• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

the right religion

1robin

Christian/Baptist
wait, you measure and quantify whether you have met the standard for being born again by how you feel?
If the experience matches what the bible suggests then yes. Feelings have a great part in this determination.

until what happens?
how you feel?
I can only say that it is impossible to describe.

that isn't true at all...many people become aware of how their subconscious affects ones behavior and outlook without the holy spirit
i was not discussing the sub concious. Without God only symptoms can be dealt with and the root cause is left un effected. Which is why no one evr gets well in psychology they just manage symptoms. They don't buy those million dollar mansions on two or three sessions and then a cure.


i have a theory as to why you can't..
Good

which is why the god experience is a subjective experience
No more than the feeling of getting relief from pain when a shot of morophine kicks is. I guess morophine is a subjective substance.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I'm still waiting...:popcorn:
Thanks for the reminder. Sorry I forgot. I have dealt with these kinds of issues many times and they take a considerable amount of time to get all the facts. I have to find a long enough period of freee time to spend in the effort. Let me ask something if I clear up all the contradictions you posted what would that change. No one in these forums ever changes their mind. Apparantly answers do not matter.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
If the experience matches what the bible suggests then yes. Feelings have a great part in this determination.
then perhaps the bible is suggestive...

I can only say that it is impossible to describe.
gee i wonder why..?
it's not because it's a subjective experience, is it?

i was not discussing the sub concious. Without God only symptoms can be dealt with and the root cause is left un effected. Which is why no one evr gets well in psychology they just manage symptoms. They don't buy those million dollar mansions on two or three sessions and then a cure.
yes you were you said:
years of guilt that you were not even aware of before

you still haven't shown me what one can do as a born again that a non believer can't do...morally, ethically, physically, emotionally
anything and everything is possible, even without god.

No more than the feeling of getting relief from pain when a shot of morophine kicks is. I guess morophine is a subjective substance.
actually, morphine is real...feelings are not necessarily something one can trust as being real...as an adult, i have grown to learn this important lesson.
 
These are the only ones who will recieve grace--1 John 2:17,Matt 7:21
Considering that the bible says no one can do anything apart from God (John 15:5, John 5:19), those that do the will of God would, technically, be everyone, since everyone is constantly doing something. In which case, everyone would receive said grace. :)
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Considering that the bible says no one can do anything apart from God (John 15:5, John 5:19), those that do the will of God would, technically, be everyone, since everyone is constantly doing something. In which case, everyone would receive said grace. :)
What you are refering to is God's passive or permissive will. In other worlds he wills to allow things to happen. So when an evil act is commited God's will may be to allow it but that does not mean that what was done was desireable or what God would have liked to have been done.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Considering that the bible says no one can do anything apart from God (John 15:5, John 5:19), those that do the will of God would, technically, be everyone, since everyone is constantly doing something. In which case, everyone would receive said grace. :)

Well either this teaching from Gods word is wrong or you are wrong---- Enter through the narrow gate, because cramped is the road leading off into life( eternal), broad and spacious the path leading to destruction, many are on it.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
Do you want to elaborate? This kind of sounds like a JW doctrine, I'm not sure that's what you were getting at. I mean I believe in a resurrection, too. I just don't believe people will be able to recognize Jesus Christ as their Savior after they're resurrected.


Jesus will be ruling as King at that point--how will they not know him?
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
You works guys must go to seminars. You use exactly the same few inadequite and insuffecient verses.

Matthew 7:21-23

King James Version (KJV)

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
1 John 2:17

King James Version (KJV)

17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Before we get into this I noticed that you and every other works person avoids like the plague the questions I asked. You may respond in a PM if you wish. I will not share what you say if you desire. I also need to know what it is you think these verses mean specifically and how would you ever know which category you were in until it was too late.

Selah,

The verses mean what they say-- only those who live now to do the will of God will enter his kingdom( eternal life)
If he were just handing grace out by someone saying i believe--- the words of Matt 7:21-23 wouldnt be true--Or this truth--Enter through the narrow gate, because cramped is the road leading off into life( eternal) Few will find it. There are over 2 billion who believe. I would say the #1 requirement is to be serving the only true God that Jesus mentioned at John 17:1-6--His God and Father= Jehovah.
 
What you are refering to is God's passive or permissive will. In other worlds he wills to allow things to happen. So when an evil act is commited God's will may be to allow it but that does not mean that what was done was desireable or what God would have liked to have been done.

Well either this teaching from Gods word is wrong or you are wrong---- Enter through the narrow gate, because cramped is the road leading off into life( eternal), broad and spacious the path leading to destruction, many are on it.
With regards to God's will and it's outworking through creation, I invite you both to revisit post #2252. :)
 

camanintx

Well-Known Member
Thanks for the reminder. Sorry I forgot. I have dealt with these kinds of issues many times and they take a considerable amount of time to get all the facts. I have to find a long enough period of freee time to spend in the effort. Let me ask something if I clear up all the contradictions you posted what would that change. No one in these forums ever changes their mind. Apparantly answers do not matter.
It probably wouldn't change anything since my disbelief is not based on biblical contradictions. I'm just curious how you resolve them.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Will the real religion please stand up?

