Repenting for nothing...

gnostic said:

Hi poisonshady313. Haven't seen you around for quite some time.

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Got a new job a couple of months ago. Usually too tired or preoccupied when I'm not working. Figured I'd pop in and see what's what.

I understand the "room for improvement" point and the ask-for-pardon" thingy.

To me, pardon is done more out of etiquette/manner than true repenting...in most of the cases.

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True... but the principle behind the words themselves remain. It's a matter off manners/etiquette to seek forgiveness (repentence) for potential wrongdoing. So as we might display manners/etiquette/humility towards one another, we can also show manners/ettiquite/humility towards God, asking Him to pardon us (repentence) for things we may or may not have done wrong, just in case.

And improving yourself can be done without repenting. There are factors where you do something wrong, and you do repent for your actions; this of course, depends on the situation.

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This is also true. But part of repentance is acknowledging your faults (whether you know you did something wrong, or it's possible you might have done something wrong.) and committing to do better. Improving one's conduct and one's self by learning from their mistakes. It's not about saying "I don't deserve your mercy, but please do it anyway because you're infinitely merciful" (though I think there might be one or two prayers like that somewhere within Jewish liturgy).

poisonshady313 said:

True... but the principle behind the words themselves remain. It's a matter off manners/etiquette to seek forgiveness (repentence) for potential wrongdoing.

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That's exactly what I don't understand.

How do you ask for forgiveness for something ("potential wrongdoing") that you haven't done yet?

It is one thing to apologize to someone for something I did do, I'd find it impossible to feel remorseful for potential wrongdoing.

poisonshady313 said:

So as we might display manners/etiquette/humility towards one another, we can also show manners/ettiquite/humility towards God, asking Him to pardon us (repentence) for things we may or may not have done wrong, just in case.

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And that another thing. I can apologize to someone - a real live person. How do I repent to a being that I don't think it is real, like this god?

Harmonious said:

Building on this...

We are about to enter what Jews refer to as the Penitential season: a month in preparation, and then Rosh Hashana, and Yom Kippur, both days of Judgment.

One of the many features in our liturgy is an alphabetical laundry list of sins that have been done in our proclaimed confession.

But here is the thing about them. The confession is never given as an "I did this," but always as a "WE did this." Part of the point of this is not to embarrass the individual who has indeed sinned in this way, as more than one person has probably sinned in the same way. (Otherwise, there would be no need for it to be a part of the liturgy.) Part of the point of this is to ask God for forgiveness, using the merit of the entire Jewish people. And part of the point is that, while not every Jew sinned with any individual sin listed, SOMEONE did somewhere, and as we are looking for group merit, we also accept group guilt.

This is rather Jewish-centered, but that is the way our liturgy is structured.

It isn't the be-all and end-all for the Jewish concept of forgiveness, but it is the beginning of an explanation.

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I think this is an excellent point to bring up. While there are ideas that are common to both Judaism and Christianity, the communal aspect of Judaism has such an impact on them that they are often completely different.

As has been said, we are responsible for repentance on an individual level for what we do, and we must make do so to both God and to those we have wronged. So, at least on this level, only those who have sinned need to repent.

But, at least in Judaism, it doesn't end there. As Jews, we are a people both in name and in His Eyes, and are responsible for each other. We are charged with each others' welfare, with helping each other spiritually, and with rebuking each other when it is required. And, as a community, we come together on Yom Kippur and, in one voice, we repent for am Yisrael.

gnostic said:

That's exactly what I don't understand.

How do you ask for forgiveness for something ("potential wrongdoing") that you haven't done yet?

It is one thing to apologize to someone for something I did do, I'd find it impossible to feel remorseful for potential wrongdoing.

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It's not so much feeling remorseful for something you haven't done yet, as much as it is recognizing that we're not perfect, our knowldge-base lacking as well as performance not as well-honed as it could be. It is remorse for sins of omission or simple ignorance.

