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Did Jesus (pbuh) really die?

Yasin

Yasin

Member
blueman said:
Jesus died and was resurrected according to 1st century writers and historians. The Quran evolved in the 7th century and begs to differ from that school of thought. Why? ;)
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Hi Blueman,

Why the Quran differs to that acount given in the Bible, is simply what i call the truth, but that is not a satisfactory answer to you, so i must produce proofs for such a different acount.
First of all lets see the stand point of the Quran concerning the Crucifixion, which acorrding to the Christain Doctrine resulted to his death. The Quran states that they (jews) did not crucify him nor did they kill him, but rather Allah (God) took him to himself, and therefore saved him.
The Quran speakes of a Gospel given to Jesus (pbuh), but that Scripture, just like all the other scriptures were meant to be only for that time, and thus were subjected to change and corruption, so the Quran came and retold the events, promising to be the Last Testament to mankind and never to be changed in anyway, which can be proved today.
There are verses in the Bible which i would like to discuss, which allude to Jesus (pbuh) not dying.

Hope that answered your question,
Respectively, Yasin:bounce
 
Yasin

Yasin

Member
BM5 said:
removing ignorance is only usefull to understanding the truth

Did He really die ?
The real question is " Can you kill Divinity " ?
Obviously not, but i already know that you deny His Divine Nature and nothing anyone can say would make a difference to your position, correct ?
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Depending on what basis you believe Jesus (pbuh) to be divine.
Respectively, Yasin:bounce
 
Popeyesays

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Yasin said:
Hi Blueman,

Why the Quran differs to that acount given in the Bible, is simply what i call the truth, but that is not a satisfactory answer to you, so i must produce proofs for such a different acount.
First of all lets see the stand point of the Quran concerning the Crucifixion, which acorrding to the Christain Doctrine resulted to his death. The Quran states that they (jews) did not crucify him nor did they kill him, but rather Allah (God) took him to himself, and therefore saved him.
The Quran speakes of a Gospel given to Jesus (pbuh), but that Scripture, just like all the other scriptures were meant to be only for that time, and thus were subjected to change and corruption, so the Quran came and retold the events, promising to be the Last Testament to mankind and never to be changed in anyway, which can be proved today.
There are verses in the Bible which i would like to discuss, which allude to Jesus (pbuh) not dying.

Hope that answered your question,
Respectively, Yasin:bounce
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Well, I believe the body of Jesus died on the cross.

The Christ, however was taken up to God.

So, I can have agreement where others have to argue.

Regards,
Scott
 
Yasin

Yasin

Member
Popeyesays said:
Well, I believe the body of Jesus died on the cross.

The Christ, however was taken up to God.

So, I can have agreement where others have to argue.

Regards,
Scott
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So your taking from both scriptures?

Respectively, Yasin:bounce
 
B

BM5

Member
Ok Yasin ya talked me into it.

I believe that the Second person of the Holy Trinity under the instructions of The Father, the First Person of the Holy Trinity, by the power of the Holy Ghost, the Third Person of the Holy Trinity ,took flesh of the sinless Virgin Mary and raised it i.e. absorbed it to Divinity. All human elements were absorbed leaving nothing but pure Divinity.

This is the most sublime and staggering mystery of humanity.

He allowed suffering for our salvation and deliberately delivered Himself to it as the greatest act of love that anyone can do.

To answer your original question, no, He did not in the sense that we understand death to be, actually die due to the injuries, it was a willull act. His Sacred Body showed to the natural eye all the usual appearances of a natural death but the Body hanging there was Divine. The executioners would not have released The Body to Our Blessed Mother and the others otherwise.
He descended into Hell and by His own power , repeat, BY HIS OWN POWER rose from the dead on the third day.

Your quote: Allah raised him up etc. is similiar to Saul of Tarsus and his usual stuff, God rasised Him from the dead, God did this , God did that to Him etc. etc. etc. So just for record I consider Saul of Tarsus and your beliefs pretty well on the same level of error.