Jesus did stand up, and his teachings have withstood the test of time.
Jesus is not literally here today to stand up, but nothing can stop his 'standing-up followers' from proclaiming the good news of God's kingdom on an international scale just as it is being done today, just as Jesus said it would be.-Matthew 24 v 14.

The resurrected heavenly Jesus will soon 'stand up' [Daniel 12 v 1] in a significant way.
Jesus, as king of God's kingdom [Daniel 2 v 44] will be 'Commander in Chief' [Hail to the Chief!] of angelic armies to rid the earth of wickedness.

- Revelation 19 vs 11,14,15; Isaiah 11 vs 3,4; Psalm 92 v 7
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Jesus did stand up, and his teachings have withstood the test of time.
Jesus is not literally here today to stand up, but nothing can stop his 'standing-up followers' from proclaiming the good news of God's kingdom on an international scale just as it is being done today, just as Jesus said it would be.-Matthew 24 v 14.

The resurrected heavenly Jesus will soon 'stand up' [Daniel 12 v 1] in a significant way.
Jesus, as king of God's kingdom [Daniel 2 v 44] will be 'Commander in Chief' [Hail to the Chief!] of angelic armies to rid the earth of wickedness.

- Revelation 19 vs 11,14,15; Isaiah 11 vs 3,4; Psalm 92 v 7

not according to mark

14:61...Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

guess what? the high priest died.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
The verses mean what they say-- only those who live now to do the will of God will enter his kingdom( eternal life)
If he were just handing grace out by someone saying i believe--- the words of Matt 7:21-23 wouldnt be true--Or this truth--Enter through the narrow gate, because cramped is the road leading off into life( eternal) Few will find it. There are over 2 billion who believe. I would say the #1 requirement is to be serving the only true God that Jesus mentioned at John 17:1-6--His God and Father= Jehovah.


No matter what requirements you list as serving the one true God you will never perfectly obey them. Jesus came to forgive our sins that result from our imperfection. How many sins? All of them past present and future. Yes we should serve God but if you think attempting to obey law will get you into heaven there is no hope for all have sined and fallen short. If any man claims to be without (perfectly obedient) he is a liar and the truth is not in him. There is not even a hypothetical works based salvation system that could be imagined. It is impossible. If you can tell me exactly how you think we get to heaven. Your standards will either be so liberal as to be meaningless or so strict as to codemn everyone and arbitrary either way. That is why Jesus said to believe on his name and you will be saved.
 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
No matter what requirements you list as serving the one true God you will never perfectly obey them. Jesus came to forgive our sins that result from our imperfection. How many sins? All of them past present and future. Yes we should serve God but if you think attempting to obey law will get you into heaven there is no hope for all have sined and fallen short. If any man claims to be without (perfectly obedient) he is a liar and the truth is not in him. There is not even a hypothetical works based salvation system that could be imagined. It is impossible. If you can tell me exactly how you think we get to heaven. Your standards will either be so liberal as to be meaningless or so strict as to codemn everyone and arbitrary either way. That is why Jesus said to believe on his name and you will be saved.


Jesus came to forgive repented sin( Acts 3:19) repentence is the sttopping of the doing of sins. Also one needs to listen carefully to Jesus at Matt 7:21-23--He said--Get away from me you workers of iniquity( practicers of sin)( these believe on Jesus) Practiced sin is not forgiven. ---- Yes all sin, but there are lists of gross sins that are totally unacceptable and makes one wicked in the eyes of God--here are some--1 cor 6:9-11--Galations 5.
 
Jesus came to forgive repented sin( Acts 3:19) repentence is the sttopping of the doing of sins. Also one needs to listen carefully to Jesus at Matt 7:21-23--He said--Get away from me you workers of iniquity( practicers of sin)( these believe on Jesus) Practiced sin is not forgiven. ---- Yes all sin, but there are lists of gross sins that are totally unacceptable and makes one wicked in the eyes of God--here are some--1 cor 6:9-11--Galations 5.
See, it's this sort of thing that makes me wonder increasingly about the whole Jesus thing. One minute the bible claims he's the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. A pretty definitive statement that screams "Case Closed" ("it is finished", as Jesus supposedly said).

Then, the next minute, just when you're led to believe Jesus took care of it, the bible makes a contradictory claim that no -- it's actually up to the individual to take away his own sin, which evidently resisted the power of Jesus's alleged sacrifice on the cross and which was never actually taken away (as previously advertised).

One minute, Jesus is our savior. The next minute, we are our savior.

Know what? I'm thinking there was never really anything for which God needed to forgive us. I think that's the religious spirit trying to persuade mankind that God made a faulty product, for the purpose of making God look bad. Because you cannot preach (and be taken seriously) an all-powerful deity and His having created beings that are so flawed He had to have his son slaughtered to make up for it.

