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Homosexuality vs. The Bible
- Thread starter Rex
- Start date
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
No one biting?
Well, I'll post the verses most commonly used against homosexuals...
The Story of Sodom - Genesis 19:1-25
You shall not lie with man as one lies with a women; this is an abomination. -Leviticus 18:22
If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they should surely be put to death. - Leviticus 20:13
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural (physin) relations for unnatural (para physin) ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural (physin) relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. - Romans 1:26
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. - 1Corinthians 6:9 KJV
For Whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; - 1 Timothy 1:1 KJV
As for what I think about it... I think you all know that lol. We've discused these verses and others at length in the past. I'll just state a couple things here, and let everyone else fight this one out. Out of the 31,173 verses contained in the Bible, there are less than a dozen that allegedly deal with the topic of homosexuality. The meaning of these verses remains fairly obscure to many Biblical scholars, especially in the context of loving committed relationships. Jesus himself said nothing, which leads many people to believe that the subject of homosexuality was not a concern. Interestingly enough, the word homosexual did not appear in any translation of the Bible until 1946. Likewise, there are words in the Greek language for same-sex sexual activities, yet they never appear in the original text of the New Testament.
Well, I'll post the verses most commonly used against homosexuals...
The Story of Sodom - Genesis 19:1-25
You shall not lie with man as one lies with a women; this is an abomination. -Leviticus 18:22
If a man also lie with mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they should surely be put to death. - Leviticus 20:13
Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural (physin) relations for unnatural (para physin) ones. In the same way the men also abandoned natural (physin) relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. - Romans 1:26
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators nor idolators, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. - 1Corinthians 6:9 KJV
For Whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine; - 1 Timothy 1:1 KJV
As for what I think about it... I think you all know that lol. We've discused these verses and others at length in the past. I'll just state a couple things here, and let everyone else fight this one out. Out of the 31,173 verses contained in the Bible, there are less than a dozen that allegedly deal with the topic of homosexuality. The meaning of these verses remains fairly obscure to many Biblical scholars, especially in the context of loving committed relationships. Jesus himself said nothing, which leads many people to believe that the subject of homosexuality was not a concern. Interestingly enough, the word homosexual did not appear in any translation of the Bible until 1946. Likewise, there are words in the Greek language for same-sex sexual activities, yet they never appear in the original text of the New Testament.
Feathers in Hair
World's Tallest Hobbit
I wish I could claim that I was a Biblical scholar, but I don't happen to be gifted in that area. From everything I've gleaned from the various interpretations of the Bible, though, it seems like, depending on the translation, what it's being translated from and who happens to be doing the interpreting, the Bible could be used to condone or condemn most anything. I imagine the words of Jesus are the most important thing in the Bible, however, and he acted with compassion and love, gathering those who would be outcasts, otherwise, to his side.
I feel that it's rather important to look upon his actions and words.
I feel that it's rather important to look upon his actions and words.
It is very important to look upon His actions and words and I totally agree with that but not to the exclusion of throwing out God's commands. Jesus never taught that! Just because Jesus didn't say the word "homosexual" doesn't mean that He accepted the behavior because it was in the context of a committed relationship. Jesus was a good Jew and believed in keeping to the "law" but not to the exclusion of the good. Beacuse the sin is bad you don't hurt or discriminate against the person. You try to alleviate the sin not the sinner! We are all sinners. If that were the case, we would have no hope!
Jesus was obedient to His Father's wishes and His Father's commands. God's laid down our path and if you chose to ignore it then I suppose that's your perogative. But the commands are the commands and I think I would rather follow what God says is right than to listen to human beings rationalize that behavior as good. Jesus did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it and to give us the "heart" of the law. God has stated many times that homosexual behavior is not the way to get to Him but will lead away from Him and I just don't see how you can rationalize that!
Jesus was obedient to His Father's wishes and His Father's commands. God's laid down our path and if you chose to ignore it then I suppose that's your perogative. But the commands are the commands and I think I would rather follow what God says is right than to listen to human beings rationalize that behavior as good. Jesus did not come to destroy the law but to fulfill it and to give us the "heart" of the law. God has stated many times that homosexual behavior is not the way to get to Him but will lead away from Him and I just don't see how you can rationalize that!
