What Makes Jesus The Son Of God.The Son Of God Theory.

Deut 13:1 · Dec 21, 2005

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT said:
I wasn't trying to be funny there. Anyway, i did a bit of research....well actually i just typed in LAMO and hebrew and it came up with this.

You're using a Christian site to make a claim, I really fail to see why isaiah would go SOOOO far out of his way to give this a totally different meaning. You also failed to address why ALL the other instances of Isaiah using, avdi, refer to the nation of israel, but this one doesn't.

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT said:
To summarize: lamo is an old poetic form that seems to be a lengthening of the singular lo. But it is often used with a plural meaning. It is used with singular nouns that have a collective meaning (Rabbi Singers point in Isa. 53). But Isa. 44:15 is a clear instance where it is used in the singular for a singular noun. That it also has a singular meaning in Isa. 53:8 is confirmed by ancient copies that use lo instead of lamo.

I really have no respect for someone who claims to be a Rabbi in "Jews for Mr. J".

He also fails to address other 'smoking' guns as he calls it that are in Isaiah 53. The fact the servant has multiple deaths.

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT said:
Im sorry to say i don't understand your other points..and even so, I know who Isiah is referring to anyway..

It's very simple... Simple grammatical points. The reason you probably don't understand them is because you can't find some Jew for Mr. J who gave you an outline of what to say about Lamo - even though it's wrong - , it's a shame he's not here to debate for himself the scripture...

RAZBERRY · Dec 21, 2005

Binyamin said:
And a couple days before that, I found a story about a mother who murdered her child, what's your point?

Touche. I'm speaking generally though. About "most" mothers. Mothers killing their children is rare in comparison to mothers protecting their children, wouldn't you say?

Binyamin said:
Okay, and here we have the first problem with your logic. You're assuming this and that. If anything her actions speak volumes about her character. In your example above, the mother did everything she could to save her child, even giving up her life... Did Mary do everything in her power to save her 'one' and only son such as giving up her life? No? Then your assumption about her doing everything in her power is wrong.

No, Mary didn't do anything to save her son. I didn't say she did do anything to save him. I said she most likely would have wanted to, but doing so would be in defiance of God's will. She knew He was the Son of God, sent for the purpose of saving us. If He wasn't, why wouldn't she have saved Him? Do you suppose she enjoyed seeing her child suffer and die, for no reason (if He wasn't the Messiah)?

Binyamin said:
Zechariah 14 and Isaiah 2. I'd have to look up the exact verses, but I think it talks about it in those chapters.
So Moshiach didn't come then? Either everyone KNOWS Yeshua or they don't. You can't have it both ways.

You are waiting for the initial coming of the Messiah to save the Jews--in which case, all will know who He is. I am waiting on the return of the Messiah, for all His own--in which case, all will know who He is. I believe Zec 14 is speaking of the 2nd coming. Haven't had a chance to check out Isaiah 2 yet.

Binyamin said:
Yes, well, as Jews we don't have the idea of a New Covenent in mind. The torah is all that is needed.

As Christians, Christ is all that is needed.

Binyamin said:
Define a Christian for me, I highly doubt that 85% has much in common. I mean, the nation is what 50-50 on abortion? Seems to me that those 85% don't have much in common.

And 100% of Jews follow the torah right down to the letter?

Binyamin said:
And I HIGHLY doubt that there are more people becoming observant followers of G-d then there are people who are becoming agnostic/athiest due to the secularism of the world.

Difference of opinion, I guess. We have a lot of those.

Deut 13:1 · Dec 21, 2005

RAZBERRY said:
Touche. I'm speaking generally though. About "most" mothers. Mothers killing their children is rare in comparison to mothers protecting their children, wouldn't you say?

I don't know most mothers, so I can't really make a rash general statement about them.

RAZBERRY said:
No, Mary didn't do anything to save her son. I didn't say she did do anything to save him. I said she most likely would have wanted to, but doing so would be in defiance of God's will. She knew He was the Son of God, sent for the purpose of saving us. If He wasn't, why wouldn't she have saved Him? Do you suppose she enjoyed seeing her child suffer and die, for no reason (if He wasn't the Messiah)?

Again, what studies show this? You've offered no evidence of thus...

RAZBERRY said:
You are waiting for the initial coming of the Messiah to save the Jews--in which case, all will know who He is. I am waiting on the return of the Messiah, for all His own--in which case, all will know who He is. I believe Zec 14 is speaking of the 2nd coming. Haven't had a chance to check out Isaiah 2 yet.