And that another thing. I can apologize to someone - a real live person. How do I repent to a being that I don't think it is real, like this god?

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I see why this would cause a problem. Belief would be useful in an exchange of communication.

Otherwise, it might seem like a great sound and fury signifying nothing.

gnostic said:

Since I'm more familiar or acquainted with Christian teachings than others, like from Judaism or Islam (though Muslims & Jews probably feel the way about this subject), or non-Abrahamic religions, I'll approach this topic from this (Christian) angle, but anyone can contribute and put non-Christian perspectives if they like.

One of the Christian teachings is the church urge people to REPENT.

Repenting seemed as essential as believing (in god & Jesus) or converting, or baptizing.

What happens if you're devout and done no wrong?

What happen then?

Do you still repent if there are nothing to repent about?

If yes, then what is the purpose of repenting for things you haven't done?
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Or is it just custom, like praying certain number of times or at specific times?
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It's my understanding that you would only repent or atone should you commit wrongdoing (or sin). So repenting or atoning for nothing would seem terribly illogical.

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I could be wrong, but for most of my Christian phase my understanding of repentance had to do with a change of mind, essentially to that of believing that Jesus died and rose again to save mankind from sin/death.

In looking further into it, however, I had noticed some verses about repentance that raise questions as to whose responsibility it might really be to make repentance take place. Evidently, it could be interpreted as being a gift of God just like faith and salvation are:

So, at least from the Christian bible standpoint, repentance seems like something God-granted rather than something generated by the individual, but this tends to be overlooked by mainstream Christianity.

It's similar to another evidently misunderstood term, being "born again". Christians present being born again as though birth were the responsibility of the one being born. They don't stop to consider why Jesus would've used the birth metaphor, and that if he were aiming to communicate the need for individual effort, telling them they have to be born in some way would not the best choice of words for that. Birth isn't something initiated by the birth-ee.

gnostic said:

Since I'm more familiar or acquainted with Christian teachings than others, like from Judaism or Islam (though Muslims & Jews probably feel the way about this subject), or non-Abrahamic religions, I'll approach this topic from this (Christian) angle, but anyone can contribute and put non-Christian perspectives if they like.

One of the Christian teachings is the church urge people to REPENT.

Repenting seemed as essential as believing (in god & Jesus) or converting, or baptizing.

What happens if you're devout and done no wrong?

What happen then?

Do you still repent if there are nothing to repent about?

If yes, then what is the purpose of repenting for things you haven't done?
​

Or is it just custom, like praying certain number of times or at specific times?
​

It's my understanding that you would only repent or atone should you commit wrongdoing (or sin). So repenting or atoning for nothing would seem terribly illogical.

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Repentance and atonement are two different things.

Sin constitutes more than "breaking rules."

Every wrong that we do , has two litigant :
1- God himself
2- people

That our wrongs which its litigant is god would be forgiven by god immediately ,if we become regretful actually
That wrongs which its litigant are people (a person or a group ) may not be forgiven by god ( although he becomes regretful ) unless that person or group forgive that guilty . Therefore that wronger must compensate his badness about that person or people if he is able

Iridescence said:

I could be wrong, but for most of my Christian phase my understanding of repentance had to do with a change of mind, essentially to that of believing that Jesus died and rose again to save mankind from sin/death.

In looking further into it, however, I had noticed some verses about repentance that raise questions as to whose responsibility it might really be to make repentance take place. Evidently, it could be interpreted as being a gift of God just like faith and salvation are:

Acts 5:31 God has exalted to his right hand this very man as our Leader and Savior in order to extend repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel.

Acts 11:18 When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, "Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life."

2 Timothy 2:24-26 The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition,if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
​

So, at least from the Christian bible standpoint, repentance seems like something God-granted rather than something generated by the individual, but this tends to be overlooked by mainstream Christianity.