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Many times? Let's assume for the moment that the Bible's is God's own words, that the translation of the translation of the translation we now read is correct, and that personal or social opinion was not interjected along the way. There are 31,173 verses in the Bible, if homosexuality was so abhorrent, why was it spoken of (assuming of course we have the translations correct), 6 times and why did Jesus never speak of it? I hardly call that many times. In fact, the Bible contains only 6 admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. What does that say about heterosexuality?DianJo said:
And please don't refer to homosexuality as a behavior, is heterosexuality a behavior? A behavior is learned and can be changed, sexuality of any kind does not fall into either of these descriptions.
Feathers in Hair
World's Tallest Hobbit
DianJo said:
I wouldn't want to risk telling a person that they were a sinner by saying that 'God has stated' that they are, especially when these statements can be refuted or argued about. As has been said when we've argued about Christian theology before, "For all have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God." Who is anyone to say that one sin is worse than another?! Well, naturally, Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit (again, if one is going with the Christian theology) are able to say that. Jesus hasn't been quoted on the subject and God's comments can be argued either way. I know that about half of my homosexual friends have been driven away from the Christian church because of people telling them that they are in some way inferior on a base level.
Also, how could 'homosexual behavior' be any more or less moral than heterosexual behavior?
Scott1
Well-Known Member
I know I said I would stay away from this topic........... I just want to point out one thing after reading this quote from FeathersInHair:
Being a homosexual in no way makes a person inferior.
Being a homosexual is NOT a sin.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
"They (homosexuals) must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter..."
Peace,
Scott
seraphimfire
Member
Whew, this is one of the most controversial subjects today!
All I can say is that we have all "sinned" and fallen short of the glory of God!
now sin is a falling short of the "Ideal" that would be God our creator or Jesus/Yeshua the Christ! We as the people of God are told to "go and sin no more" as to the world we are to expound the truth and Love all men and women no matter what their lifstyles are! My opinion is that all behavior is learned, some is just chosen by the will of the person! We can choose to be whatever we want to be but is it righteous??? I can choose to smoke tobacco or shot up heroin or have sex with animals but this is not really "natural" human behavior. Lets look at animals, they never have sexual penetration other then natural male female sex! Yes they may show dominance female over female and male over male but never anything else documented! I watched two hamsters in a cage once and both males were forced into a perverse situation without females around they became twisted and one was more dominate humping the other.
no penitration took place! I introduced a female and the dominante one immediatly mated with her and of course more hampsters appeared! The other male hamster died.Make you own conclusions!
All I can say is that we have all "sinned" and fallen short of the glory of God!
now sin is a falling short of the "Ideal" that would be God our creator or Jesus/Yeshua the Christ! We as the people of God are told to "go and sin no more" as to the world we are to expound the truth and Love all men and women no matter what their lifstyles are! My opinion is that all behavior is learned, some is just chosen by the will of the person! We can choose to be whatever we want to be but is it righteous??? I can choose to smoke tobacco or shot up heroin or have sex with animals but this is not really "natural" human behavior. Lets look at animals, they never have sexual penetration other then natural male female sex! Yes they may show dominance female over female and male over male but never anything else documented! I watched two hamsters in a cage once and both males were forced into a perverse situation without females around they became twisted and one was more dominate humping the other.
no penitration took place! I introduced a female and the dominante one immediatly mated with her and of course more hampsters appeared! The other male hamster died.Make you own conclusions!
Feathers in Hair
World's Tallest Hobbit
seraphimfire said:
That I'm worried about for your hamsters? And you seem to really need cable, or some form of better entertainment?
Homosexuality has been documented in a number of creatures in the wild, including penguins choosing same-sex partners as 'life-mates' when there were plenty of other gendered penguins around for the pickings.
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
Are you sure about that? Even if it was true, sexuality is not about penetration, sorry to disappoint you.
The reason that Jesus and the Apostles felt no need to chastise homosexual activity, was that the issue had been settled since Sodom. They also never bothered speaking against pedifelia because it to is easily recognised as immoral by any servant of God. Perhaps the inability to recognise commonly accepted moral guidelines stem from the individuals desire to disobey God. Jesus never forgave anyone without demanding moral change in their life. Example "And I forgive your now go and sin no more." No one is a servant or friend of God who desires to remain in a sinful state.
