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Is the Gospel simple?

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
A "good exegetical look at the texts"/a good interpretation of the texts reveals not just that one verse, but why Mark took in hand(as the others) "to put in order that which is most suredly believed by us".
That's not what is being addressed here, though. We're addressing what Mark says the Good News is. and that is most assuredly far different from what Matthew says it is and what Luke says it is.
Yes, "the kingdom of GOD is at hand" today just as it was 2000 years ago. And all are in need of "Repenting"---returning to the Creator GOD of all things just as Mark and the other writers expressed in their writings.
That's not the message of either Matthew or Luke.
Jesus came to seek and to save those who were lost---not a sex class.
That's not what either you or I meant by "facts of life." "Jesus came to seek and to save those who were lost" is not the gospel message of Jesus, according to Mark.
those things Jesus taught were in fulfillment from the O.T. Prophets and Laws given by GOD.
Are they? apparently, the Jews don't think so.
Matthew and John were apart of the twelve who followed Jesus for the 3 1/2 years of Jesus ministry.
Matthew and John didn't write Matthew and John. Matthew and John were most likely illiterate. Plus, the two -- John especially -- were written too late for contemporaries of Jesus to have written them.
I believed the Scriptures as written.
None of the gospel texts mention who wrote them. What you believe are the scriptures as amended later on.
The specific word Sin may not be used in Mark's Gospel, but that doesn't mean equivelent words which have been labeled "SIN" aren't used in Mark. Indirectly and directly. See Mark 3:4; 7:1-23; 8:35
None of those references are the gospel Jesus preached.
The Book of Hebrews may be an epistle, but that "epistle" in 4:2 tells us that those who were at Sinai received the "Good News"/Gospel of Salvation/the entering into the ultimate rest the same as we. And that was the message Mark was giving in his written book.
Nope. Sorry.
Mark didn't contradict Jesus' message nor those other writers.
I didn't say he did. But what he did do was to present a certain take on Jesus' message.
That take needs to be separated out from the actual message, itself.
The faulty exegesis you spoke of initially and from/seen in your posts accounts for the erroneous conclusions.
I don't think you have a good enough grasp of the exegetical process to make that call.
True, but neither can one make that the main massage of the Book of Mark.
I didn't say it was.
Later addition from when?
Possibly around 160 c.e. (Mark was written in the 70s c.e.)
All these translated Versions express the same thought. KJV; NKJV; NLT; NIV; ESV; RVR; NASB; RSV; ASV; YLT; DBY; WEB; HNV.
You're whistling in the dark.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
"I am the way the truth and the life, no man cometh to the Father, but by ME."
There is no turning one's life around(Repentance) without the acknowledging that it is by the shed Blood of Jesus that one's SIN debt is paid. Once that is accomplished, and a total surrender of one's will is made then The FATHER'S Grace can be forthcoming. That is the message from Genesis to Revelation. (Mark's Gospel included.)
I'm sorry. Your answer is incorrect. But you won't be leaving us empty-handed. We have some lovely parting gifts for you, including the home version of our game: "Exegete Your Way Out of a Paper Bag."

Where are you getting this stuff? From "My First Big Picture Book of Mush Gospel?"
 
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sincerly

Well-Known Member
I'm sorry. Your answer is incorrect. But you won't be leaving us empty-handed. We have some lovely parting gifts for you, including the home version of our game: "Exegete Your Way Out of a Paper Bag."

Where are you getting this stuff? From "My First Big Picture Book of Mush Gospel?"

I'm getting "this stuff" from a "rightly dividing of the scriptures". You know a rightly exegeting. You know answering/exercising my "beliefs" just as everyone else.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
I'm getting "this stuff" from a "rightly dividing of the scriptures". You know a rightly exegeting. You know answering/exercising my "beliefs" just as everyone else.
except that it's not a good exegesis, as I've pointed out. Exegesis lets each text stand on its own merits. You would have many disparate texts absolutely depend upon each other for their meaning.
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
except that it's not a good exegesis, as I've pointed out. Exegesis lets each text stand on its own merits. You would have many disparate texts absolutely depend upon each other for their meaning.

