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Judaism + Islam = Agnosticism?

-Peacemaker-

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
Alright, maybe it isn't a pure form of agnosticism but it seems pretty close to me. I can't help but notice that, in practice, these two religions seem to treat God as if he is distant and unknowable. Never have I heard their practitioners describe their relationship the God as something personal. Never have I heard their practitioners express an expectation of God to show up daily in their personal lives. There seems to be no expectation of prophecy, healings, or miracles. I cannot help but feel that in many ways, Christianity has more in common with the way pagan practitioners experience the supernatural than how these "Abrahamic" religions experience it.
 
Bob Dixon

Bob Dixon

>implying
... what?
Thats so... untrue...

How many Jews and Muslims do you know? Have you ever, like, read posts made my Muslims and Jews here on RF?

Actually, nevermind. Let's reverse the argument. Why do Christians seem to think that they know God so well? Why do they think that God WILL "show up daily in their personal lives"? Why do they expect miracles?
See? You can reverse the question, too.
 
-Peacemaker-

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
Bob Dixon said:
... what?
Thats so... untrue...

How many Jews and Muslims do you know? Have you ever, like, read posts made my Muslims and Jews here on RF?

Actually, nevermind. Let's reverse the argument. Why do Christians seem to think that they know God so well? Why do they think that God WILL "show up daily in their personal lives"? Why do they expect miracles?
See? You can reverse the question, too.
Click to expand...


I've seen people be healed of ailments that no doctor was able to treat. That kind of stuff strengthens one's faith
 
Levite

Levite

Higher and Higher
KingOfTheJungle said:
Alright, maybe it isn't a pure form of agnosticism but it seems pretty close to me. I can't help but notice that, in practice, these two religions seem to treat God as if he is distant and unknowable. Never have I heard their practitioners describe their relationship the God as something personal. Never have I heard their practitioners express an expectation of God to show up daily in their personal lives. There seems to be no expectation of prophecy, healings, or miracles. I cannot help but feel that in many ways, Christianity has more in common with the way pagan practitioners experience the supernatural than how these "Abrahamic" religions experience it.
Click to expand...

Belief in the frequency of miracles or in "heard" prayers doesn't constitute the sole or full definition of experiencing a personal God. People can feel that they experience a personal God if they feel God's presence in their lives, feel like He empathizes with them and is interested in their lives. Because God can be empathatic and interested in a person's life, and still find reasons not to grant a request they make in prayer, or to make a miracle on their behalf.

In my experience, many Jews experience God as very personal. And of the Muslims with whom I have been privileged to discuss theology and spirituality, many of them indicated the same.

For Jews at least-- and I think some Muslims, at least, would concur-- we see God as simultaneously transcendant and immanent, paradoxically both knowable and entirely ineffable. It's a complex theology, but then, God is complex.

As for prophecy, we believe that the age of prophets ended around the time of Ezra and Nehemiah (around 450 BCE, give or take a few decades). I believe Muslims consider Muhammad to have been the "last prophet."
 
Rainbow Mage

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
How can one define personal? I doubt Jews and Muslims would waste their time worshipping an impersonal god that doesn't care.
 
TheKnight

TheKnight

Guardian of Life
KingOfTheJungle said:
Alright, maybe it isn't a pure form of agnosticism but it seems pretty close to me. I can't help but notice that, in practice, these two religions seem to treat God as if he is distant and unknowable. Never have I heard their practitioners describe their relationship the God as something personal. Never have I heard their practitioners express an expectation of God to show up daily in their personal lives. There seems to be no expectation of prophecy, healings, or miracles. I cannot help but feel that in many ways, Christianity has more in common with the way pagan practitioners experience the supernatural than how these "Abrahamic" religions experience it.
Click to expand...

I can see how one might walk away with this perspective. Jews and Muslims, from my experience, do not talk about God in the emotional and sensationalist manner that many Christians do.

However, I have found that while many Jews (and probably some Muslisms) are more reserved about talking about God in such a manner, the sense of God being a part of one's personal life is certainly present.
 
F0uad

F0uad

Well-Known Member
I would say that God is more personal in Islam and Judaism then Christianity hence devotion, prayers, manners of speaking, religious related behaviour(rituals, laws) and more.
 
Rainbow Mage

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I will say this. Judaism and Islam show their god the respect and awe he deserves as a deity.

I would never presume as a Pagan to behave as though any of my gods exist for me and our relationship is all about what they can do for me.

Not saying all by any means, but some Christians speak of their god as though he is there to serve them with nothing expected in return except belief.

Jews and Muslims at least know when it comes to a being like Allah he is not your slave and you cannot compel him to do anything for you as though it were owed you.
 
