How does one choose?

Muffled said:

I hear people say that they don't need God to be moral.

My question then is how is a person to choose?

I suppose that a position could be taken that everything is moral. Then murder and rape and beastiality and torture are all fine and dandy.

One could look at things logically. For instance Jezebel had a logical solution for Ahab's desire for a man's land. Simply kill the man and take his land.

Can a person rely on laws or traditions?

There once was a law that stores couldn't open on Sunday now there is no such law. Evidently laws change according to what people wish them to be. It used to be that holidays were celebrated on the traditional day but now holidays are often selebrated on a convenient mond. Evidently traditions change as well.

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Muffled,
At different times and in different cultures MORELS have changed, probably we can agree on that.
This is just one of the reasons that God gave a Personal Letter to every human on earth, THE BIBLE. Since The Almighty God created us and everything in heaven and earth, it is only logical that He would determine what is Moral for His accepted people.
The Bible tells us that man does not even know how to direct his step, Jere 10:23. Also, many people believe that their heart will show them the right way, but what does the one who knows the heart of all, say??? Jere 17:9, The heart is more treacherous than anything!! Not a good thing to follow, unless it has been trained by God's word, Heb 5:12-14. Paul tells us that many people have a Zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge, Rom 10:2,3.
The Bible even tells us that the very inclination of the heart of man is bad, from his youth on, Gen 8:21. So who is it logical that we turn to??? The Bible says that the should trust in God with all our hearts, and do not lean upon our own understanding, that we should take notice of Him and He will make our paths straight, Prov 3:5,6.
It is heartwarming to think about all the promises that God has made to those who look for Him in truth, Ps 145:18. Consider Prov 8:17, where God says that He loves those that love Him, and those looking for Him are the ones who find Him.
Consider the help God promises, Ps 32:8-11
Consider Isa 48:17-19. God does not make arbitrary laws, all His laws to us are for our own good, Deut 10:13. Since He is Omniscient, isn't it wise to listen to HIM, Job 37:16?

jtartar said:

Muffled,
At different times and in different cultures MORELS have changed, probably we can agree on that.
This is just one of the reasons that God gave a Personal Letter to every human on earth, THE BIBLE. Since The Almighty God created us and everything in heaven and earth, it is only logical that He would determine what is Moral for His accepted people.
The Bible tells us that man does not even know how to direct his step, Jere 10:23. Also, many people believe that their heart will show them the right way, but what does the one who knows the heart of all, say??? Jere 17:9, The heart is more treacherous than anything!! Not a good thing to follow, unless it has been trained by God's word, Heb 5:12-14. Paul tells us that many people have a Zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge, Rom 10:2,3.
The Bible even tells us that the very inclination of the heart of man is bad, from his youth on, Gen 8:21. So who is it logical that we turn to??? The Bible says that the should trust in God with all our hearts, and do not lean upon our own understanding, that we should take notice of Him and He will make our paths straight, Prov 3:5,6.
It is heartwarming to think about all the promises that God has made to those who look for Him in truth, Ps 145:18. Consider Prov 8:17, where God says that He loves those that love Him, and those looking for Him are the ones who find Him.
Consider the help God promises, Ps 32:8-11
Consider Isa 48:17-19. God does not make arbitrary laws, all His laws to us are for our own good, Deut 10:13. Since He is Omniscient, isn't it wise to listen to HIM, Job 37:16?

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All hearts do is pump blood. Why do you perpetuate an ancient error?

Who should bear in mind that an appeal to scripture is effective only to the followers of the religion that uses the scripture. To everyone else, it is an affront.

Straw Dog said:

I think the burden rests on the side claiming that there cannot be moral behavior without a belief in God, etc.

How do they explain my moral agency? Or can they claim that I am immoral?

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I would not argue for that. I am saying that there is no standard of good and evil without God giving one.

Your moral agent is either God or the devil but the devil is only interested in reversing God's standard ie God has a standard of Good and the devil has a standard of evil.

According to God no man is currently living in harmony with His standard.

Moral Immoral, right and wrong good and evil. They are all human constucts designed so that society at large can function together and are conditioned into the human psyche, through religious indoctrination.
That's not to say its the only method of doing so. A secular society can use other means to achieve it.

To what extent to you think that we are all in some fashion programmed from an early age to function in any society for the benefit of the 'elite' (for lack of a better word)?

For example in the modern era, Schools educate and mould children to go out into the world as adults to get a job so the gears of industry and Civilisations progress continues towards the desired goal. To the benefit of nations and world leaders rather than priests and popes.

