Romans 1

Aqualung · Nov 15, 2005

JamesThePersian said:
And I believe the same, but I also believe that the structure of the Church as handed down by the Apostles is important, and that structure includes deacons, priests (presbyters) and bishops.

Exactly! If it wasn't important, why would Jesus waste all that time organising it in the first place? Do you think he said, "Okay, this is how I want my church to be organised. Oh wait, nevermind. Just do whatever you want." Of course not. He had a purpose to setting up his church like that.

glasgowchick · Nov 15, 2005

and you seem to think that any miracles that they perform should be on the evening news.

I haven't said that, but I am sure if there was miracles going on we would soon here about it..Jesus miracles soon spread like wild fire..I mean come off it, do you really believe that if a miracle happened people would want to keep quite about it, I know I wouldn't..

and so were Lazarus and the daugher of Jarius, and they weren't ressurections. If you want to discuss the difference we can start another thread

So what were they then ? not saying im going to agree but I would like to know what your talking about..

I'll work on that, but the book I'm thinking about is at my parent's house in Utah, and I'm in Virginia, so I'm not sure how to get it.

well don't sweat it, but can I ask where you live in VA, I lived there too at one point, my hubby was based in Norfolk and we lived in portsmouth.

glasgowchick · Nov 15, 2005

Paul states that he was qualified to be an apostle because he had seen the Lord.

1 Corinthians 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are not ye my work in the Lord?

Paul was the last eyewitness of the resurrected Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Those who claim to have seen the Lord after the apostle Paul are either deceived, or lying.

It is true that the apostle John saw the Lord on the isle of Patmos. He had already witnessed the Lord after His resurrection. Paul was the last individual to see the resurrected Christ for the first time. No one else has been with Christ besides Paul and John.

Jesus hand picked Paul and personally taught him. That is why Paul could clearly state what Jesus had said at the last supper.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Galatians 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood

There are no apostles today because no one today is doing the miracles and signs of an apostle. [weres the proof if they are doing these things...]

There are no apostles today because no one today has seen the resurrected Christ.

There are no apostles today because Jesus did not choose them.

There are no apostles today because all the apostles were Jews.

There are false apostles today!

Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

God may place it upon our hearts to do certain things but it is simply not the same as it was during the Acts of the Apostles.

Also the purpose of all the sign gifts were to confirm the word. Mark 16:20

If we can't define what is a true and what is a false apostle by bible definition what are the false apostles spoken of in the bible..how can we tell.

SoyLeche · Nov 15, 2005

You are doing a good job of making the scriptures say what you want them to. I guess we are all good at that.

Quick question, and maybe it has no bearing here whatsoever, but have you ever snuck the last of a batch of cookies and had your mother ask "who took the last cookie?" Did she mean the last there would never be any more cookies made? Up to that time it is entirely possible that Paul was the last to have seen the Lord, but that doesn't mean that others couldn't in the future.

glasgowchick · Nov 15, 2005

if you are directing that to me Soy, If I do a good Job its because thats what the Scripture teaches..Also your style of reasoning sounds very much along the same as the JWS..

SoyLeche · Nov 15, 2005

glasgowchick said:
if you are directing that to me Soy, If I do a good Job its because thats what the Scripture teaches..Also your style of reasoning sounds very much along the same as the JWS..

I was directing it to you, but not in an accusatory fashion. We all read the scriptures through the eyes of our experience and understanding. You say those scriptures mean that there will be no more apostles, I say that they mean no such thing.

BTW, is there anything wrong with the style of reasoning of the JWS?

joeboonda · Nov 15, 2005

glasgowchick said:
Paul states that he was qualified to be an apostle because he had seen the Lord.

1 Corinthians 9:1 Am I not an apostle? am I not free? have I not seen Jesus Christ our Lord? Are not ye my work in the Lord?

Paul was the last eyewitness of the resurrected Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:8 And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time.

Those who claim to have seen the Lord after the apostle Paul are either deceived, or lying.

It is true that the apostle John saw the Lord on the isle of Patmos. He had already witnessed the Lord after His resurrection. Paul was the last individual to see the resurrected Christ for the first time. No one else has been with Christ besides Paul and John.

Jesus hand picked Paul and personally taught him. That is why Paul could clearly state what Jesus had said at the last supper.

