Is Hell just?

For you Super Universe. I apologize for my seemingly harsh comments on my other post below, so I decided to start a thread discussing the concept of Hell and if it is truly just.

So...is Hell just? Would a loving God allow His children to be cast into Hell? If so, what is the purpose?

Brandon

May be he is not all the loving if he is throwing is children into fire.

Arkangel said:

May be he is not all the loving if he is throwing is children into fire.

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I asked, though, is it just. Of course God is loving, but He must also be just. That is the question at hand. If God is loving, but not just, He is not God. If God is just but not loving, He is equally as ill-balanced. If Hell is just, then it is within God's nature. If it is not, we know that Hell is not a possibility.

Brandon

Hell is just in that all have free agency and will choose themselves to accept Christ and be saved or reject the gospel and suffer the consequences.

The LDS concept of hell may be unique among Christians. Most people will receive a "degree of glory." We can discuss this more if you wish, but to answer your question, the consequences are just because we choose ourselves.

nutshell said:

Hell is just in that all have free agency and will choose themselves to accept Christ and be saved or reject the gospel and suffer the consequences.

The LDS concept of hell may be unique among Christians. Most people will receive a "degree of glory." We can discuss this more if you wish, but to answer your question, the consequences are just because we choose ourselves.

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I agree totally with you on the concept of choosing Hell. We make our own decision.

The LDS position is quite intriguing to me. I had a friend who was Mormon. He kept trying to get me to convert. Great guy, but I cannot accept Mormonism personally. In any case, I would like to know more about your position on the eventual glorification of "most" of mankind.

Brandon

Maybe he just wants his children to be cozy. I know I have always loved a good sit by the fire. Perhaps souls just dont stay warm as easily...

Seriously though, I don't consider hell to be a just punishment, but it really isn't up to me to decide what is just outside of the world I live in right now. The way I see it even if hell is real it's not going to matter once you get there. Same goes for heaven.

Khale said:

Maybe he just wants his children to be cozy. I know I have always loved a good sit by the fire. Perhaps souls just dont stay warm as easily...

Seriously though, I don't consider hell to be a jsut punishment, but it really isn't up to me to decide what is just outside of the world I live in right now. The way I see it even if hell is real it's not going to matter once you get there. Same goes for heaven.

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What do you mean "its not going to matter once you get there?"

Brandon

I think it somewhat illusory to consider a so-called "god" to be "just".

"Just" would imply impartial fairness. I have my doubts that the folks who survived Kartrina or the Tsunami last Christmas would agree. Were all those people deserving of what happened to their lives? I can't say. Neither can anyone else.

I also have my doubts religious types would agree. It is my feeling that if one needs a Hell in order to appreciate a Heaven then it time to re-examine ones values.

Many have already condemned me to the Islamic Hellfire as well as the Christian Hell. I just hope there is enough of me to go around.

Of a Happy Ending said:

I agree totally with you on the concept of choosing Hell. We make our own decision.

The LDS position is quite intriguing to me. I had a friend who was Mormon. He kept trying to get me to convert. Great guy, but I cannot accept Mormonism personally. In any case, I would like to know more about your position on the eventual glorification of "most" of mankind.

Brandon

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Jesus spoke of preparing "many mansions" and Paul teaches of the different glories, comparing them to the sun, moon, and stars. While we believe "most" will fall into one of these three categories, I think we can all agree that each glory is vastly different than the other. The sun is so bright you can't even look at it without going blind. The moon pales in comparison. Also, a star seen from earth (and not the sun) is pale compared to the moon. So, while "most" will be glorified, it definitly won't be an equal distribution.

But this is just because we choose where we will go by choosing between right and wrong.

YmirGF said:

I think it somewhat illusory to consider a so-called "god" to be "just".

"Just" would imply impartial fairness. I have my doubts that the folks who survived Kartrina or the Tsunami last Christmas would agree. Were all those people deserving of what happened to their lives? I can't say. Neither can anyone else.

I also have my doubts religious types would agree. It is my feeling that if one needs a Hell in order to appreciate a Heaven then it time to re-examine ones values.

Many have already condemned me to the Islamic Hellfire as well as the Christian Hell. I just hope there is enough of me to go around.

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We live in a fallen world. "Impartial fairness" is not part of this world, but part of the judgement we receive. Compared to the eternal glory that awaits us, disasters such as Katrina and the Tsunami are insignificant in the big picture.

YmirGF said:

I think it somewhat illusory to consider a so-called "god" to be "just".

"Just" would imply impartial fairness. I have my doubts that the folks who survived Kartrina or the Tsunami last Christmas would agree. Were all those people deserving of what happened to their lives? I can't say. Neither can anyone else.

I also have my doubts religious types would agree. It is my feeling that if one needs a Hell in order to appreciate a Heaven then it time to re-examine ones values.

Many have already condemned me to the Islamic Hellfire as well as the Christian Hell. I just hope there is enough of me to go around.

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There are two problems with the above statement.

1. It assumes that God is directly responsible for all occurrences on Earth.

2. It assumes that human beings are innocent.

My answers:

1. God is not directly responsible for all things that occur on the earth. He created a system in His creation that maintains itself. As a part of that system, weather happens. God does not "create" hurricanes.

2. Men are by no means innocent. We are all guilty of sin and rejecting God, and, as a result, we are deserving of what comes. As a result of the Fall, man became subject to nature, and nature went awry.

Furthermore, Hell is not necessary to appreciate Heaven, that is a misconception. Hell was, in fact, never intended for men, but, because men have separated themselves from God through rejection of Him, that is their ultimate destination apart from the shed blood of Christ.

Brandon

Of a Happy Ending said:

What do you mean "its not going to matter once you get there?"