I mean no offence if anyone has taken some

waitasec said:

not having knowledge of good would also preclude them from committing the good

a & e could not choose good as they had no knowledge of it either

then you agree...

you are also making an assumption that they knew how to do evil without realizing that it was evil...it goes both ways. you cannot have one without the other. contrast.

how, if they didn't have the knowledge...they were forbidden to have it, remember?

good and bad news has nothing to do with knowing the nature of good and evil...
your example was not about good but preferable news or un-welcomed news
besides, it's irrelevant....your POV is POST fall...we are talking about the state of their being PRE fall...

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However they do have a knowledge of Good. God tells them what is good.

No. The body is not naturally slothful and God made clear that tending the garden is good.

No, I do not agree that they could do evil without knowing to do evil.

This is a post-fall view.

All I am saying is that they do good without knowing that it is good. When the fall comes they know what they were doing is good. It is like a child who does what a parent tells them. The child didn't do it because it was good. When the child comes of age, the child comes into the realization that the parents were having them do good.

Nakosis said:

Actually this is were you disagree with me. Unless you happen to be God posting under a pseudonym. You claim to have God but can't prove it. Anyone can make the same claim.

The topic is about moral decisions, not whether the moon is in the sky. When I or you make a decision to act. Is it a "right" one.
How that individual standard is developed is a matter of many differing influences. Culturally, for example Christianity has had a lot of cultural influence in the west. Likely why it seems natural to you. Books you read, movies you watch. Parents, teachers, experiences you've had through-out life all go into developing an individuals sense of morals.

It's part of being a social animal.



So might makes right? Whoever wins the religious war choose the right God to follow? My God is stronger then your God. Kind of the basis for religious idealism right? You can't be sure that you are following the true God until all of the false beliefs are defeated/destroyed?

Right, my argument is there is no absolute standard nor is on needed. We develop morals regardless of any standard provided by any particular deity. Whoever wins the wars gets to promote their standards. This is true whether there is or is not a God.

So you pick one deity to follow and hope you win all of the battles.

I'm not into whole might makes right kind of thinking. I'm aware that some group may come along and kick my backside. However I'm not going to change the values my morals are based on just because of that. I don't even think I could. They are what they are.

I understand most want to be on the winning team. To be on the team you have to accept the rules of the team. Team Yahweh...

My values, it's not important to be on the winning team. Different values, different morals. What I value is compassion and love. I don't need to be on the winning team for those things. My God doesn't have to beat every other God on the block.

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Yes I am speaking as God directs me and not as myself. No, I can't prove it. Anyone can make the claim but not all can live up to it.

It is possible to live according to God's standard when the culture follows the standard. However the standard is God's not the culture which quite often has other things in it as well. Now that Christianity is losing the culture war in the US, those who do not acknowledge God's standard tend to follow the culture's standard which is evil in the eyes of God.

It is more a case of the one who is right has all the might. If a man like Hitler who is evil has might for a time, he is still evil. It is comforting to know that my God is more powerful than false gods. I am sure that I am following the true God in the midst of the false gods. However those who are less sure are more susceptible to false religion.

I believe you are wrong on both counts. God provides an absolute standard and one is needed for people to know what not to do and what to do.

This is true but those morals are subjective and often not good.

The winner sets the standard but that doesn't make it a good standard.

That is like a man without a leg saying that he doesn't want a prosthetic leg because he likes the way things are.

However the loser has to be willing to accept his losses. The drunkard has to accept the fact that he can wake up in a strange woman's bed with a venereal disease. The thief has to accept the fact that he will spend years in jail. Thos who deny God have to accept the fact that life will denied for thousands of years and in the worst case scenario have to spend that time in fire.

Muffled said:

Yes I am speaking as God directs me and not as myself. No, I can't prove it. Anyone can make the claim but not all can live up to it.

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Fair enough, understanding you've given me no good reason to accept it. You're not the first to think so. That said your belief alone doesn't lend any support to your claims.

Muffled said:

It is possible to live according to God's standard when the culture follows the standard. However the standard is God's not the culture which quite often has other things in it as well. Now that Christianity is losing the culture war in the US, those who do not acknowledge God's standard tend to follow the culture's standard which is evil in the eyes of God.

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You understand many have no good reason to accept your claims or Christianity's claims of knowledge of that standard.