RAZBERRY said:
As Christians, Christ is all that is needed.

No, we're not waiting for an initial coming, we're waiting for the one coming. I'd appreciate it if you stopped assuming Christianity and Judaism have the same messianic prophecies. Yes, well, let me know when you do look them up.

RAZBERRY said:
And 100% of Jews follow the torah right down to the letter?

Of course not, but you don't see us making claims that we do follow Torah perfectly...

We try our best to follow it, but in no way do any of us claim to be perfect.

RAZBERRY said:
Difference of opinion, I guess. We have a lot of those.

Yes, it prolly has to do with the fact Christianity and Judaism have nothing in common.

Popeyesays · Dec 21, 2005

Again we have a problem when literal fulfillment is demanded by some and metaphoric fulfillment is accepted by some. What guarantee does the TaNakh give that a particular passage will be literally fulfilled and another is fulfilled in essence?

"
The Jewish belief that the Messiah's reign lies in the future has long distinguished Jews from their Christian neighbors who believe, of course, that the Messiah came two thousand years ago in the person of Jesus. The most basic reason for the Jewish denial of the messianic claims made on Jesus' behalf is that he did not usher in world peace, as Isaiah had prophesied: "And nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore" (Isaiah 2:4). In addition, Jesus did not help bring about Jewish political sovereignty for the Jews or protection from their enemies.

A century after Jesus, large numbers of Palestinian Jews followed the wouldbe Messiah, Simon BarKokhba, in a revolt against the Romans. The results were catastrophic, and the Jews suffered a devastating defeat. In 1665-1666, large segments of world Jewry believed that Shabbetai Zvi, a Turkish Jew, was the Messiah, and confidently waited for Turkey's sultan to deliver Palestine to him. Instead, the sultan threatened Shabbetai with execution and the "Messiah" saved his life by converting to Islam.

In the modern world, Reform Judaism has long denied that there will be an individual messiah who will carry out the task of perfecting the world. Instead, the movement speaks of a future world in which human efforts, not a divinely sent messenger, will bring about a utopian age. The Reform idea has influenced many nonOrthodox Jews . . ."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/messiah.html

One cannot speak for all Christians. One cannot speak for all Baha`i's. One cannot speak for all Jews.

Regards,
Scott

RAZBERRY · Dec 22, 2005

Binyamin said:
I don't know most mothers, so I can't really make a rash general statement about them.

Okay, I accept that we'll toss common sense out the window here, for the sake of argument.

Binyamin said:
Again, what studies show this? You've offered no evidence of thus...

If Jesus had been a regular Joe (or regular Jew, in this case

), wouldn't it stand to reason His mother would have tried to save Him?
<never mind, forget reason--see above>

Binyamin said:
No, we're not waiting for an initial coming, we're waiting for the one coming. I'd appreciate it if you stopped assuming Christianity and Judaism have the same messianic prophecies. Yes, well, let me know when you do look them up.

I apologize. I guess I misspoke. You are waiting for the one and only coming. I am awaiting His return. I interpret 'everyone will know Him' as being fulfilled when He returns, you believe 'everyone will know Him' when He comes, which has yet to happen, since you don't believe Jesus is messiah.

How do you suppose many Jews have come to accept Christ in recent years? Is it out of the realm of your possibilities that God is working amongst your people?

The following is an excerpt from the article, My Spiritual Journey, written by Joel Rosenberg, an author and a converted Jew:

Just before His crucifixion, Jesus said this to His Jewish neighbors. For I tell you, you will not see Me again until you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. (Matthew 23:39). In other words, until lots of Jewish people become followers of Jesus and get excited about His return to earth, He said He isnt coming back.

Not long ago I was in Israel doing research for my fourth novel, The Copper Scroll. I was having coffee at the King David Hotel with the head of a Messianic Jewish congregation. As we looked out over the Temple Mount and the Mount of Olives, I asked him, In 1967, when I was born, how many sabras native Israeli Jews believed in Jesus?

Maybe five, maybe six, he said.

How many Israeli Jews overall in 1967 believed Jesus was the Messiah? I asked.

Based on my research, less than two hundred, he said.

Worldwide, there were only a couple of thousand Jewish believers in Jesus.

How much the world has changed since then. Today, there are between 7,000 and 10,000 Jewish believers in Jesus in Israel alone, and worldwide, conservative estimates put the number at somewhere between 75,000 to 100,000. Some believe the number is closer to 250,000. What a startling increase, and my father, and I, and three of my four sons are part of those numbers, part of that dramatic trend. Jews are turning to Jesus in record numbers, and they are getting excited about His Second Coming.