No so!, A good exegesis includes the context as well as the textual verse. Also, what the Holy Spirit has inspired other writers to pen on the subject under examination.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
No so!, A good exegesis includes the context as well as the textual verse. Also, what the Holy Spirit has inspired other writers to pen on the subject under examination.
Of course, but in context of its own document -- especially when the writer of one document was unaware of the other documents involved.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
Javajo, I'm not sure whether you believe that I believe one can work their way into God's kingdom or were just stressing your belief???
I assure you that Cain couldn't do it and no one else has produced any "works" of their own "which will pay the sin debt." Death was the only acceptable payment---and that was by GOD'S SON( for the Repentant).(A plan that was put in effect "before the foundation of the earth".)
Hi. The following is all just my beliefs: I believe all that. I believe the Greek word for repent is metaneo, which simply means to change one's mind. So, we change our mind, we repent from how we think we can save ourselves by our own works of righteousness which are as filthy rags to a holy God as far as salvation is concerned, and we trust that the death of God's Son (for the believer) paid our sin debt. This is a free gift, we can not add one thing we do to earn, help earn, or help keep it or it is no longer a gift. I will add, those who have trusted Christ have repented or changed their mind about sin as well and because they are freely forgiven and saved forevermore to the uttermost because of what Christ has done, and because they are now children of God whom he corrects and guides, they should grow "in grace", and begin to overcome sin as they are conformed to the image of Christ, because they are already freely saved.
"Works" isn't a unsatisfactory/negative word when speaking of salvation however.
I believe it is if we say we are saved by our works, Jesus' work on the cross plus my good works equals salvation, nope. We are saved UNTO good works, not by them. Works are evidence of faith that is alive, a result of salvation, not a condition, that Christ gets all the glory and no one can boast.
There are the "works of righteous" which are contrasted with the "works which lead to damnation".
Again, for salvation, all our works of righteousness are as filthy rags.
One is to "Work out their own salvation" as Phil.2:12-13, says, "Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of [his] good pleasure."
Note that God is working in us, we are "working out" the salvation already in us, not like a math problem, but our works with awe and reverence and gratefulness are evidence of the salvation we already possess, as God is in us. To have the proper perspective on salvation and works, note these two verses and note the order:

8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith —and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Eph. 2 See, we HAVE ALREADY BEEN saved by faith as a gift, NOT of works lest any man should boast. We ARE God's work, created IN CHRIST so that therefore now we can do good works.

5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy...that those who have trusted in God may be careful to devote themselves to doing what is good. These things are excellent and profitable for everyone. Note, HE saved US, he does the saving and it is past tense, God SAVED us, we are already saved and not because of righteous works of our own, but purely by mercy and grace which is totally undeserved, unearned, unmerited credit. So, we who HAVE TRUSTED in God, we who HAVE BEEN FREELY SAVED, may do good works.
And Heb.12:1-2, confirms, "Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset [us], and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,"...
He is talking to saved believers here, so we may be better able to "run the race" or do the works God has for us to do. Note, the next passage says we are God's children whom he corrects. These are freely saved people who are growing in grace so they may better serve God.
2Pet.1:10, attests to that principle with this, "Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:"
In context Peter told them to add these other virtues to their faith, and that if someone does not have them, they are blind and have forgotten that they were already saved. Freely saved by faith, when we add these other virtues we have the assurance that we have been saved...by faith...unto good works.
Eph.2:10, followed the (2:8) which you quoted, "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."
Yes we are HIS workmanship, he did the saving and does the keeping. We are "in Christ" or as I say growing "in grace". The good works follow as a result of salvation.
Eph.1:4, explains those good works, "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:"
Notice he chose us from way back when. And I agree, Christians should live holy lives, not to get or stay saved, but because they have been bought with a price and as he is holy, so should we be.

Didn't Jesus say the greatest commandments were founded in LOVE to GOD and love to one's fellow Beings??
Yup, but for salvation, he said we must believe in him. For one who has been saved, if we love God and others, we are basically doing the works he has prepared for us and obeying his commands.
I believe the Scriptures.
Me, too.