Galatians 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

Galatians 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Galatians 1:16 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood

There are no apostles today because no one today is doing the miracles and signs of an apostle. [weres the proof if they are doing these things...]

There are no apostles today because no one today has seen the resurrected Christ.

There are no apostles today because Jesus did not choose them.

There are no apostles today because all the apostles were Jews.

There are false apostles today!

Revelation 2:2 I know thy works, and thy labor, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars:

2 Corinthians 11:13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.

2 Corinthians 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

2 Corinthians 11:15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

God may place it upon our hearts to do certain things but it is simply not the same as it was during the Acts of the Apostles.

Also the purpose of all the sign gifts were to confirm the word. Mark 16:20

If we can't define what is a true and what is a false apostle by bible definition what are the false apostles spoken of in the bible..how can we tell.

Nicely said, bravo!

Aqualung · Nov 15, 2005

glasgowchick said:
if you are directing that to me Soy, If I do a good Job its because thats what the Scripture teaches..Also your style of reasoning sounds very much along the same as the JWS..

That's funny, 'cause I always thought you sounded like a JW.

glasgowchick · Nov 25, 2005

That's funny, 'cause I always thought you sounded like a JW.

Do I detect a little bit of sarcasm, if so, did you know that sarcasm is the lowest form of wit..

and no I am not a JWS..

glasgowchick · Nov 25, 2005

SoyLeche said:
I was directing it to you, but not in an accusatory fashion. We all read the scriptures through the eyes of our experience and understanding. You say those scriptures mean that there will be no more apostles, I say that they mean no such thing.

BTW, is there anything wrong with the style of reasoning of the JWS?

Well I guess we will agree to disagree..

No, I don't see anything wrong with their reasoning [ JWS ] . Do you have a book called reasoning from the scriptures ? I know they do, so to me their reasoning becomes false and not from there own thoughts...

may · Nov 26, 2005

glasgowchick said:
Well I guess we will agree to disagree..

No, I don't see anything wrong with their reasoning [ JWS ] . Do you have a book called reasoning from the scriptures ? I know they do, so to me their reasoning becomes false and not from there own thoughts...

so whats wrong with reasoning on the scriptures , the bible is supposed to be what christians base their beliefs on is it not ? why is my reasoning false ,

i have got a brain and i dont see what is wrong with reasoning about the scriptures
JW have not set out to introduce new doctrines, a new way of worship, a new religion. Instead, their modern-day history reflects conscientious effort to teach what is found in the Bible, the inspired Word of God. They point to it as the basis for all their beliefs and their way of life. Instead of developing beliefs that reflect the permissive trends of the modern world, they have sought to conform ever more closely to the Biblical teachings and practices of first-century Christianity. what is wrong with that? or have i missed the point here ?

Scuba Pete · Nov 26, 2005

Paul reasoned...

Acts 18:1 After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. 2 There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla, because Claudius had ordered all the Jews to leave Rome. Paul went to see them, 3 and because he was a tentmaker as they were, he stayed and worked with them. 4 Every Sabbath he reasoned in the synagogue, trying to persuade Jews and Greeks. NIV

As it is, we all have different levels of understanding... which deepen as we allow ourselves to be changed by the Spirit:

I Corinthians 2:6 We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8 None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him" 10 but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13 This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. 14 The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 The spiritual man makes judgments about all things, but he himself is not subject to any man's judgment:
16"For who has known the mind of the Lord
that he may instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ. NIV

I find this last verse to be one of the most precious promises we have EVER recieved. This is how Paul "knew" what he needed to know. Not that he knew everything, for we are ALL still growing into Christ, into his image, just as he is the perfect image of God.

This is why the "Law" had to go and was REPLACED with just two comandments: Love God and love everyone else. Other than that, there are NO additional rules. We just dont need them.

may · Nov 26, 2005

Eccept the necessary things of coarse

For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU! Acts 15;28-29

As for the believers from among the nations, we have sent out, rendering our decision that they should keep themselves from what is sacrificed to idols as well as from blood and what is strangled and from fornication..........Acts 21;25

Scuba Pete · Nov 26, 2005

And he changed his mind later on... saying there is NO meat that you cannot eat. Break free of legalism man!

glasgowchick · Dec 23, 2005

their modern-day history reflects conscientious effort to teach what is found in the Bible, the inspired Word of God. They point to it as the basis for all their beliefs and their way of life. Instead of developing beliefs that reflect the permissive trends of the modern world, they have sought to conform ever more closely to the Biblical teachings and practices of first-century Christianity.