This is just one example of New Testament prophecies in process. Whether you believe the N.T. is true or not, if you've studied it at all, you have to admit, many things written in it are coming to pass right before our eyes.
Personally, I have only met two converted Jews, completely by chance, on-line. But I am only one person and I wasn't even looking.

Binyamin said:
Of course not, but you don't see us making claims that we do follow Torah perfectly...

We try our best to follow it, but in no way do any of us claim to be perfect.

Nor do Christians claim to be perfect. That goes against the very basis of our faith. If we could be perfect, why would we have ever needed Christ's sacrifice? We also do our best, which is always lacking in comparison to the Anointed One.

Binyamin said:
Yes, it prolly has to do with the fact Christianity and Judaism have nothing in common.

My Savior is Jewish, so I guess that's as close as it gets in commonality.

Deut 13:1 · Dec 22, 2005

Popeyesays said:
One cannot speak for all Christians. One cannot speak for all Baha`i's. One cannot speak for all Jews.

Regards,
Scott

Don't get me started on Reformed Judaism....

Deut 13:1 · Dec 22, 2005

RAZBERRY said:
I apologize. I guess I misspoke. You are waiting for the one and only coming. I am awaiting His return. I interpret 'everyone will know Him' as being fulfilled when He returns, you believe 'everyone will know Him' when He comes, which has yet to happen, since you don't believe Jesus is messiah.

And what in scripture gives you the opinion of 2, 3, 4, or however many comings you're expecting.

RAZBERRY said:
How do you suppose many Jews have come to accept Christ in recent years? Is it out of the realm of your possibilities that God is working amongst your people?

How do you explain the number of athiests coming? A better question is why Christian belief's are morphing to modern world beliefs (science) and totally changing the opinion of scripture that was taken literal to more symbolic now. Doesn't make a lot of sense does it? I mean if we say Christianity is Science, then who would argue??

RAZBERRY said:
The following is an excerpt from the article, My Spiritual Journey, written by Joel Rosenberg, an author and a converted Jew:

RAZBERRY said:
Just before His crucifixion, Jesus said this to His Jewish neighbors. For I tell you, you will not see Me again until you say, Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord. (Matthew 23:39). In other words, until lots of Jewish people become followers of Jesus and get excited about His return to earth, He said He isnt coming back.

Not long ago I was in Israel doing research for my fourth novel, The Copper Scroll. I was having coffee at the King David Hotel with the head of a Messianic Jewish congregation. As we looked out over the Temple Mount and the Mount of Olives, I asked him, In 1967, when I was born, how many sabras native Israeli Jews believed in Jesus?

Maybe five, maybe six, he said.

How many Israeli Jews overall in 1967 believed Jesus was the Messiah? I asked.

Based on my research, less than two hundred, he said.

Worldwide, there were only a couple of thousand Jewish believers in Jesus.

How much the world has changed since then. Today, there are between 7,000 and 10,000 Jewish believers in Jesus in Israel alone, and worldwide, conservative estimates put the number at somewhere between 75,000 to 100,000. Some believe the number is closer to 250,000. What a startling increase, and my father, and I, and three of my four sons are part of those numbers, part of that dramatic trend. Jews are turning to Jesus in record numbers, and they are getting excited about His Second Coming.

This is just one example of New Testament prophecies in process. Whether you believe the N.T. is true or not, if you've studied it at all, you have to admit, many things written in it are coming to pass right before our eyes.

What is your point with constantly posting garbage about how one Jew converted and rejected Judaism, do you want me to go post articles of single Christians converting to Judaism?

RAZBERRY said:
Personally, I have only met two converted Jews, completely by chance, on-line. But I am only one person and I wasn't even looking.

RAZBERRY said:
Nor do Christians claim to be perfect. That goes against the very basis of our faith. If we could be perfect, why would we have ever needed Christ's sacrifice? We also do our best, which is always lacking in comparison to the Anointed One.

I've met hundreds of Jews who converted to Judaism and hundreds of Jews who came back to Judaism... What's your point other then that people change their beliefs? It works both ways, let me know when you have some real evidence other then, "I know two ex-Jews" ... Then we can talk about scripture rather then your personal friends.

RAZBERRY said:
My Savior is Jewish, so I guess that's as close as it gets in commonality.

Are you Jewish??? If no, then how is your savior being Jewish and you being non-Jewish a commonality?

What Makes Jesus The Son Of God.The Son Of God Theory.

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