Following Jesus in HIS teachings(And all that HE taught was given to HIM by the Father, as HE acknowledges)is a combination of that which you are saying to """Keep salvation separate from discipleship, growth and works".(The "works" of obedience by which GOD says one is to live in harmony with the creation HE made.)
The Epistles make it clear that we are not saved by our works, but by his finished work. Those who have been freely saved by believing in, trusting in, relying on Christ and his finished work of paying the penalty for our sin are now free and empowered to do the works God has for them. I will leave with one last passage:

Romans 4

Abraham's Faith Made Him Right With God

1 What should we say about those things? What did our father Abraham discover about being right with God? 2 Did he become right with God because of something he did? If so, he could brag about it. But he couldn't brag to God. 3 What do we find in Scripture? It says, "Abraham believed God. God accepted Abraham's faith, and so his faith made him right with God."—(Genesis 15:6) 4 When a man works, his pay is not considered a gift. It is owed to him. 5 But things are different with God. He makes evil people right with himself. If people trust in him, their faith is accepted even though they do not work. Their faith makes them right with God.
6 King David says the same thing. He tells us how blessed some people are. God makes those people right with himself. But they don't have to do anything in return. David says,

7 "Blessed are those
whose lawless acts are forgiven.
Blessed are those
whose sins are taken away.
8 Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord never counts against him." —(Psalm 32:1,2)
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Psalm 32:1,2

Jesus' faithful death makes possible sins to be forgiven [taken away]
That does not mean we are innocent, but like a Judge can pardon a person so the crime [sin] charges no longer stick. No longer stick for the repentant.- 2nd Peter 3 v 9

In order for sin Not to count against one, then repentant one would have to continue to remain free of committing the unforgivable sin. -Matthew 12 v 32; Hebrews 6 vs 4-6; 10 v 26

One would also have to avoid the deliberate practice of sin. The willful practice of sin.
In that way the forgiven sin would not count against him.

Eternal life is a free gift, but like a car warranty one must obey the manufacturer in order to benefit. We must obey our Creator in order to gain the benefit of gaining eternal life.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Eternal life is a free gift, but like a car warranty one must obey the manufacturer in order to benefit. We must obey our Creator in order to gain the benefit of gaining eternal life.
If that's the case, why did Jesus have to come? Why did Jesus have to die? If all we have to do is "obey the manufacturer," whose "terms" are given in the old covenant Law, why did we need a new covenant based on "Jesus dying for our sins?"
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
Psalm 32:1,2

Jesus' faithful death makes possible sins to be forgiven [taken away]
That does not mean we are innocent, but like a Judge can pardon a person so the crime [sin] charges no longer stick. No longer stick for the repentant.- 2nd Peter 3 v 9

In order for sin Not to count against one, then repentant one would have to continue to remain free of committing the unforgivable sin. -Matthew 12 v 32; Hebrews 6 vs 4-6; 10 v 26

One would also have to avoid the deliberate practice of sin. The willful practice of sin.
In that way the forgiven sin would not count against him.

Eternal life is a free gift, but like a car warranty one must obey the manufacturer in order to benefit. We must obey our Creator in order to gain the benefit of gaining eternal life.
I believe Jesus made us who were dead, alive, and paid the penalty for and forgave ALL our sins:

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Col. 2

The unpardonable sin was when the religious leaders attributed Jesus' miracle to Beelzebub, thus blaspheming the Holy Spirit. It cannot be repeated. Just one tiny little sin keeps anyone from eternal life, so we must have trusted Christ to have paid for ALL our sins and given us his righteousness, the righteousness of God to have eternal life. God corrects us when we disobey, he doesn't take back his free gift.

29 For God’s gifts and His call are irrevocable. [He never withdraws them when once they are given, and He does not change His mind about those to whom He gives His grace or to whom He sends His call.] Romans 11
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by sincerly
Not so!, A good exegesis includes the context as well as the textual verse. Also, what the Holy Spirit has inspired other writers to pen on the subject under examination

Of course, but in context of its own document -- especially when the writer of one document was unaware of the other documents involved.