Feathers in Hair
World's Tallest Hobbit
Raphael said:
Again, Sodom didn't 'settle' anything. And pedophilia is recognized by anyone with a brain as being immoral, not only a 'servant of God'. And as for all of your other arguments, they only make sense to you because you choose to interpret scripture in a certain way. (And, by using that logic, a person could prove or argue against most anything by using whatever translation of the Bible best suited their needs.)
Ardhanariswar
I'm back!
ya. people need to realize that pedophila, adultry, as well as commited relationships occur on both homosexul and heterosexual.
good site: http://www.geocities.com/rainbowchristian1225/LEVITICUS.html
i dont think those are moral limitaions. by abominations, i think they are just laws of the common jew. i mean, theres a law in leviticus allowing slavery. do you think slavery is moral and homosexuality not?
and i quote: Leviticus 25:44
i dont think these came from God....
good site: http://www.geocities.com/rainbowchristian1225/LEVITICUS.html
i dont think those are moral limitaions. by abominations, i think they are just laws of the common jew. i mean, theres a law in leviticus allowing slavery. do you think slavery is moral and homosexuality not?
and i quote: Leviticus 25:44
i dont think these came from God....
Ardhanariswar
I'm back!
and a law doesnt necessarily mean moral. Moral and eithics doesnt necessarily mean Law. big differnece.
Raphael said:
After having studied the Sodom story in depth for more than a month, I realise that your, traditional, view of Sodom is entirely wrong.
In the first place, there is no mentioning in the Bible that the sins of Sodom were anything else than general haughtiness, pride, idleness, unfriendliness towards strangers and the like. The closest you get is in Jude 7: "going after strange flesh", but that may well be referring to, for example, the Sodomites' eating of crayfish, which, as we all know, is an abomination. ‎
Gen. 19:5 is often used by traditionalists. What they don't (want to?) know is, that "know" (Hebr. yâda`) in the sexual sense is a rather rare meaning, and is used in the Bible only by the narrator, never by the actors. The reason for the mob's asking to know the visitors is probably that, recently having been at war, the Sodom people (not just the "men", which is a too common mistranslation of the Hebrew 'anshe - please note that also the kids were there, equally interested) wanted to know what kind of foreigners the foreigner Lot had admitted in the city. Was there a slip in the border control? Were the "men" spies or terrorists?
seraphimfire
Member
First to Feathers;
The hamster thing was over 30 years ago, my sisters owned the hamsters and big brother was just being curious! I would like to know a real instence of same sex bonding and sexual intercourse between animals. send me a link or something. I think that animals have been perverted by the destruction of habitat and men and women rape animals all the time!
To Maize; Are you so naive to think that homosexual men and women just sit around and hold hands! Give me a break!
Men living together and women living together does not indicate homosexuality. The realtionships that degenerate into a sexual affair is what I see as homosexual! A spade a spade! Again I recap that we as commited Christ followers are commanded to LOVE all people and pray for the healing of all people and nations no matter what. To accept the sins around us is compromise and I will not compromise the laws written on my heart(mind and spirit)! The violence that is commited toward any human being is repulsive to a true Christ follower.
To the subject of Sodom and Gomorah, the violence that was in those cities was the reason for their destruction! I wonder why America and other countries are not totally destroyed for the violence happening today!?
The sexual sins of those cities was also great but look around, how much time do you think we have!?
Peace
The hamster thing was over 30 years ago, my sisters owned the hamsters and big brother was just being curious! I would like to know a real instence of same sex bonding and sexual intercourse between animals. send me a link or something. I think that animals have been perverted by the destruction of habitat and men and women rape animals all the time!
To Maize; Are you so naive to think that homosexual men and women just sit around and hold hands! Give me a break!
Men living together and women living together does not indicate homosexuality. The realtionships that degenerate into a sexual affair is what I see as homosexual! A spade a spade! Again I recap that we as commited Christ followers are commanded to LOVE all people and pray for the healing of all people and nations no matter what. To accept the sins around us is compromise and I will not compromise the laws written on my heart(mind and spirit)! The violence that is commited toward any human being is repulsive to a true Christ follower.