Muffled said:

It is more a case of the one who is right has all the might. If a man like Hitler who is evil has might for a time, he is still evil. It is comforting to know that my God is more powerful than false gods. I am sure that I am following the true God in the midst of the false gods. However those who are less sure are more susceptible to false religion.

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If your God is more powerful then why not stop evil? Why not make his presence and will known to more people?

Muffled said:

I believe you are wrong on both counts. God provides an absolute standard and one is needed for people to know what not to do and what to do.

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Yet you can't prove you know what that standard is. You have faith, not everyone has the same faith. Your faith has no value to anyone but yourself. Other people with as much faith as you place that faith in other standards. Don't they have as much reason for their faith as you have? They are choosing the best they can based on what apparently seems true to them. There's no reason to think they are any different then you or you any different then them.

Muffled said:

This is true but those morals are subjective and often not good.

The winner sets the standard but that doesn't make it a good standard.

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It's relatively good for the individual setting the standard. Or it's good according to the Gods that person chooses to believe in. You have one among many claims of God. Your God(s) having provided those morals are accountable. That I suppose relives you of accountability/responsibility for them. I however want to be accountable and I'm happy to take responsibility for my morality. Personally I don't need any God to dictate right and wrong for me.

Muffled said:

That is like a man without a leg saying that he doesn't want a prosthetic leg because he likes the way things are.

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Ok, so? I'm sure he has his reasons. I don't see the problem.

Muffled said:

However the loser has to be willing to accept his losses. The drunkard has to accept the fact that he can wake up in a strange woman's bed with a venereal disease. The thief has to accept the fact that he will spend years in jail. Thos who deny God have to accept the fact that life will denied for thousands of years and in the worst case scenario have to spend that time in fire.

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The first two statements the people who make those choices know there is a real risk involved.

For the third there is only your claim which you can't prove. If I say that If you wear red underwear you will burn in fire because God hates red. Are you going to avoid red underwear now because I claim God hates it?

Shouldn't I at least provide some proof that I have any authority to speak for God?

jtartar said:

This is just one of the reasons that God gave a Personal Letter to every human on earth, THE BIBLE.

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The Bible is full of errors and cannot be said to be what you claim it is. You and Muffled are simply guessing.

Muffled said:

Can a person rely on laws or traditions?

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Laws and traditions are only as reliable as the humans that enforce them.

Muffled said:

However they do have a knowledge of Good. God tells them what is good.

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and god also tells them what is bad...
:foot:
this myth is logically fallible.

No. The body is not naturally slothful and God made clear that tending the garden is good.

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without knowing what "good" or "evil" meant

No, I do not agree that they could do evil without knowing to do evil.

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why not..?
since you say they can do good without know what good meant...
god wanted ignorance

This is a post-fall view.

All I am saying is that they do good without knowing that it is good. When the fall comes they know what they were doing is good. It is like a child who does what a parent tells them. The child didn't do it because it was good. When the child comes of age, the child comes into the realization that the parents were having them do good.

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this is a post fall view of the pre fall...
where as you claim they knew what good meant before partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil...so if that were the case...since they didn't know what evil meant, then why hold them accountable as if they did?

Muffled said:

I would not argue for that. I am saying that there is no standard of good and evil without God giving one.

Your moral agent is either God or the devil but the devil is only interested in reversing God's standard ie God has a standard of Good and the devil has a standard of evil.

According to God no man is currently living in harmony with His standard.

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That's really too much.

My moral agent is me. While I'm not about to consider myself God I guess that leaves you to consider me the devil.

So you know, I believe in God. I just don't believe in the bigotry that you'd like to attribute to God.

Muffled said:

However they do have a knowledge of Good. God tells them what is good.

No. The body is not naturally slothful and God made clear that tending the garden is good.

No, I do not agree that they could do evil without knowing to do evil.

This is a post-fall view.

All I am saying is that they do good without knowing that it is good. When the fall comes they know what they were doing is good. It is like a child who does what a parent tells them. The child didn't do it because it was good. When the child comes of age, the child comes into the realization that the parents were having them do good.

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And the serpent supposedly told them what was bad. How would Adam or Eve know whom to believe if they didn't have the knowledge to determine good and bad for themselves?

God tells them one thing, the serpent something else. Why should they believe God over the serpent. For all they know either one could be lying through their teeth.

Sure, in hind sight, God got all medieval on their backsides and kicked them out of the garden. Still prior, what reason would they have had for trusting God over the serpent?

Muffled said:

I would not argue for that. I am saying that there is no standard of good and evil without God giving one.