Sojourner, The Israelite Prophets were in tune with the previous and contemporary prophets. Also, they were in touch with all the instructions given by GOD to Moses.----From one generation to the next.
GOD didn't leave the people in the dark not knowing HIS Will. That is why GOD kept sending Prophets with messages to "Repent and Obey"the Previous instructions. GOD Changeth not from the original principles. God doesn't need to Lie---as humans do/will.
Amos 3:7, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."
 

sincerly

Well-Known Member
Hi. The following is all just my beliefs: I believe all that. I believe the Greek word for repent is metaneo, which simply means to change one's mind. So, we change our mind, we repent from how we think we can save ourselves by our own works of righteousness which are as filthy rags to a holy God as far as salvation is concerned, and we trust that the death of God's Son (for the believer) paid our sin debt. This is a free gift, we can not add one thing we do to earn, help earn, or help keep it or it is no longer a gift. I will add, those who have trusted Christ have repented or changed their mind about sin as well and because they are freely forgiven and saved forevermore to the uttermost because of what Christ has done, and because they are now children of God whom he corrects and guides, they should grow "in grace", and begin to overcome sin as they are conformed to the image of Christ, because they are already freely saved.
I believe it is if we say we are saved by our works, Jesus' work on the cross plus my good works equals salvation, nope.

JavaJo,In this post you have not said anything which I hadn't already expressed concerning those who have genuinely Repented as is seen in 2Cor.7:8-12, "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."

God never takes away one's power of Choice----That is seen in the "abiding". Seven times in Rev.2+3, GOD'S People are told ""To him the overcometh"" from the first church age to the last church age(the called out of GOD'S People) they are the Saved.
The "simply means to change one's mind" can be as Paul in Galatians 2:17-21, "For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

That repenting again is necessary for each new sin just as 1John 1:8- 2:6 indicates.
As long as one is alive, one has that option to "Repent"("change one's mind") from Sinning or from following the LORD.
 

sojourner

Annoyingly Progressive Since 2006
Originally Posted by sincerly
Not so!, A good exegesis includes the context as well as the textual verse. Also, what the Holy Spirit has inspired other writers to pen on the subject under examination



Sojourner, The Israelite Prophets were in tune with the previous and contemporary prophets. Also, they were in touch with all the instructions given by GOD to Moses.----From one generation to the next.
GOD didn't leave the people in the dark not knowing HIS Will. That is why GOD kept sending Prophets with messages to "Repent and Obey"the Previous instructions. GOD Changeth not from the original principles. God doesn't need to Lie---as humans do/will.
Amos 3:7, "Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets."
Wait...
I thought the topic was gospel, which is, of necessity, limited to NT writings, specifically the gospels, themselves, except in cases where the epistle writer makes reference to Jesus' actual message of good news, or in cases where they, themselves, make their own proclamation based upon the Jesus Event. Why are you throwing OT stuff at me? The term "gospel" didn't even exist in those texts.
 

javajo

Well-Known Member
JavaJo,In this post you have not said anything which I hadn't already expressed concerning those who have genuinely Repented as is seen in 2Cor.7:8-12, "For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death."
Here's my beliefs: The matter which the Corinthian believers zealously wanted to be clear of was that in which the believer had had sex with his Dad's wife. Interestingly Paul told them in his first letter to turn him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh THAT HIS SOUL MAY BE SAVED. Also, in the second letter the fellow was restored back to fellowship and comforted. So, he did not lose his salvation, but he lost fellowship for a time and almost lost his life.

From the article below...
In 2 Corinthians 7 the word metanoeo is used in verse 9 and 10. Read verse 10 carefully. "For Godly sorry WORKETH repentance (metanoeo a change of mind) to salvation"...
Notice that "Godly sorrow" is not repentance but rather it works to repentance. In other words a person can become sorrowful of his sinful ways and then repent (change his mind about Christ.) Jesus Christ is always the object of salvation not turning away, refraining, quitting or whatever of sin. In Mark 1:15 Jesus said speaking to unbelievers in Galilee "Repent (metanoeo change your mind) and believe the Gospel." It tells us right here what we are to change our mind about. The Gospel, not our sins. He was speaking to unbelievers who did not believe the gospel. We are condemned because of unbelief not because of our sins:

