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Women still paid less than men for the same work

dust1n

Zindīq
Yeah, it really does. Feminism is the belief that women are equal to men. Opposing that belief is the very definition of misogyny.

I don't know about that. Considering the sheer number of feminist theories, many of them are antithetical to themselves.

One could, potentially, for example, believe that women are more or less as equal to women, at least in terms of civil laws.

It's too broad of a term, I think, because there are a number of reasons why someone might consider themselves anti-feminist for reasons that feminists themselves disagree with feminists, e.g. pornography, or prostitution, or SCUM manifesto. If the reason someone declared themselves anti-feminist for the reason that feminism advocates pornography, something that that person and other feminists would agree to be patriarchal, than the intentions are a little more clear.

I could see cases and contexts in which anti-feminist would have little to do with misogyny, though I would be skeptical. Clear, concise words can often lead to all sorts of conclusions.

I mean, I could be anti-feminist because I believe that women should have more rights than men, and that would be non-misogynistic.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
I don't know about that. Considering the sheer number of feminist theories, many of them are antithetical to themselves.

One could, potentially, for example, believe that women are more or less as equal to women, at least in terms of civil laws.

It's too broad of a term, I think, because there are a number of reasons why someone might consider themselves anti-feminist for reasons that feminists themselves disagree with feminists, e.g. pornography, or prostitution, or SCUM manifesto. If the reason someone declared themselves anti-feminist for the reason that feminism advocates pornography, something that that person and other feminists would agree to be patriarchal, than the intentions are a little more clear.

I could see cases and contexts in which anti-feminist would have little to do with misogyny, though I would be skeptical. Clear, concise words can often lead to all sorts of conclusions.

I mean, I could be anti-feminist because I believe that women should have more rights than men, and that would be non-misogynistic.
OK, good point.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
George Costanza is the ultimate feminist.
When danger strikes, he does not place the safety of women above men.
Selfless he is not, but neither is he sexist.

[youtube]_u1cbZTwBx4[/youtube]
Seinfeld - George and the fire - YouTube
Embedding disabled by request.

Anyway, I don't think selfishness can be hailed as lack of bigotry.

That said, my favorite representation of feminism would be the reboot of Battlestar Galactica. Gender simply wasn't an issue. It was all about the person.
 

dust1n

Zindīq
OK, good point.

Thanks. :D Though, I would remain wholly suspicious of anyone who said they were anti-feminist. The chances of them thinking the pro-pornography feminism actually hurts women, and thus considering themselves anti-feminist as opposed to another type of feminism seems low.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Embedding disabled by request.

Anyway, I don't think selfishness can be hailed as lack of bigotry.

That said, my favorite representation of feminism would be the reboot of Battlestar Galactica. Gender simply wasn't an issue. It was all about the person.
Yeh, Starbuck was awesome.

Some people got mad that he was a she now.

kara_starbuck_thrace1.jpeg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-W8DejKr_9.../8pSfYHxx8p8/s1600/kara_starbuck_thrace1.jpeg
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
One of my favorite moments is when she punches Apollo, and he slugs her right back - I cheered, stopped and thought about the gender issues (or lack thereof), and cheered again!
I don't remember the details, but that sounds familiar. I recall liking it.

The boxing match episode was good in that area as well.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
OK, just dug this up. Apparently the entire premise of our debate on this thread is in error - women are NOT paid 77 cents for every dollar a man earns FOR THE SAME WORK:

FactCheck.org : Obama’s 77-Cent Exaggeration

A TV spot from the president’s reelection committee says women are “paid 77 cents on the dollar for doing the same work as men.” That’s not true. The ad falsely states that the pay gap is for doing “the same work.” It also implies that discrimination by employers is responsible for the difference. That’s an exaggeration..

The main point of the ad is to tout Obama’s signing of the Lilly Ledbetter Fair Pay Act in 2009. It was the first bill he signed into law, just nine days after he took office. The ad’s title is “First Law.” The legislation relaxed the statute of limitations governing when women could sue employers over alleged pay discrimination.

How Wide a Gap?

The ad cites the most recent annual Census Bureau findings on median annual income, released last September. And indeed, Census concluded that in 2010, “the earnings of women who worked full time, year-round were 77 percent of that for men working full time, year-round.”

But that’s the median (midpoint) for all women in all jobs, not for women doing “the same work” or even necessarily working the same number of hours. Furthermore, the raw gap for all women is not quite as large when looking at weekly earnings rather than yearly earnings.

Last year, looking at weekly earnings, the Labor Department put the figure at 81 cents on the dollar for 2010. It found that the median weekly earnings for women working full time at jobs paying a wage or salary was $669, compared with $824 for men. And although all these workers had normal work weeks of at least 35 hours (the minimum for “full time”), the Labor Department study noted that, for whatever reason, “men were more likely than women to have a longer workweek.”

