God's Omniscience versus Free Will

Skwim said:

Sorry, my goof. Let me rephrase.

"If he can see the doors I have to choose from why can't he see which one I WILL go through? Someone draw the curtain?" g​

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Perhaps because you haven't chosen yet.

Consider Laplace's demon. A demon that is aware of all causes in an individual life and so can predict that future because of an unbroken causal chain of events.
Laplace's demon - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The demon can precisely predict your future however you still freely make the choices. The demon just happens to have enough knowledge to predict those choices.

So an omniscient entity would know your future because they could predict your choices. Now going forward your future is set and will be the result of the choices you freely make. However lets say humans have been given a unique ability to break that causal chain leading to a destiny determine by your freely made choices.

You can choose to accept God's will over your own. That choices alters what would have otherwise been your destiny. God has not predetermined this decision for you. It is a first cause act. Instead of relying on your own values and desires to make your decisions which would have otherwise led you to a certain destiny you've made the choice to accept God's will over your own and allow God's will to determine your destiny instead of your own.

So really then you'd have two potential destinies. One according to your own will and one according to God's will. You can continue to act according to your own will and live with the results or submit to God's will accept your destiny according to God's plan.

Muslims seem to understand this concept of submitting to God's will. Christians forfeit their life to Christ. "Thy will be done".

Since the decision to submit to God's will is totally up to you, your future is not yet determined. However there are only two potential futures. One of your own making and one of God's making. You are free to choose between the two.

camanintx said:

If God controls it then it's not free will, is it?

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God gave us the free will,that ability which we have is owned by god and he can control it if he wish,whats wrong with it.

FearGod said:

God gave us the free will,that ability which we have is owned by god and he can control it if he wish,whats wrong with it.

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If God controls my choices then how can it blame me for making bad decisions? Sort of negates the whole fall/redemption concept at the heart of Christianity.

camanintx said:

If God controls my choices then how can it blame me for making bad decisions? Sort of negates the whole fall/redemption concept at the heart of Christianity.

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No i don't believe that god control our free will or that he know what we will be such as saying that he know from the date we born what we will be,that make no sense.

i think christians and other Abrahamic religions misunderstand the meaning of omniscience.

FearGod said:

No i don't believe that god control our free will or that he know what we will be such as saying that he know from the date we born what we will be,that make no sense.

i think christians and other Abrahamic religions misunderstand the meaning of omniscience.

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It makes perfect sense. If you are Laplace's demon, you can see exactly what people will do however far into the future you like.

Shuddhasattva said:

I don't see how passive knowledge of the array of choices possible dictates the choice itself. Why do you care if someone, let alone god, knows what you're going to do?

Let's put it this way. Strategy, such as game theory, is built around anticipating the other players' actions and plans. Say you correctly anticipate an opponent in a complex situation.

Did they have no free will?

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They had free will. But you never were 100% sure what they'd do. God is 100% sure what I'd do, therefore I am incapable of doing something different without God being wrong.

FearGod said:

No i don't believe that god control our free will or that he know what we will be such as saying that he know from the date we born what we will be,that make no sense.

i think christians and other Abrahamic religions misunderstand the meaning of omniscience.

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So God has no way of tell you whether I'll pick 3 or 7 until I do?

camanintx said:

So God has no way of tell you whether I'll pick 3 or 7 until I do?

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exactly,thats my view.

camanintx said:

So God has no way of tell you whether I'll pick 3 or 7 until I do?

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FearGod said:

exactly,thats my view.

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so what does omniscience mean again?

Willamena said:

The problem I see with this is that our action of choice is exempted from "the realm of what is possible."

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It's like programming a computer. You can program a computer to pick between various options and to pick them randomly. You know beforehand what the options are and what the effects of each option will be, but the computer chooses the option. The choice itself being uninfluenced by you. Even if you did decide the logic they will use to make the decision, the decision is still theirs.

PolyHedral said:

Either way, God knows what you will do, with certainty, before you decide to do it.

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He always knows what is happening in the current moment and all moments are current to Him. He doesn't know what you will do before you do it because there is no before you do it in His perspective.

waitasec said:

so what does omniscience mean again?

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Good question.

From Apologetics PressFrom Founder MinistriesFrom The parent CompanyFrom Christian Research InstituteFrom Preach the Word.comit appears the general consensus is that omniscience includes knowing the future.

waitasec said:

so what does omniscience mean again?

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Knowing everything which is going on right now.

Skwim said:

Good question.

From Apologetics Press

The Omniscience of God
by Caleb Colley, M.L.A.

God is the only One Who possesses limitless knowledge.

God knows every past action.

God knows every present action.