God never takes away one's power of Choice----That is seen in the "abiding". Seven times in Rev.2+3, GOD'S People are told ""To him the overcometh"" from the first church age to the last church age(the called out of GOD'S People) they are the Saved.
Yes, freely saved believers still fall into sin and should turn from it, but God does not cast them out of the relationship but they do lose fellowship. When a child disobeys the parent, they are still their child, but the fellowship can be marred. Rev. 2-3 is to freely justified believers who fell into sin, like we all do and if we say we have no sin we are lying and the truth is not in us. Christians are to confess their sins and not let them have dominion over them, but that does not mean sinless perfection, for that will not occur until we are changed to sinless and immortal at the rapture. Also, the Bible tells us who overcometh, one who is born OF GOD by faith in Christ:

For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

The "simply means to change one's mind..."
First of all let’s understand what it does not mean so that we can grasp the true meaning.
1. It does not mean to turn away from sin.
2. It does not mean to quit sinning.
3. It does not mean to feel sorry for sin.
4. It does not mean to change your sinful ways before you can be saved.
5. It does not imply salvation.
6. It is not the means of forgiveness of sin.
7. It is not salvation nor does it imply that we should live a sinless life.
8. It does not imply sin.

1. Metanoeo. This is a compound word. “Meta” means change “noeo” means thinking. This word is derived from “nous” which means mind. So, metanoeo means to “change your mind”
2. Metamellamai. This is also a compound word. “Meta” means change
“mellamai” means emotions. It means to have a “change of emotions”.

See this article about what repent means, oh and btw, God repented a few times, too...he changed his mind: Hitland -"Repent: what does that mean?"

...can be as Paul in Galatians 2:17-21, "For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Wow, that was completely out of context. Paul was saying how he rebuked Peter and NOT to go back under the law (build what I destroyed) but to have simple faith in Christ. They needed to change their minds about how they were saved, by keeping the law or by faith in Christ. Here is the passage:

11 But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
12 For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
13 And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.
14 But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?
15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

That repenting again is necessary for each new sin just as 1John 1:8- 2:6 indicates. As long as one is alive, one has that option to "Repent"("change one's mind") from Sinning or from following the LORD.
One sin keeps one out of Heaven, so if we forget or die before confession is made, according to you, we are done for. No, salvation is a free gift, we are freely justified from all sin by faith in Christ. Christ said to repent and believe the Gospel. We change our mind and trust in Christ alone for salvation, for salvation is all from God to us, he does the free and undeserved saving, and he does the keeping. Then God works in our life and corrects us and we grow in grace and don't let sin have dominion over us. Repenting of sin does not save, it is repenting and changing one's mind about Christ and trusting him that saves. Of course when we trust Christ we are admitting we are a hopelessly lost sinner in need of salvation so we are aware of and sorry for sin, and we don't want to nor should we let sin reign over us. Ok, 'nuff said.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Here's my beliefs: The matter which the Corinthian believers zealously wanted to be clear of was that in which the believer had had sex with his Dad's wife. Interestingly Paul told them in his first letter to turn him over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh THAT HIS SOUL MAY BE SAVED. Also, in the second letter the fellow was restored back to fellowship and comforted. So, he did not lose his salvation, but he lost fellowship for a time and almost lost his life.
Why would him being killed in the flesh save his soul exactly? Does this mean if he didn't stop and carried on that he would not be saved? Does this mean anyone who commits any crime will be saved if he is killed? Explain your take on this extremely ambiguous verse.

Also can you please quote the verse you refer to in 2 Corinthians where it specifically says he is restored and didn't lose out on attaining salvation, I must have forgotten it.

And what's the dfifference between fellowship and Salvation exactly? What does fellowship matter if you're saved? What if you're a loner?

Paul says to "labor for" your salvation with Fear and Trembling. So that is the context one must regard what Paul says everything else with: There's a reason he says that unrepentant sinners won't enter the Kingdom.
 
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javajo

Well-Known Member
Why would him being killed in the flesh save his soul exactly? Does this mean if he didn't stop and carried on that he would not be saved? Does this mean anyone who commits any crime will be saved if he is killed? Explain your take on this extremely ambiguous verse.
Hi, this is my beliefs. Killing him wouldn't save him. He was already saved, but as Paul told the carnal believers of Corinth, a result of their sinning was that many were sick and some had died. So apparently he believed the man may have been close to being in the group that had died. Paul knew we have been freely justified of all our sin when we trusted Christ, so his soul was secure but his physical life was in jeopardy as well as his future reward and position in Heaven.