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The standards are based on the needs and desires present within the human condition and experience. They are not absolute across the board, but situational with some ethics becoming universal, which makes sense since we all share the human condition to begin with.

Muffled said:

Your moral agent is either God or the devil but the devil is only interested in reversing God's standard ie God has a standard of Good and the devil has a standard of evil.

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Moral agency refers to individuals following their personal conscience without dependence on any external agency. I donate blood and volunteer to help the homeless yet I don't have a belief in a personal deity. Are these actions not good? If they are, then how can I possibly know that they are without believing in your deity?

Muffled said:

According to God no man is currently living in harmony with His standard.

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I've never heard God say this. All I hear are people speaking on his behalf based on writings by other people claiming to speak on his behalf. He seems pretty silent on the topic. He could join our conversation here if he wanted to, couldn't he?

waitasec said:

and god also tells them what is bad...
:foot:
this myth is logically fallible.

without knowing what "good" or "evil" meant

why not..?
since you say they can do good without know what good meant...
god wanted ignorance


this is a post fall view of the pre fall...
where as you claim they knew what good meant before partaking of the tree of knowledge of good and evil...so if that were the case...since they didn't know what evil meant, then why hold them accountable as if they did?

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On the surface it would appear so but most people who don't believe in following the Bible say that they can't be sure what they are told is good or not. Adam and Eve are told what is good and evil but they do not know it for themselves yet.

Because at this time they are just doing what God tells them to do and God is only telling them to do good.

They were only held accountable after the fall when they did know evil.

Nakosis said:

That's really too much.

My moral agent is me. While I'm not about to consider myself God I guess that leaves you to consider me the devil.

So you know, I believe in God. I just don't believe in the bigotry that you'd like to attribute to God.

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Of course you think that to be the case because you are not able to discern the origin of your actions. I do not consider you to be God or the devil. You have been influenced by one or the other.

God is not a bigot. He proclaims truth not opinions.

Straw Dog said:

The standards are based on the needs and desires present within the human condition and experience. They are not absolute across the board, but situational with some ethics becoming universal, which makes sense since we all share the human condition to begin with.

Moral agency refers to individuals following their personal conscience without dependence on any external agency. I donate blood and volunteer to help the homeless yet I don't have a belief in a personal deity. Are these actions not good? If they are, then how can I possibly know that they are without believing in your deity?

I've never heard God say this. All I hear are people speaking on his behalf based on writings by other people claiming to speak on his behalf. He seems pretty silent on the topic. He could join our conversation here if he wanted to, couldn't he?

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A human needs sex and God created man to have sex with one woman for life but the devil perverts that need.

Your conscience was developed over several lifetimes with influences from God and the devil. You do not see any present agency but it was there at some point to develop your conscience.

You have now heard me speak.

Muffled said:

A human needs sex and God created man to have sex with one woman for life but the devil perverts that need.

Your conscience was developed over several lifetimes with influences from God and the devil. You do not see any present agency but it was there at some point to develop your conscience.

You have now heard me speak.

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I dig the color contrast. It's like I'm reading a rainbow. :rainbow1:

Anyway, I have read your words, but I have reason to doubt that they can accurately convey or reflect an absolute Truth held by said hypothetical entity. I understand that you believe these things. Unfortunately, there's no way for you to demonstrate their validity beyond "It is true because I believe it is true." To the best of my reasoning ability, it seems highly unlikely and suspect that the Bible is the Eternal Word or that the Eternal Word can actually be adequately written in language. I could be wrong, but for the time being I cannot convince myself otherwise. You may be the official spokesman for J.C., but I prefer to wait and listen attentively to the Sacred Silence that accompanies the divine.

Muffled said:

On the surface it would appear so but most people who don't believe in following the Bible say that they can't be sure what they are told is good or not. Adam and Eve are told what is good and evil but they do not know it for themselves yet.

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and were held accountable for it..

Because at this time they are just doing what God tells them to do and God is only telling them to do good.

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so god wanted well trained pets...
"sit, roll over, play dead"

They were only held accountable after the fall when they did know evil.

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and good...

It's hard to have faith in something that doesn't feel right. For example, if Christianity didn't feel right, would you be still Christian? I'd like to see what the answer would be.

I don't see why I should be following something that leaves me with doubt and insecurities.

illykitty said:

It's hard to have faith in something that doesn't feel right. For example, if Christianity didn't feel right, would you be still Christian? I'd like to see what the answer would be.

I don't see why I should be following something that leaves me with doubt and insecurities.

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because you're faking it?
:sarcastic