There are no polytheists in the West.

You also haven't answered my questions yet king.

Why bring up the bible in relation to religions that don't use the bible? How is the bible "relevant"? Why should we have to go along with how you define God and worship?

And for that matter why does a god wanting her/his followers to follow their hearts and be true to themselves make her/him less of a god?

How is a god that acts as a teacher and a friend less of a god than the one that orders you around all the time?

MoonWater said:

You also haven't answered my questions yet king.

Why bring up the bible in relation to religions that don't use the bible? How is the bible "relevant"? Why should we have to go along with how you define God and worship?

And for that matter why does a god wanting her/his followers to follow their hearts and be true to themselves make her/him less of a god?

How is a god that acts as a teacher and a friend less of a god than the one that orders you around all the time?

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I've said that a god is whatever we trust most. It can be sex, money, power, our ability to reason and be logical, or a spiritual entity. This definition has by far the most practical implications for our life and is at the heart of who we are and where we're going. Searching for a "god" that tells you to just follow your heart is simply just looking for approval of one's own plans for their life. It's looking for a "teacher" that tells you exactly what you want to hear

KingOfTheJungle said:

I've said that a god is whatever we trust most. It can be sex, money, power, our ability to reason and be logical, or a spiritual entity. This definition has the by far the most practical implications for our life and is at the heart of who we are and where we're going. Searching for a "god" that tells you to just follow your heart is simply just looking for approval of one's own plans for their life.

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King, I don't mean to be rude, but I think you are being too insistent upon your own definition. In addition I am uncertain of what you want to gain from this thread, are you just trying to get affirmation for your beliefs?

Listen, I have been Wiccan and Christian I know the outlook of both a polytheist and monotheist and they are very diffrent. The contrast gets even stronger if we talk about the diffrences of opinion between Christians and Neo-pagans. (A group many western polytheists fall into)

By insisting on seeing this through a Christian lens and claim that it's the only useful perspective on the topic you ignore this altogheter and set the discussion up in such a way that nobody can show how you are wrong and as I have said before this means that there really isn't anything to discuss.

KingOfTheJungle said:

I've said that a god is whatever we trust most. It can be sex, money, power, our ability to reason and be logical, or a spiritual entity. This definition has by far the most practical implications for our life and is at the heart of who we are and where we're going. Searching for a "god" that tells you to just follow your heart is simply just looking for approval of one's own plans for their life.

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I don't think that the status of godhood is dependent on what people think of it if it's actually a real being with supernatural powrs. only in the metaphorical "god" sense, but your appling a metaphorical definition to a literal thing.

Thor doesn't care if you don't consider him a god, he can still kill you and still is a god. Money doesn't care if you think it's a god, it can't think and it's godhood is just a poetic metahpor. Saying that thor isnt a god because people do not trust it like money is absurd.

KingOfTheJungle said:

I've said that a god is whatever we trust most. It can be sex, money, power, our ability to reason and be logical, or a spiritual entity. This definition has by far the most practical implications for our life and is at the heart of who we are and where we're going. Searching for a "god" that tells you to just follow your heart is simply just looking for approval of one's own plans for their life. It's looking for a "teacher" that tells you exactly what you want to hear

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And I'm asking why we should take your definition over our own. Besides not everyone knows what is in their hearts or what it means to follow their heart.

Besides what makes you think we "trust our gods less" simply because we don't take orders from them? If we didn't trust them we wouldn't look to them for guidance.

Also when I speak to the gods they very rarely if ever tell me "what I want to hear". They instead tell me what I need to hear, regardless of whether I want to hear it or not.

Who are you to define our gods for us or tell us our gods are not gods because they are not how you define them?

Polarbear said:

King, I don't mean to be rude, but I think you are being too insistent upon your own definition. In addition I am uncertain of what you want to gain from this thread, are you just trying to get affirmation for your beliefs?

Listen, I have been Wiccan and Christian I know the outlook of both a polytheist and monotheist and they are very diffrent. The contrast gets even stronger if we talk about the diffrences of opinion between Christians and Neo-pagans. (A group many western polytheists fall into)

By insisting on seeing this through a Christian lens and claim that it's the only useful perspective on the topic you ignore this altogheter and set the discussion up in such a way that nobody can show how you are wrong and as I have said before this means that there really isn't anything to discuss.

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I've continually tried the same thing in as many ways possible so that people understand. I've consistently tried to communicate that a god is what what our faith is in, what our hope is in, what our trust is in above all else.