To the subject of Sodom and Gomorah, the violence that was in those cities was the reason for their destruction! I wonder why America and other countries are not totally destroyed for the violence happening today!?
The sexual sins of those cities was also great but look around, how much time do you think we have!?
Peace
Green Gaia
Veteran Member
seraphimfire: Please quote where I said homosexual men and women just sit around and hold hands. I certainly said nor implied anything of the sort. I do not define sexuality as what two people may or may not do in the privacy of their own home. For me, it is more what is in there hearts. And it is certainly none of my buisness, nor is it yours.
http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~ewelby/nature/animal.html
http://www.cnn.com/NATURE/9909/18/gay.vulture.parents/
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/02/07/MNG3N4RAV41.DTL
You can search for more yourself if you like.
There's also this book you can check out for further reading.
Gladly. Here's a few:
http://www.bidstrup.com/sodomy.htm
http://www-unix.oit.umass.edu/~ewelby/nature/animal.html
http://www.cnn.com/NATURE/9909/18/gay.vulture.parents/
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2004/02/07/MNG3N4RAV41.DTL
You can search for more yourself if you like.
There's also this book you can check out for further reading.
All the time? Do you have some proof of this? Certainly it happens, but I highly doubt it's "all the time".
Feathers in Hair
World's Tallest Hobbit
seraphimfire said:
Thanks for Maize for covering this one!
seraphimfire said:
What, in the name of all that is good, does that have anything to do with homosexuality?! Any creature that would rape another creature, whether it be a human being with another human being or an emu with a potted fern is evil in the eyes of all who care to see.
seraphimfire said:
So... violence is now why Sodom and Gomorah were destroyed? And sexuality, hetero, homo, or bi, is not about violence. Again, for those that get them confused, there's some serious mental health issues that need to be addressed.
seraphimfire said:
This sounds so similiar. Something is being implied- wait, I get it! To quote CNN. com...
Please do not try pointing that same finger at anyone.
civilcynic
Member
I am not a biblical scholar nor do I believe in taking the Bible literally word for word. I also do not believe the Bible is infallible because it was written and translated by fallible humans. Based of these personal beliefs, a few thoughts on homosexuality and the Bible:
OLD TESTAMENT - There are a lot of do's and don't in this portion of the Bible - DON'T eat the meat of certain animals such as pigs, don't sleep with a woman during her menstrual cycle, trim your beard or clip hair at the temples,wear garments of different thread etc; On the "OK or DO list: stone those disrespectful to their parents, buy & own slaves, can even sell daughter as a slave, put to death adulterers/blasphemers, allow people with defects to partake of the Lord's food but do not allow them to offer the food or approach the alter, take an eye for an eye or limb for a limb, etc;
**Hmmmm...How come these aren't all endorsed and followed?
The Story of Sodom:
- First off, it is truly hard for me to believe that the entire male population of Sodom gathered in front to Lot's home demanding to have sexual relations with the 2 angels.
-The story does not specifically say that the townsmen wanted to have sexual relations with the 2 angels. This is an interpretation of the verse about the men wanting "to know' the angels. How is it that this is termed so vaguely and yet in other Bible verses the terms "sexual intercourse or sexual relations" are specifically mentioned.
-The interpretation of this story that defines homosexuality as evil seems to gloss over another equally pertinent portion of the story. In order to protect the 2 angels and assuage the rowdy, sex-driven male masses of Sodom, Lot offers his two young, virginal daughters to the townsmen to do with the girls what they want. What is wrong with this picture? Does that mean that pimping your daughters is ok or is it only ok if you are trying to stop others from committing a homosexual act? Sorry, can't buy that.
NEW TESTAMENT:
-To my knowledge, Homosexuality is not addressed in the portions of the New Testament that deal directly with Jesus' life, actions or words. Funny that it would be a big enough deal to destroy entire cities such as Sodom but not important enough for Jesus to address.
-References dealing with homosexuality as a sin comes from the epistles of only one apostle : Paul. Paul provided considerable guidance on a number of issues:
* On slaves -obey your human masters with the reverence, awe and the sincerity you owe to Christ.
*On wives -as the Church submits to Christ so wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
* Women - any woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered brings shame upon her head....if a woman will not wear a veil, she ought to cut off her hair.....(does this sound a little Taliban like?)