I was much put out by the tone of your quote from your book suggesting a sham, very similiar to the Sanhedrin paying the guards at the tomb money to say someone took the Body away while they were asleep, as if they could give credible witness as to what goes on when they were asleep.
 
Yasin

Yasin

Member
BM5 said:
Ok Yasin ya talked me into it.

I believe that the Second person of the Holy Trinity under the instructions of The Father, the First Person of the Holy Trinity, by the power of the Holy Ghost, the Third Person of the Holy Trinity ,took flesh of the sinless Virgin Mary and raised it i.e. absorbed it to Divinity. All human elements were absorbed leaving nothing but pure Divinity.

This is the most sublime and staggering mystery of humanity.

He allowed suffering for our salvation and deliberately delivered Himself to it as the greatest act of love that anyone can do.

To answer your original question, no, He did not in the sense that we understand death to be, actually die due to the injuries, it was a willull act. His Sacred Body showed to the natural eye all the usual appearances of a natural death but the Body hanging there was Divine. The executioners would not have released The Body to Our Blessed Mother and the others otherwise.
He descended into Hell and by His own power , repeat, BY HIS OWN POWER rose from the dead on the third day.

Your quote: Allah raised him up etc. is similiar to Saul of Tarsus and his usual stuff, God rasised Him from the dead, God did this , God did that to Him etc. etc. etc. So just for record I consider Saul of Tarsus and your beliefs pretty well on the same level of error.

I was much put out by the tone of your quote from your book suggesting a sham, very similiar to the Sanhedrin paying the guards at the tomb money to say someone took the Body away while they were asleep, as if they could give credible witness as to what goes on when they were asleep.
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Say: Produce your Proof if ye but speak the Truth. Holy Quran 2:111

Let us see the text of the Bible for that is what we should, well you should base the evidance on.
Tell me, if Jesus (pbuh) gave his life up for us as a ultimate sacrifice, then why does he pray for rescue:
Matthew 26:37-39............Note the words "even onto Death".......Most Christians i have asked this question to, have justified it by saying that "he was man and divine, so when he prayed to God for rescue that was the human side of him"
But i would answer this by questioning, "does Jesus have two wills, GodWill and ManWill"
In the language of psychiatrists, Schizophrenia (god forbid)........But from my knowledge, did he not do the will of his Father, so were does mans will fit in?

Ps. Schizophrenia, may God forgive me for writing such a thing, believe me i mean no disrespect for Jesus Christ (pbuh) for indeed he was a noble Prophet of God, but this is what your scripture is implying or the false concept put out!

Ps. Quotion, is toooooooooooo long to write out, so check it up with your Bible. (KJV).

Please reply, because i would like this discussion to keep going.

Respectively, Yasin:bounce
 
R

Radar

Active Member
People name Jesus die every day just like people named Mohamed. And so someone does not go off siting scritures from the bible or koran or what ever I see no proof of anything in any of those books. So please stop my book say this or that and your book is wrong. People that believe the koran and are muslims don't think the bible is correct. People that believe in bible and are christain don't think the koran is correct. You both are just going off of faith which is a belief not based on logical proof or material evidence. I think it is great that you both have your faith and I hope you find your paradise but you should really try proving your points without your books because you are never going to get anywhere with each other with them. I am very glad that I am faithless.
 
Popeyesays

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Yasin said:
So your taking from both scriptures?

Respectively, Yasin:bounce
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Actually, with the guidance of my own scriptures, I am interpreting the Qur'an in such a way that it agrees with the Biblical account. B oth scriptures are the word of God, therefore both must be true.