Brandon

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What I mean to say is this:

If heaven or hell exist, and if you find yourself in one or the other. Then I don't believe you're previous life will matter or be remembered. You are talking of places of extremes.

One, heaven, is a place of extreme bliss. The people that go there will be too enraptured by the mere presence of God to care about what they had done with there life. To them heaven was how it always was.

The other, hell, is a place of extreme suffering. The people that go there will be to busy with whatever awaits them there. In the end anything that happened on earth doesn't matter. Your everything will be hell.

Khale said:

What I mean to say is this:

If heaven or hell exist, and if you find yourself in one or the other. Then I don't believe you're previous life will matter or be remembered. You are talking of places of extremes.

One, heaven, is a place of extreme bliss. The people that go there will be too enraptured by the mere presence of God to care about what they had done with there life. To them heaven was how it always was.

The other, hell, is a place of extreme suffering. The people that go there will be to busy with whatever awaits them there. In the end anything that happened on earth doesn't matter. Your everything will be hell.

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That's an interesting perspective, but I don't think it holds water biblically. We are told that men will be judged "according to what they did." I might agree with C.S. Lewis here in his conception of Hell. In the book The Great Divorce Lewis describes Hell as a place where people are locked into the selfishness that they exhibited during life. In Hell, it is as though a person has caved in on himself, totally absorbed in himself. He makes an excellent illustration with a woman who wants to find her son, but only for her own benefit. She would feign caring for another so that her desires would be met.

In Heaven, accordingly, men will be rewarded for their works on earth.

The life lived now will certainly matter in both eternal destinations.

Brandon

nutshell said:

Compared to the eternal glory that awaits us, disasters such as Katrina and the Tsunami are insignificant in the big picture.

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Eternal glory, eh. The end justifies the means. The only thing fallen about our world is the level of intellect of people espousing these beliefs.

Keep your glory. I have no need of it.

Of a Happy Ending said:

That's an interesting perspective, but I don't think it holds water biblically. We are told that men will be judged "according to what they did." I might agree with C.S. Lewis here in his conception of Hell. In the book The Great Divorce Lewis describes Hell as a place where people are locked into the selfishness that they exhibited during life. In Hell, it is as though a person has caved in on himself, totally absorbed in himself. He makes an excellent illustration with a woman who wants to find her son, but only for her own benefit. She would feign caring for another so that her desires would be met.

In Heaven, accordingly, men will be rewarded for their works on earth.

The life lived now will certainly matter in both eternal destinations.

Brandon

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The problem I find with being judged for our works on earth is that I believe them to be predetermined. If is an all powerful being as has been described then from the moment of creation he knew what I would do, where I would end up, and what would lead me there. Every action that we make, from what we ate this morning to what who we will marry, is based on our reactions to various stimuli. These can be traced back to the beginning of time as we know it.

YmirGF said:

Eternal glory, eh. The end justifies the means. The only thing fallen about our world is the level of intellect of people espousing these beliefs.

Keep your glory. I have no need of it.

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Then why on earth do you post in the Biblical Debate forum?

Please, don't respond if this nonsense is going to characterize your posts. There is an appropriate place for a real discussion of those issues. This is not it.

Brandon

i would say it is not very just of human beings to make up lies about God . i wonder what he thinks about people who make up lies about him:tsk: especially religious leaders who lead the flocks in to falsehood

"The Rock, perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice."—DEUTERONOMY 32:4.

"Far be it from the true God to act wickedly, and the Almighty to act unjustly!" ..Job 34;10 hellfire is a false made up lie

Khale said:

The problem I find with being judged for our works on earth is that I believe them to be predetermined. If is an all powerful being as has been described then from the moment of creation he knew what I would do, where I would end up, and what would lead me there. Every action that we make, from what we ate this morning to what who we will marry, is based on our reactions to various stimuli. These can be traced back to the beginning of time as we know it.

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Careful, you're sounding awfully Calvinistic here. Of course, you may be right, and you may be wrong. I suppose it might be possible to track my responses to stimuli, but there will always be surprises.

Regarding God's omniscience, I believe there are two possibilities.

One, we are now living at the edge of time and omniscience applies to reality. In that view, God knows all things that are now real and all possibilities for the future. Being that God is limitless, it is possible that He knows not only all things now occurring, but all things that are possible to occur. From that point, every decision made limits the future possibilities. Based on that, it would be possible to predict the future and even to force events to happen based on foreknowledge of all possible events.

The second possibility is that, yes, everything is predetermined based upon God's omniscience.

In either case, the book of Revelation is clear. In chapter 20, books will be open that reveal all the deeds of a man in his life. The chapter then reads that all men will be judged accordingly. The ultimate registry book, however, is the book of life. Regardless of what is in the other books, eternal residence will depend on one's name being recorded in this book.

Brandon

may said:

i would say it is not very just of human beings to make up lies about God . i wonder what he thinks about people who make up lies about him:tsk: especially religious leaders who lead the flocks in to falsehood

"The Rock, perfect is his activity, for all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice."—DEUTERONOMY 32:4.

"Far be it from the true God to act wickedly, and the Almighty to act unjustly!" ..Job 34;10 hellfire is a false made up lie

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If Hellfire is a "false, made up lie," then prove it biblically; and I don't mean pulling out all the verses that include God and love, please spare your concordance theology. Prove that "hell" does not exist or that it is a doctrine made by men.

Brandon

Khale said:

The problem I find with being judged for our works on earth is that I believe them to be predetermined. If is an all powerful being as has been described then from the moment of creation he knew what I would do, where I would end up, and what would lead me there. Every action that we make, from what we ate this morning to what who we will marry, is based on our reactions to various stimuli. These can be traced back to the beginning of time as we know it.

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You might be dead on here. What if it is all predetermind.

"The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast." Rev 17:8