KingOfTheJungle said:

I've said that a god is whatever we trust most. It can be sex, money, power, our ability to reason and be logical, or a spiritual entity. This definition has by far the most practical implications for our life and is at the heart of who we are and where we're going.

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That definition has absolutely nothing to do with anything related to the concept of God. A god doesn´t even have to be a benevolent god, and just because one believes in many gods doesn´t mean one worships or "trusts" all of them.

By the definition you want to put in, atheism doesn´t even exist. That is nonsense.

KingOfTheJungle said:

Searching for a "god" that tells you to just follow your heart is simply just looking for approval of one's own plans for their life. It's looking for a "teacher" that tells you exactly what you want to hear

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why do you avoid the queston so much?

What does your God will gain by your obedience? Is he that will gain for your obedience or is it you that will gain from obedience?

I think you fear the question because you fear to see we are exactly the same deep down

KingOfTheJungle said:

I've continually tried the same thing in as many ways possible so that people understand. I've consistently tried to communicate that a god is what what our faith is in, what our hope is in, what our trust is in above all else.

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I think we have gotten how you define god, but that's not what I and probably the others as well take issue with. Far from it, the heart of the issue is that we have different definitions of and view god in different ways. We are responding to your claims that these are invalid and that the gods we believe (or in my case believed) in aren't really gods.

Polarbear said:

I think we have gotten how you define god, but that's not what I and probably the others as well take issue with. Far from it, the heart of the issue is that we have different definitions of and view god in different ways. We are responding to your claims that these are invalid and that the gods we believe (or in my case believed) in aren't really gods.

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"Gods" who we haven't placed our hope in have few practical implications for how we actually lives their life. People may enjoy the experience of practicing a religion and experiencing the supernatural but these experiences don't have much impact on the course one's life is headed. Sure their "gods" make a a few suggestions but at the end of the day if one's hope is ultimately in themselves, they're going to do what they want to do. Conversely, if your hope is in your gods/God, you're going to do exactly what they tell you.

KingOfTheJungle said:

Because "gods" who we haven't placed our hope in have few practical implications for how we actually lives their life. People may enjoy the experience of practicing a religion and experiencing the supernatural but these experiences don't have much impact on the course one's life is headed. Sure their "gods" make a a few suggestions but at the end of the day if one's hope is in themselves, they're going to do what they want to do.

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We all do what we want to do. Including you.

Or does your god control your mind?

You choose to do what you think your God asked of you. You do this because you think it will please him, but why will it please him? Because he needs you to do those things or because he wants the best for you and only gave you such "orders" so taht you be happy?

Me Myself said:

We all do what we want to do. Including you.

Or does your god control your mind?

You choose to do what you think your God asked of you. You do this because you think it will please him, but why will it please him? Because he needs you to do those things or because he wants the best for you and only gave you such "orders" so taht you be happy?

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It's about submitting to his will above all else, even when I don't feel like it. From a Christian perspective, the will of his God is perfect. Not pretty good or even great but perfect. I've resolved to trust his judgement above all else. He promises to give those who submit to him things that nothing else on this Earth can give in living water. He promises to provide all the things we need if we just seek his righteousness (do his will). I believe God can provide with a better life for myself than I could ever provide on my own. You ask why I submit, there's your answer.

Romans 12:1 12 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is your true and proper worship. 2 Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is —his good, pleasing and perfect will.


Matthew 6

31“Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ 32“For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33“But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
34“So do not worry about tomorrow; for tomorrow will care for itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.


John 6: 13Jesus answered, “Everyone who drinks this water will be thirsty again, 14but whoever drinks the water I give him will never thirst. Indeed, the water I give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life.”
</SPAN>

KingOfTheJungle said:

It's about submitting to his will above all else, even when I don't feel like it. From a Christian perspective, the will of his God is perfect. Not pretty good or even great but perfect. I've resolved to trust his judgement above all else. He promises to give those who submit to him things that nothing else on this Earth can give in living water. He promises to provide all the things we need if we just seek his righteousness (do his will). I believe God can provide with a better life for myself than I could ever provide on my own. You ask why I submit, there's your answer.

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In other words, you do submit to him because it is best for you.

I also think my life is better with Shiva than without him, my judgement is better when blessed by Shiva than without his blessing, the same with Ganesha.

so the only difference is that you look for God´s wisdom in some laws from years ago. We do from a direct soul to soul communication.

KingOfTheJungle said:

It's about submitting to his will above all else, even when I don't feel like it. From a Christian perspective, the will of his God is perfect. Not pretty good or even great but perfect. I've resolved to trust his judgement above all else. He promises to give those who submit to him things that nothing else on this Earth can give in living water. He promises to provide all the things we need if we just seek his righteousness (do his will). I believe God can provide with a better life for myself than I could ever provide on my own. You ask why I submit, there's your answer.