Hi May, well comparing what the WT teaches to what the Bible teaches...I see a very different picture...

They Say: There is no Trinity - Let God be True, p. 100-101; Make Sure of All Things p. 386.

Gods word Says: The doctrine of the Trinity is Biblically based. (Matthew 28:19; John 14:26; John 15:26; 2 Corinthians 13:14; 1 Peter 1:2)

They Say: The Holy Spirit is God's impersonal active force - The Watchtower, June 1, 1952, p. 24

Gods Word Says: The Holy Spirit is not impersonal. (John 14:26; John 16:13 ; Acts 10:19)

They Say: Jesus was Michael the archangel who became a man, Jehovah's first creation was his 'only-begotten Son' and was used by Jehovah in creating all other things - Aid to Bible Understanding, pp. 390-391. The Watchtower, May 15, 1963, p. 307; The New Word, 284.

Gods Word Says: Jesus is the Creator not a created being. (John 1:1-3; 1 Corinthians 8:6; Colossians 1:15-17)

They Say: Jesus did not rise from the dead in his physical body - Awake! July 22, 1973, p. 4.

Gods Word Says: Jesus did rise in Body. (Luke 24:36; 1 Corinthians 15:3-8;John 20:24-29)They Say: Jesus did not die on a cross but on a stake - The Truth Shall Make You Free, p. 300.

They Say: Jesus did not die on a cross but on a stake - The Truth Shall Make You Free, p. 300.

Gods Word Says: Jesus was crucified on a cross. (John 19:17-19 ; 1 Corinthians 1:18)..They Say: Only their church members will be saved - The Watchtower, Feb. 15, 1979, p. 30.

They Say: Only their church members will be saved - The Watchtower, Feb. 15, 1979, p. 30.

Gods Word Says: Whoever believes that Jesus is Lord will be saved. (John 3:16 John 14:4-6; Romans 3:23-26)

They Say: There is no hell of fire where the wicked are punished - Let God be True, p. 79, 60.

Gods Word Says: All who deny Jesus as Lord will one day know first hand there is a Hell. (Matthew 25:41; Mark 9:44; Rev. 1:17-18; 20:10, 14-15; 21:8)

They Say: Only 144,000 Jehovah's Witness go to heaven - Reasoning from the Scriptures, 1985, pp. 166-167, 361; Let God be True, p 121.

Gods Word Says: All who believe that Jesus is Lord will enter into Heaven.(John 14:1-5, 23; Matthew 16:19)....

glasgowchick · Dec 23, 2005

For the holy spirit and we ourselves have favored adding no further burden to YOU, except these necessary things, to keep abstaining from things sacrificed to idols and from blood and from things strangled and from fornication. If YOU carefully keep yourselves from these things, YOU will prosper. Good health to YOU! Acts 15;28-29

As for the believers from among the nations, we have sent out, rendering our decision that they should keep themselves from what is sacrificed to idols as well as from blood and what is strangled and from fornication..........

Hi again May, and why was this said, I have some other thoughts on this from my footnotes..What do you think ? Acts 15:19-21 Jame's judgement was that Gentile believers did not have to be circumcised but they should stay away from food sacrified to Idols, from sexual fornication [ a comon part of idol worship ] and from consuming blood, leviticus 17:14 ] or eating meat of strangled animals. If gentile christians would abstain from these practices, they would please God and get along better with their Jewish brothers and sisters in Christ, of course other actions were inapropriate for christians but the Jews were especially concerned about these four.. The compromise helped the church grow unhindered by the cultural differences of Jews and Gentiles. I believe these instructions were given so as not to offend the Jews.

Romans 1

Aqualung

Tasty

glasgowchick

Gives Glory to God !!!

glasgowchick

Gives Glory to God !!!

SoyLeche

meh...

glasgowchick

Gives Glory to God !!!

SoyLeche

meh...

joeboonda

Well-Known Member

Aqualung

Tasty

glasgowchick

Gives Glory to God !!!

glasgowchick

Gives Glory to God !!!

may

Well-Known Member

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...

may

Well-Known Member

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...

glasgowchick

Gives Glory to God !!!

glasgowchick

Gives Glory to God !!!