*Women - I do not permit a woman to act as a teacher or in any way have authority over a man (there goes school teachers, judges,policewomen, etc).
*Women A woman must listen in silence and be completely submissive. If they want to learn anything they should ask their husband. It is a disgrace when a woman speaks in the assembly.
*To men - a man ought not to his head...Does nature not teach it is dishonorable for a man to wear his hair long?
*To the unmarried -To those not married or widows, it would do well to remain as they are...A man is better off not having relations with a woman.
Hmmmm......again why aren't we so eager to adhere to any of these 'pearls of wisom' from Paul but yet people actively promote 'the homosexual is a sin' verse?
It seems to me that there is selective use of Biblical phrases that suits people's point of view and all other phrases are ignored. It also makes me wonder whether the interpretation of verses that imply homosexualtiy is a sin is more a function of what people want to believe and/or support rather than a truly accurate or alternative interpretation.
OLD TESTAMENT - There are a lot of do's and don't in this portion of the Bible - DON'T eat the meat of certain animals such as pigs, don't sleep with a woman during her menstrual cycle, trim your beard or clip hair at the temples,wear garments of different thread etc; On the "OK or DO list: stone those disrespectful to their parents, buy & own slaves, can even sell daughter as a slave, put to death adulterers/blasphemers, allow people with defects to partake of the Lord's food but do not allow them to offer the food or approach the alter, take an eye for an eye or limb for a limb, etc;
**Hmmmm...How come these aren't all endorsed and followed?
The Story of Sodom:
- First off, it is truly hard for me to believe that the entire male population of Sodom gathered in front to Lot's home demanding to have sexual relations with the 2 angels.
-The story does not specifically say that the townsmen wanted to have sexual relations with the 2 angels. This is an interpretation of the verse about the men wanting "to know' the angels. How is it that this is termed so vaguely and yet in other Bible verses the terms "sexual intercourse or sexual relations" are specifically mentioned.
-The interpretation of this story that defines homosexuality as evil seems to gloss over another equally pertinent portion of the story. In order to protect the 2 angels and assuage the rowdy, sex-driven male masses of Sodom, Lot offers his two young, virginal daughters to the townsmen to do with the girls what they want. What is wrong with this picture? Does that mean that pimping your daughters is ok or is it only ok if you are trying to stop others from committing a homosexual act? Sorry, can't buy that.
NEW TESTAMENT:
-To my knowledge, Homosexuality is not addressed in the portions of the New Testament that deal directly with Jesus' life, actions or words. Funny that it would be a big enough deal to destroy entire cities such as Sodom but not important enough for Jesus to address.
-References dealing with homosexuality as a sin comes from the epistles of only one apostle : Paul. Paul provided considerable guidance on a number of issues:
* On slaves -obey your human masters with the reverence, awe and the sincerity you owe to Christ.
*On wives -as the Church submits to Christ so wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
* Women - any woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered brings shame upon her head....if a woman will not wear a veil, she ought to cut off her hair.....(does this sound a little Taliban like?)
*Women - I do not permit a woman to act as a teacher or in any way have authority over a man (there goes school teachers, judges,policewomen, etc).
*Women A woman must listen in silence and be completely submissive. If they want to learn anything they should ask their husband. It is a disgrace when a woman speaks in the assembly.
*To men - a man ought not to his head...Does nature not teach it is dishonorable for a man to wear his hair long?
*To the unmarried -To those not married or widows, it would do well to remain as they are...A man is better off not having relations with a woman.
Hmmmm......again why aren't we so eager to adhere to any of these 'pearls of wisom' from Paul but yet people actively promote 'the homosexual is a sin' verse?
It seems to me that there is selective use of Biblical phrases that suits people's point of view and all other phrases are ignored. It also makes me wonder whether the interpretation of verses that imply homosexualtiy is a sin is more a function of what people want to believe and/or support rather than a truly accurate or alternative interpretation.
Ardhanariswar
I'm back!
in the story of sodom, it does not condemn homosexuality from what i gather, but rather, people barking on peoples houses to "know" angels. sure, having sex all around is immoral. but monogamous homosexuality, the bible says nothing against it.