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So basically because you get something out of the deal... You want the perks he offers just as much as the polytheists who you lambaste.

If he didn't offer you the treats you'd ditch just as fast as the people you mock for picking gods at a whim.

wa:do

painted wolf said:

So basically because you get something out of the deal... You want the perks he offers just as much as the polytheists who you lambaste.

If he didn't offer you the treats you'd ditch just as fast as the people you mock for picking gods at a whim.

wa:do

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The only real difference I seem to see, is that he says he wont "immidiately" ditch him or will "ever" ditch him because he will "always" think God´s way is the best one, even if it doesn´t ever work for him and his loved ones, and he sees how acting differently would have made less people miserable and improve his life countless times.

That is pretty much the difference I see.

painted wolf said:

So basically because you get something out of the deal... You want the perks he offers just as much as the polytheists who you lambaste.

If he didn't offer you the treats you'd ditch just as fast as the people you mock for picking gods at a whim.

wa:do

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Psalm 19:7 "The law of the LORD is perfect, reviving the soul. The statutes of the LORD are trustworthy, making wise the simple'


The deal the Christian God offers is simple. Trade one's own life for the life he has for us. That means we give up some things that we might planned for our own life in exchange for his plans . That includes following his laws but is not exclusive to it. He also an individual plan for each of us. I believe even his laws are for my own good and for the good of those around me. He asks for faith even if I don't have complete picture of what his plans are for me.If I'm going to give up all that he asks me to and trust him with everything I have then he's going to actually provide something better if he is indeed benevolent and actually cares about me. I serve him because I believe he loves me and that he has and continues to demonstrate it in practical ways in my life. I want to know a God like that. If he didn't offer the deal that I talked about and just gave orders he would qualify as a dictator and perhaps a tyrrant. No I would not serve him if he just gave orders and would leave me twisting in the wind when I really needed him. I have no use for that kind of relationship with any god. If the Christian God didn't offer a better way I would do as most people do: exactly what I want. I would trust myself just like everyone else. And if I felt like the company of the supernatural I might even start gabbing away with Shiva or Satan or whoever else I could find that didn't criticize and/or place an imposition the plans that I had for myself.

You still haven't answered my questions yet King. Here they are again, I really would like to know what you have to say.

MoonWater said:

And I'm asking why we should take your definition over our own. Besides not everyone knows what is in their hearts or what it means to follow their heart.

Besides what makes you think we "trust our gods less" simply because we don't take orders from them? If we didn't trust them we wouldn't look to them for guidance.

Also when I speak to the gods they very rarely if ever tell me "what I want to hear". They instead tell me what I need to hear, regardless of whether I want to hear it or not.

Who are you to define our gods for us or tell us our gods are not gods because they are not how you define them?

Click to expand...

MoonWater said:

You still haven't answered my questions yet King. Here they are again, I really would like to know what you have to say.

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read post 149

KingOfTheJungle said:

"Gods" who we haven't placed our hope in have few practical implications for how we actually lives their life. People may enjoy the experience of practicing a religion and experiencing the supernatural but these experiences don't have much impact on the course one's life is headed. Sure their "gods" make a a few suggestions but at the end of the day if one's hope is ultimately in themselves, they're going to do what they want to do. Conversely, if your hope is in your gods/God, you're going to do exactly what they tell you.

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Pretty much none of this is right.

My Gods don't tell me what to do. They give me guidance because that's all they can do. Without that guidance, I'd not be here where I am today. Without the experiences, I'd not be what I am.

So, yeah, such experiences do effect life's course. It's subtle, but it's there.

that post doesn't answer my questions.

Why do you think we trust our gods less or have less hope in them than you or anyone else simply because we look to our gods as mentors and not masters?

Who are you to define our gods for us or tell us that our gods are not gods simply because they don't fit into your narrow definition?

Edit: and as riverwolf brought it up, Why do you think the fact that we look to our gods as mentors rather than masters lessens their impact or suddenly makes it so that they don't effect our life course?

MoonWater said:

that post doesn't answer my questions.

Why do you think we trust our gods less or have less hope in them than you or anyone else simply because we look to our gods as mentors and not masters?

Who are you to define our gods for us or tell us that our gods are not gods simply because they don't fit into your narrow definition?

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call them whatever suits your fancy. use whaever definition pleases you. It doesn't change my point about the role they truly play in one's life.