And things have improved a bit for women since then. The median weekly figure was 82 cents for the first three months of this year, continuing a long trend to a narrower gender pay gap.

Breaking last year’s figures down by occupation, the Institute for Women’s Policy Research showed women doing the “same work” (that is, within the same occupational groupings) often make much more than 77 percent of their male counterparts’ median weekly earnings. The IWPR is affiliated with the graduate program in Public Policy and Women’s Studies at the George Washington University and says it seeks “to address the needs of women.”

The IWPR study found that “median earnings are lower than men’s in nearly all occupations.” But for the most part, the gap for “the same work” is not as wide as Obama’s figure suggests. Of the 36 different occupational categories in the study, in only seven were women paid 77 percent of the pay of men or less.

Female bookkeeping clerks and stock clerks actually made slightly more than their male counterparts, for example. Registered nurses made nearly 96 percent, elementary and middle school teachers made 91 percent, secondary school teachers made 94 percent, and police officers made 99 percent.

There’s wide variation, to be sure. Female chief executives still make only 69 percent, and female financial managers make just 66 percent, of their male counterparts’ earnings. And this study didn’t find enough female electricians, construction workers, grounds maintenance workers, carpenters or auto mechanics to make a valid comparison.

How Much Discrimination?

And however wide or narrow the gap, discrimination by employers isn’t responsible for all of it. In fact, a women’s pay specialist in Obama’s own Department of Labor — even as she was arguing that pay discrimination is not a “myth” — said research shows discrimination accounts for less than half of the raw pay gap.

Pamela Coukos, a senior program adviser at the Office of Federal Contract Compliance Programs, wrote in the Labor Department’s “official blog”:

Pamela Coukos, June 7, 2012: Economists generally attribute about 40% of the pay gap to discrimination – making about 60% explained by differences between workers or their jobs.

Similarly, an economist and a researcher at the Federal Reserve Bank of St. Louis said last year that the economic literature indicates the actual pay gap between men and women with similar characteristics is “much lower” than the raw gap. Despite the gains in recent decades, they wrote:

Natalia Kolesnikova and Yang Liu, October 2011: Men are more likely to be lawyers, doctors and business executives, while women are more likely to be teachers, nurses and office clerks. This gender occupational segregation might be a primary factor behind the wage gap.

Economists have identified a host of factors — other than discrimination by employers — that lead to lower earnings for women. These include such things as women choosing to work fewer overtime hours, choosing jobs that offer more “family friendly” fringe benefits in lieu of higher pay, and choosing to leave the workforce for years to rear children. Whether these choices are voluntary, or unfairly forced on women by society, is a good question. But they are not discrimination by employers.

How much of the gap is due to outright employer discrimination continues to be a subject of lively debate, which we won’t presume to settle here. Even a study prepared for the Bush administration’s Labor Department, and released the week before Obama took office, stopped short of concluding that discrimination isn’t holding down women’s pay at least somewhat.

That study, by CONSAD Research Corp., concluded that it wasn’t possible to say precisely how much of the raw pay gap is explained by factors other than discrimination. But it added:

CONSAD study, January 12, 2009: Nevertheless, it can confidently be concluded that, collectively, those factors [not due to discrimination by employers] account for a major portion and, possibly, almost all of the raw gender wage gap.

So whether factors other than discrimination account for 60 percent of the gap, as the Obama administration official states, or “almost” all of it, as the Bush-era study concluded, the research points to some remaining anti-female bias by employers.

But the president was flatly wrong to say that women are paid 77 percent of the pay of men for the “same work.” And the fact that women’s median annual earnings are 77 percent of men’s isn’t all or even mostly due to discrimination, as the ad implies.

– Brooks Jackson

POSTED BY BROOKS JACKSON ON FRIDAY, JUNE 22, 2012 AT 9:17 AM FILED UNDER THE FACTCHECK WIRE. TAGGED WITH BARACK OBAMA, LILLY LEDBETTER, PAY.
 
I've no problem with women getting equal pay. It seems there are some who don't want women in the work force at all. Second class citizens ?
Probably worse than that. If some had their way they would hurl women back to chattle property or else large income provided, turn them into mannequin looking stepford wifes like Newt Gingrich's arm ornament.
Its just terrible! Poor women who want to leave their children to work cannot do so without equal pay. They go into nursing, health care fields because they miss being the way women naturally are, and seek such caring fields even though in them wages are less. Women engineers and mechanics are paid the same as male ones, but few women want them; they are not like men and really have no natural inclination to compete with them for the dollar. They deep down know what the social activists ignore: they want to take better care of our children, and the children sure do need it! Look at the rate of addiction in our society and how the kids get fat, skip out of school before graduating, and then get hooked on something, whether electronic games or synthetic marijuana.
 
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