An all-powerful, omniscient deity would know well enough in advance to avoid setting the stage for such offense in the first place if He knew it would bother Him that much.:yes:



 

kjw47

Well-Known Member
See, it's this sort of thing that makes me wonder increasingly about the whole Jesus thing. One minute the bible claims he's the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. A pretty definitive statement that screams "Case Closed" ("it is finished", as Jesus supposedly said).

Then, the next minute, just when you're led to believe Jesus took care of it, the bible makes a contradictory claim that no -- it's actually up to the individual to take away his own sin, which evidently resisted the power of Jesus's alleged sacrifice on the cross and which was never actually taken away (as previously advertised).

One minute, Jesus is our savior. The next minute, we are our savior.

Know what? I'm thinking there was never really anything for which God needed to forgive us. I think that's the religious spirit trying to persuade mankind that God made a faulty product, for the purpose of making God look bad. Because you cannot preach (and be taken seriously) an all-powerful deity and His having created beings that are so flawed He had to have his son slaughtered to make up for it.

An all-powerful, omniscient deity would know well enough in advance to avoid setting the stage for such offense in the first place if He knew it would bother Him that much.:yes:


God isnt omniscient--that is a false teaching. We have all been dignified with free will, its not auto fate, its how we choose to live and which path we will choose to walk. The problem with 99% of all religions that claim christianity is that they do not listen to Jesus. But persay they are saying--here is Jesus--There is Jesus and he is not there because they refuse to listen to him.
Jesus came to buy back what Adam lost for mankind and yes to forgive repented sin. And for that sacrafice he recieved a kingship for 1000 years and a bride-144,000.
 
God isnt omniscient--that is a false teaching.
Sorry, a so-called god who is not omniscient is not a god.

Again, you seem to have missed the boatload of verses in post #2252 that suggest that God not only foresees things, He foreordains them as well.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Jesus came to forgive repented sin( Acts 3:19) repentence is the sttopping of the doing of sins.
So if we become sinlessly perfect then we are good to go huh? Then what did Christ go through all that trouble for? I guess you must be the one perfect human to reach sinlessness besides Christ.
Also one needs to listen carefully to Jesus at Matt 7:21-23--He said--Get away from me you workers of iniquity( practicers of sin)( these believe on Jesus) Practiced sin is not forgiven. ----
What does practiced mean once a year, once a month, once a week, or a day? No matter where you draw that line it is arbitrary and the guy who commited one more sin than your arbitrary standard goes to hell and the one who commited one less goes to heaven. That is a very unjust and silly standard.The schizophrenia of a works based system renders it useless and would never result in the assurance of salvation that is required for missionary work, facing death as a marytr, or even witnessing. Mathew did not mean what you claim.

I never knew you - That is, I never approved of your conduct; never loved you; never regarded you as my friends. See Psalm 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 Corinthians 8:3. This proves that, with all their pretensions, they had never been true followers of Christ. Jesus will not then say to false prophets and false professors of religion that he had once known them and then rejected them; that they had been once Christians and then had fallen away; that they had been pardoned and then had apostatized but that he had never known them - they had never been true christians
Matthew 7:23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

If I become born again that means Christ knows me and no one will pluck me out of his hands nor will he lose even one true born again Christian but raise him up on the last day. If he later said he never knew us after he saved us he would be a liar. This kind of works teaching has detroyed the faith and hope of more young Christians than any other. It is also arrogant, disrespectful of Christ, and justifies boasting. Works does not nor can it ever possibly work.




Yes all sin, but there are lists of gross sins that are totally unacceptable and makes one wicked in the eyes of God--here are some--1 cor 6:9-11--Galations 5.
Yes all sin except the ones you choose. All except some, that is schophrenic contradiction which is what inevitable arrises when someone distorts scripture. The bible is full of rules, the levitical law has over 600 alone I think. No matter what rules and laws you claim are the standard you will never perfectly obey them. The disobedience in the least sin is a wicked act. That is why Christ is required to substitute his rightousness for ours as well taking on our guilt. The Christ you describe is impotent and apparently didn't die quite enough to be able to overcome our predicament. He needs our help. Since the bible makes it very clear we will never earn heaven and you say Christ wasn't enough we are all screwed in your system.

Have you ever read of Martin Luther. He was about as obedient as a human could ever be. He punished himself for sin, sought misery to better appreciate Christ's suffering, and he repented about every 30 minutes. However he said he never felt worthy or loved by God until his rector told him the simple truth that Jesus came to free us from the law that we could never keep. He said that later he asked Christ into his heart and felt as if the doors to paradise had been opened.

Another is Paul, he was as devoted and obedient as possible and Israel's greatest expert on the law but after he met Christ he knew he had been wrong and lost all that time. He then went on to write more about grace than any other biblical author.

I notice you never did answer my questions whether you are a catholic and whether you are born again. That is very typical of the works salvation crowd.
 
Top