It's similar to another evidently misunderstood term, being "born again". Christians present being born again as though birth were the responsibility of the one being born. They don't stop to consider why Jesus would've used the birth metaphor, and that if he were aiming to communicate the need for individual effort, telling them they have to be born in some way would not the best choice of words for that. Birth isn't something initiated by the birth-ee.

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That's pretty good! Yes, repent or in Greek, "mataneo", means simply, "to change one's mind." I believe that first, one must be convicted by the Holy Spirit and shown by the Law that they have, indeed, sinned. Like, I have lied, stolen, disobeyed my parents, taken God's name in vain, committed adultery and murder (at heart), coveted, etc. Just one lie makes me a liar, stealing a paperclip makes me a thief, etc. So, I know I am a liar, thief, adulterer and murder at heart, a blasphemer, etc. and just one sin requires payment and the wages/penalty of sin is death--physical, spiritual and final separation from God in Hell forever. So, my goose is cooked. But God...because of his great love for us gave his only Son to pay that penalty of death so I won't have to. So...those who repent...change their mind about sin and about their need for salvation and about how salvation is granted and turn and trust in Christ and his finished work on the cross to have paid for all their sins, are freely and forever saved to the uttermost. We change our mind about how we think we can save ourselves by "dead works" like being religious, partaking of sacraments and ceremonies and rituals and traditions and trying to do good and not sin and all, and trust alone in Christ alone by faith alone for salvation (all those things have their place, but not in salvation, for it is a free gift, not of works, lest anyone should boast, that Christ get all the glory and so anyone who wants to may be freely saved).

gnostic said:

I don't know.

Does an error or mistake always count as a "sin"?

What is "sin"?

I know that people would consider murder, adultery and stealing is considered a "sin"...

...but say you're high school student and miscalculate a simple arithmetic, like 8+7=5. This mistake is an error, but would that be considered a "sin"?

Do you need to repent for something so trivial? Would a god be so petty as to punish a student for forgetting to carry a 1 in his calculation?

Is there a fine line between what is considered a "sin" and what's not?

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The Biblical definition of Sin, according to 1 John 3:4, is "lawlessness", in the context of Mosaic Law. Those who break the commandments are those who sin.

The idea that it simply means "error" or "to miss the target" should be seen in the context more of "moral failure with consequence". Otherwise, I would like to see an example where Harmanos is used like an archer missing his target.

gnostic said:

That's exactly what I don't understand.

How do you ask for forgiveness for something ("potential wrongdoing") that you haven't done yet?

It is one thing to apologize to someone for something I did do, I'd find it impossible to feel remorseful for potential wrongdoing.

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not for what hasn't been done yet. For what might have been done already unknowingly. I'm sorry if my use of the word potential was confusing.

There's a perfect example. It might have been wrong. It might not have been wrong. It has the potential for being considered wrong. But I'm repenting just in case.

And that another thing. I can apologize to someone - a real live person. How do I repent to a being that I don't think it is real, like this god?

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This thread is called repenting for nothing... Not repenting to nobody.

If you believe God exists and holds you accountable for observing His law, I'm sure you can see the logic in repenting for missing the mark.

If not... Then it doesn't matter.

Find me someone with no sin and I shall give you an answer

Shermana said:

The Biblical definition of Sin, according to 1 John 3:4, is "lawlessness", in the context of Mosaic Law. Those who break the commandments are those who sin.

The idea that it simply means "error" or "to miss the target" should be seen in the context more of "moral failure with consequence". Otherwise, I would like to see an example where Harmanos is used like an archer missing his target.

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Observing the commandments isn't just about refraining from doing things you're not supposed to do. It's also about doing the things you're supposed to. If you forget to do something in its appointed time, or in the appropriate way, it might be said that you "missed the mark"... an appropriate metaphor to describe not quite getting something right. It's not the same as deliberately doing something you shouldn't, or not doing something you should.

But both are described as sin. Which is why it's important to acknowledge that not all sin is the same.