God knows every future action. The fact that God gave prophets the capability to predict accurately very specific events in the distant future is one of the great evidences for the inspiration of the Bible (Thompson, 1999, p. 19). God has emphasized repeatedly that He knows the future, perhaps never more emphatically than when Jesus Himself prophesied (see Matthew 24:1-51; Mark 8:31; John 2:19-22). The fact that God knows the future does not imply that humans somehow lose freedom of choice. Just because God knows that something will happen, does not mean that He causes it (see Bales, 1974, p. 49). God cannot be taught anything about the future (Acts 17:31; John 14:3).
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From Founder Ministries

The word omniscience is not, strictly speaking, a biblical term. The word itself is not found in the Bible. It is a philosophical/theological word that has come into wide usage because, like the word trinity, it correctly describes the biblical evidence. The word means to see or know all things. For God, if this doctrine is true, everything is eternally "present." I have recently been going through a box of old newspaper clippings from earlier years. To my astonishment, I had forgotten, not only many things that happened to me, but many of the people involved. Time dims our remembrance of much that has happened. God is not like that. He always knows what is past, present, and future, if he is omniscient.
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From The parent Company

God is Omniscient

Definition:

The attribute of God by which God perfectly and eternally knows all things which can be known, past, present, and future. God knows how best to attain His desired ends.
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From Christian Research Institute

OMNISCIENCE OF GOD- Introduction
Does God know everything? It’s not too surprising to hear non-Christians and even cultists deny that God is omniscient. But what is surprising is that a growing number of theologians today who profess to be evangelicals also deny it. Of course the real question is: What does the Bible say?OMNISCIENCE OF GOD- God Knows EverythingThe Bible repeatedly tells us that God knows everything. His knowledge, in fact, is “perfect [Job 37:16] and is “beyond measure” [Psa. 147:5]. He sees every move we make, He knows the innermost thoughts of our hearts and He even knows what we are going to say before we say it [1 Sam. 16:7; 1 Chron. 28:9; Psa. 139:1-6; Jer. 17:10; Heb. 4:12-13]. Unlike the false gods of our time, the Lord knows everything: Even what’s going to happen in the future [Isa. 41:21-24; 42:9; 44:7].
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From Preach the Word.com

This subject that we come upon this morning: 'The Omniscience of God', it testifies too greatly to us how little we can understand - because it is in contrast to our little understanding of Him, how greatly He understands all things. John Wesley said this: 'Bring me a worm that can comprehend a man, and then I will show you a man that can comprehend God'. Omniscience is a word that is made up of two Latin words. The first again, as we have learnt, 'omni' means 'all' - 'science' means knowledge. To put it plainly, the omniscience of God is God's all-knowledge, the attribute whereby He knows all things - He knows everything! That means that He knows all actualities and all possibilities - not only things that are, but things that can be - all actualities, and all possibilities, past, present and future.
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it appears the general consensus is that omniscience includes knowing the future.

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knowing some events to happen in the future have nothing to do with our freewill,but such events is already planned by god to happen during the time and god is using such programmed events for the test,like on end times some will follow the anti messiah and the others will follow Jesus christ.

So the known event which is planned already by god is the emersion of the anti messiah and the appearance of jesus .but who will follow jesus and who will follow the anti messiah,that isn't known to god because we have our freewill to choose the path according to our faith and not according to god's programming otherwise we will be just robots.

FearGod said:

knowing some events to happen in the future have nothing to do with our freewill,

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Knowing that you do X in the future is there any way you will be free not to do it?

but such events is already planned by god to happen during the time and god is using such programmed events for the test,like on end times some will follow the anti messiah and the others will follow Jesus christ.

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Should we assume this bit operational knowledge comes through private communication with god?

FearGod said:

Knowing everything which is going on right now.

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Given this, how can he not be able to accurately predict future events?

Tiberius said:

Given this, how can he not be able to accurately predict future events?

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Some events are already planned and programmed by him to happen at one point of time,for example when god informed us that Jesus will be back on end of times,that isn't because he know the future,but because he is planning to do such event at one point of time and similar events which have been predicted and happened to be true which was already programmed by god to let us know that his messengers are telling us the truth,but humans have their own freewill,they're responsible for their own choices.

Our bodies are similar to a programmed machines,but our spirits which driving our bodies have the freewill in the way they drive their bodies.

FearGod said:

Some events are already planned and programmed by him to happen at one point of time,for example when god informed us that Jesus will be back on end of times,that isn't because he know the future,but because he is planning to do such event at one point of time and similar events which have been predicted and happened to be true which was already programmed by god to let us know that his messengers are telling us the truth,but humans have their own freewill,they're responsible for their own choices.

Our bodies are similar to a programmed machines,but our spirits which driving our bodies have the freewill in the way they drive their bodies.

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So what happens if God plans for me to marry Sally? Is it possible for Sally to choose to kill herself?

Tiberius said:

So what happens if God plans for me to marry Sally? Is it possible for Sally to choose to kill herself?

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God doesn't plan whom you marry,that is your choice and hers.

FearGod said:

Knowing everything which is going on right now.

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with no foresight whatsoever...?
interesting.
god apparently doesn't know more than we do...makes sense.

waitasec said:

with no foresight whatsoever...?
interesting.
god apparently doesn't know more than we do...makes sense.

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That would be consistent with a man made religion..go figure