Also can you please quote the verse you refer to in 2 Corinthians where it specifically says he is restored and didn't lose out on attaining salvation, I must have forgotten it.
I believe this passage refers to him. Paul speaks of his first letter and how it made them feel so bad but that it produced a zeal in them to be clear of the matter (see 2 Cor 7 as well)

6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. 2 Cor. 2

And what's the dfifference between fellowship and Salvation exactly? What does fellowship matter if you're saved? What if you're a loner?
When we are freely saved we are adopted into God's family as his children. But just as a child can disobey and lose the good fellowship they had with their parents for a time, yet they are still their child, so we can lose fellowship for a time with our Heavenly Father, but we are always still his children forevermore, because of what Christ has done. Fellowship matters to me for many reasons like I want God to be pleased with my behavior, to give me wisdom, to bless me and to answer my prayers and to empower me to help others and do the works he has prepared for me to do. Its no fun to be out of fellowship with the God of all creation who loved us so much and bought us with such a price.

Paul says to "labor for" your salvation with Fear and Trembling. So that is the context one must regard what Paul says everything else with: There's a reason he says that unrepentant sinners won't enter the Kingdom.
Actually he says to "work out" your salvation, that it is God who is working in you...He is speaking to saved people indwelt, gifted and sealed by the Holy Spirit of God and encouraging them to show their salvation by the good works they were saved to do. In that same verse he calls them his beloved who have always obeyed. The whole book is to saved believers.

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phil. 2

Just something to consider:

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus...through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins...that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works. From Romans 3&4.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Hi, this is my beliefs. Killing him wouldn't save him. He was already saved, but as Paul told the carnal believers of Corinth, a result of their sinning was that many were sick and some had died. So apparently he believed the man may have been close to being in the group that had died. Paul knew we have been freely justified of all our sin when we trusted Christ, so his soul was secure but his physical life was in jeopardy as well as his future reward and position in Heaven.
I don't see how that answers my question. What is the meaning of this very vague verse that leaving him to destruction of the flesh will secure his salvation?


I believe this passage refers to him. Paul speaks of his first letter and how it made them feel so bad but that it produced a zeal in them to be clear of the matter (see 2 Cor 7 as well)

6 Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many.
7 So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow.
8 Wherefore I beseech you that ye would confirm your love toward him.
9 For to this end also did I write, that I might know the proof of you, whether ye be obedient in all things. 2 Cor. 2
Do you have any links that agree that this verse is referring to that man or is that all your view? I don't see how the context here in any way means he's referring to the same man. Neither do I see how this verse proves that he was saved. You really have to read into something that's not there.


Actually he says to "work out" your salvation, that it is God who is working in you...He is speaking to saved people indwelt, gifted and sealed by the Holy Spirit of God and encouraging them to show their salvation by the good works they were saved to do. In that same verse he calls them his beloved who have always obeyed. The whole book is to saved believers.
The word is in fact "labor for", the English translation "work out" means similarly. This vastly affects your interpretation. Directly, it says "Toil for your salvation". Your interpretation that he's saying to make it manifest is a total twisting and is not at all what it says. And what kind of "good works" specifically are Christians "saved to do" that no other person would do? This huge hole in their logic is almost never addressed when they try putting the cart before the horse in saying they are "saved to do works". What kinds of works? Does this mean any Christian who doesn't do those works isn't truly saved?

12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Phil. 2
All that proves is that obedience brings one to salvation. What do yo uthink "God which works in you" means, do you think that means God is directing their actions? Or is it referring to something different? Why would you tell someone to work out salvation if God is working it for him in your interpretation?

Just something to consider:

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus...through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins...that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law. For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works. From Romans 3&4.
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Read it in Context to Romans 2:13 and 3:31 and you'll see that Paul is saying Law obedience is in fact necessary. Abraham's belief in God involved works. He actually heard God's voice and offered to sacrifice his son. This example is commonly used without showing how deep the context of Abraham's "faith" actually was.
 
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