"As to the resurrection of the body of Christ three days subsequent to His departure: This signifies the divine teachings and spiritual religion of His Holiness Christ, which constitute His spiritual body, which is living and perpetual forevermore.
By the "three days" of His death is meant that after the great martyrdom, the penetration of the divine teachings and the spread of the spiritual law became relaxed on account of the crucifixion of Christ. For the disciples were somewhat troubled by the violence of divine tests. But when they became firm, that divine spirit resurrected and that body -- which signifies the divine word -- arose.
Likewise the address of the angels to the people of Galilee, "That this Christ will return in the same way and that He will descend from heaven," is a spiritual address. For when Christ appeared, He came from heaven, although He was outwardly born from the womb of Mary. For He said: "No man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven."
He said: "I came down from heaven and likewise will go to heaven." By "heaven" is not meant this infinite phenomenal space, but "heaven" signifies the word of the divine kingdom which is the supreme station and seat of the Sun of Truth."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v1, p. 192)
 
B

BM5

Member
Mathew 26, 36-39
This is the tremendous sorrow suffered by Our Lord over the loss to Him of many who will damn themselves by choosing evil instead of good. We are all sovereign beings and the call is ours to make regarding good or evil, right or wrong, life or death.
I will point out that this Agony of Our Lord in the Garden was not the only time He felt it. He knew from Eternity of course but as GODMAN, He suffered this even from the Womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary.
We take comfort and joy from the Birthday of Our Lord, but also let us not forget the anguish He had even as an Infant, this anguish was a result of knowing what they would do to Him 33 years hence. Our Blessed Mother had similiar grief, a sword of sorrow pierced Her as Simeon the Priest fortold.
GODMAN is an acceptable name for Our Lord but there is no man/God, no duality of nature so there can only be one will and that is Divine.
 
Khale

Khale

Active Member
I am going to say that yes, Jesus died. Generally, when someone's heart and lungs stop working for more than a couple thousand years it tends to be fatal. Plus, there's the fact that he doesn't actually exist in any corporeal sense of the word.

But hey, I could be wrong. :)
 
Yasin

Yasin

Member
BM5 said:
what is this (pbuh) mean ?
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Since Jesus (pbuh) is a Prophet of God, he is treated so, by placing, PEACE BE UPON HIM, out of love and respect...........Respectively, Yasin:bounce
 
M

Moses the God Archetype*

Active Member
Yasin said:
Let's Start with this "That they rejected Faith; That they uttered against Mary A grave false charge; That they said (in boast): 'We killed Christ Jesus The son of Mary, The Messenger of Allah.' But they killed him not, Nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjunction to follow, for of a surety they killed him not. Nay, Allah raised him up Unto Himself; and Allah Is Exalted in Power, Wise. And there is none of the people of the book (Jews and Christians) But must believe in him (Jesus) Before his death; And on the Day of Judgment He (Jesus) will be a witness Against them."
4:156-159 Holy Quran[/QUOTE=MOSES] THE ARROGANCE OF YOUR FAITH WILL BE YOUR DOWNFALL,FOR I BELIVE IN KRISHNA AS THE SURPREME PERSONALITY OF THE GODHEAD DOES THAT MAKE ME WRONG,OH YASIN KRISHNA'S MACE OF CHASTISEMENT WILL BE FALL YOU SOON!Knockout
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B

BM5

Member
Yasin said:
Since Jesus (pbuh) is a Prophet of God, he is treated so, by placing, PEACE BE UPON HIM, out of love and respect...........Respectively, Yasin:bounce
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Well Yasin: have it your way ! But saying it again and again doesn't make it true !

The just Moslem and I repeat the JUST Moslem has two things going for them, one is
invincible ignorance and the other I will save for another time.

If your believe that Yahweh is going to deliver an erotic stlye Paradise to you and yours then you have got a rude awaking coming.

Bye.
 
Khale

Khale

Active Member
BM5 said:
Well Yasin: have it your way ! But saying it again and again doesn't make it true !

The just Moslem and I repeat the JUST Moslem has two things going for them, one is
invincible ignorance and the other I will save for another time.

If your believe that Yahweh is going to deliver an erotic stlye Paradise to you and yours then you have got a rude awaking coming.

Bye.
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Apparently you have acheived perfect knowledge of the afterlife. Enlighten me, what does await humanity?
 
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