if it would be measurable, but I've never felt it ebb and flow. It appears to just. . . be.

Peace · Dec 28, 2005

robtex said:
You lost me. I thought the Koran is the word of Allah as spoken by the prophet Mohammad (pbuh) which tells you the way Allah wishes you to live your life. If this is correct wouldn't it be reasonable to suspect that you could use the Koran as a guide to predict your chance of making it into Allah's heavenly kindom? I mean either you follow the Koran and Allah's glories are yours or you don't and He does not allow you passage correct?

Yes robtex, the Quran that was revealed to Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him is the word of God that has guidance and contains a complete way of life that if we do follow it we will be the dwellers of heaven for sure. I am doing my best to follow the Quran and the sunnah of the Prophet pbuh. But just for your information, we Muslims can't say for sure we are going to heaven, for it is up to our work on this earth. However, we are so greedy and looking for His Mercy since His mercy is endless and knows no limits.

Peace

Peace · Dec 28, 2005

The Truth said:
We can only enter to heaven by the mercy of Allah because whatever we did in this life we are not perfect enough to deserve heaven directly.

We just try to obey him as he wanted us to be so then the last decision will be in the hereafter but not in this life.

True...

Peace

Quiddity · Dec 28, 2005

NetDoc said:
Robtex,
I respect you more than most on this board. However, don't feel that your's is the only definition of love on the planet. Mine has LITTLE to do with emotion and lots more to do with ACTION. In fact EMOTION without ACTION is hollow.

John 15:9 "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11 I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12 My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command. 15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruitfruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17 This is my command: Love each other. NIV

Is it possible that you are confusing affection for what I refer to as love?

I lOVED my daughter when I changed her diapers. There was no emotion to it. I LOVED my son when I correct him. I surely don't feel any warm fuzzies here. I LOVE my wife by remaining faithful. This is a decision to be with NO ONE ELSE. Emotions wax and wane, but real love, Godly love endures white hot for ever.

Good job of explaining ND...

robtex · Dec 28, 2005

ChrisP said:
I'm unsure what kind of energy it is. But it feels like it glows out from your core and premeates your whole body. . . It's like a mist of white filled with every conceivable colour. You can feel the energy doing the same thing out of everything else as well. When it first onsets I experience a kind of euphoria, though not the same as a drug induced euphoria. It runs much deeper than that, through the whole body instead of just superficially.

I don't know if it would be measurable, but I've never felt it ebb and flow. It appears to just. . . be.

Visible colors. Great, so where is heaven than?

robtex · Dec 28, 2005

YmirGF said:
Hiya Robtex,
Why do I claim this. Well, it is true for one, even if it is true just for me. It is my feeling that you are going to see more claims like this in the relatively near future, as people like me come out of their self imposed silence. Why? That is simple Robtex, I may be one of the first who can actually describe, somewhat accurately, what they perceive, stipped of religious bafflegab.

Which sense(s) do you percieve it with?

YmirGF said:
I will never cross the line an insist my beliefs ARE reality. That is for others to decide, and that is what makes my "message" different. I don't care if anyone believes a word I say, though you may be wise to try to understand my meaning.

If they are not reality than are they fantasy? Your intrepretation of reality or your desire of what you want your reality to be? If it is your interepretation of reality, based again on what preception you have made? If it is a desired reality or a fantasy what is the need driving this?

Click to expand...

ChrisP · Dec 29, 2005

robtex said:
Visible colors. Great, so where is heaven than?

No the colours are not visible they're felt as part of the golden/white mist. I shouldn't have tried to explain, it's an impossible task. It's one of those things that has to be experienced to be understood.

I don't believe in the Heaven you're speaking of. I already voted as such.

Muhhamad Abdul Salam · Jan 1, 2006

robtex said:
1) Is there a heaven, and if so why do you percieve there to be one? If not why not?

2) If you percieve one to exist did you vote that you will go? and Why or why not?

3) If you percieve of heaven to exist is a physical or spirtual only and why do you feel the way you do?

There is a without a doubt a Heaven as is written in the Holy Qur'an. I voted that I will go because according to the Holy Qur'an one must believe in God and act righteously in order to enter Paradise but it is also written that although people will go to Gehenna to suffer they will, eventually, be brought into Paradise by Allah after their sentence is fulfilled. Heaven is a physical place as described in the Holy Qur'an; it will be filled with lush gardens and streams of milk, honey, and wine. Its inhabitants will be given servants and mansions were they will relax on silk couches. In short, every splendor imaginable and unimaginable will be there to be had.

joeboonda · Jan 2, 2006

robtex said:
A person in my atheist email group posted this link:

http://abcnews.go.com/2020/Beliefs/story?id=1422658

Putting it into the constraints of this poll the questions are rewords as such

a) Non-belief in heaven
b) Belief in heaven and you will go to heaven. Heaven is a physical place
c) Belief in heaven and you will go to heaven. Heaven is a spirtual place only
d) Belief in heaven and you will not go to heaven. Heaven is a physical place
e) Belief in heaven you will not go there. Heaven is a spirtual place only

Of the three questions were asked in which are in the poll.

1) Is there a heaven, and if so why do you percieve there to be one? If not why not?

2) If you percieve one to exist did you vote that you will go? and Why or why not?

3) If you percieve of heaven to exist is a physical or spirtual only and why do you feel the way you do?

I believe in Heaven cuz Jesus said so.

I belive I will go because I have trusted Jesus to wash away my sins and impute his righteousness unto me as a free gift and he has sealed me unto the day of redemption by His Holy Spirit, adopted me into his family, and I am God's child, whom he corrects but never casts out nor leaves nor forsakes, that nothing is greater than God's love, and nothing can pluck me out of his hand for nothing is greater than God including me.

I believe in a physical Heaven cuz Jesus said he went to prepare a place for us, that there are many mansions, that where he is we may be also, so its a place a real place.

Debate about Heaven

Voting options on Heaven

I am voting for option A

I am voting for option B

I am voting for option C

I am voting for option D

I am voting for option E

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