-Peacemaker-

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
Egyptian Phoenix said:
I will say this. Judaism and Islam show their god the respect and awe he deserves as a deity.

I would never presume as a Pagan to behave as though any of my gods exist for me and our relationship is all about what they can do for me.

Not saying all by any means, but some Christians speak of their god as though he is there to serve them with nothing expected in return except belief.

Jews and Muslims at least know when it comes to a being like Allah he is not your slave and you cannot compel him to do anything for you as though it were owed you.
Click to expand...


We do live in expectaion of God to show up because we believe he's made that commitment to us, that if we seek his kingdom he will take care of what we really need. If he didn't want to make that commitment he didn't have to. There's something else. God's commandments are difficult to follow. They involve us denying ourselves quite often in our quest for satisfaction. If he doesn't offer a better alternative then what's the point of submitting in the first place?



Matthew 6: 31“Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ 32“For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33“But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
 
F0uad

F0uad

Well-Known Member
KingOfTheJungle said:
We do live in expectaion of God to show up because we believe he's made that commitment to us, that if we seek his kingdom he will take care of what we really need. If he didn't want to make that commitment he didn't have to. There's something else. God's commandments are difficult to follow. They involve us denying ourselves quite often in our quest for satisfaction. If he doesn't offer a better alternative then what's the point of submitting in the first place?



Matthew 6: 31“Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ 32“For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33“But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.
Click to expand...

How is this different from a Muslim or Jewish perspective?
 
Caladan

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
KingOfTheJungle said:
Alright, maybe it isn't a pure form of agnosticism but it seems pretty close to me. I can't help but notice that, in practice, these two religions seem to treat God as if he is distant and unknowable. Never have I heard their practitioners describe their relationship the God as something personal. Never have I heard their practitioners express an expectation of God to show up daily in their personal lives. There seems to be no expectation of prophecy, healings, or miracles. I cannot help but feel that in many ways, Christianity has more in common with the way pagan practitioners experience the supernatural than how these "Abrahamic" religions experience it.
Click to expand...
Since I take this OP to be pretty condescending, with the chance of offending other members I'll return the favour and share my opinion.
I think that Judaism and Islam are simply busy with other things than marketing God. There's a lot of wishful thinking involved when you hear a Christian talking about God, it seems to me that Jews and Muslim avoid painting God in their image and instead give him respect in a more naturalistic way.
I never considered the way many Christians describe God or their relationship with God to be in anyway appealing, it seems like a television commercial, pretty superficial and with the intent to sell you a commodity at a low cost.
 
-Peacemaker-

-Peacemaker-

.45 Cal
Caladan said:
Since I take this OP to be pretty condescending, with the chance of offending other members I'll return the favour and share my opinion.
I think that Judaism and Islam are simply busy with other things than marketing God. There's a lot of wishful thinking involved when you hear a Christian talking about God, it seems to me that Jews and Muslim avoid painting God in their image and instead give him respect in a more naturalistic way.
I never considered the way many Christians describe God or their relationship with God to be in anyway appealing, it seems like a television commercial, pretty superficial and with the intent to sell you a commodity at a low cost.
Click to expand...

Go figure. Of all the people with ties to Judaism that have responded, it's the atheist that seems to have taken the most exception to the OP. Also, while there are no Jewish evangelists to my knowledge, Islam is a different story.
 
Last edited:
1137

1137

Here until I storm off again
Premium Member
Caladan said:
Since I take this OP to be pretty condescending, with the chance of offending other members I'll return the favour and share my opinion.
I think that Judaism and Islam are simply busy with other things than marketing God. There's a lot of wishful thinking involved when you hear a Christian talking about God, it seems to me that Jews and Muslim avoid painting God in their image and instead give him respect in a more naturalistic way.
I never considered the way many Christians describe God or their relationship with God to be in anyway appealing, it seems like a television commercial, pretty superficial and with the intent to sell you a commodity at a low cost.
Click to expand...

Beautiful. I don't see what is so personal about God when you are passing Him on to every person you come across. My family has extremely close relationships with their God, especially my grandparents. Christianity has a view of a very incomplete, very strange God. In Judaism God is all, there is no Satan for us to pass evil onto. God should be respected, thanked but also hated, listened to but always questioned. I believe, reinforced by my grandmother, that me being an atheist because God seems unsupported by fact and logical inference is more respectable to this deity than someone who blindly accepts His existence. If there is a God, even though I am quite sure there is none, He will have no issues with my atheism. Can a Christian say the same?
 
H

Harmonious

Well-Known Member
KingOfTheJungle said:
Go figure. Of all the people with ties to Judaism that have responded, it's the atheist that seems to have taken the most exception to the OP. Also, while there are no Jewish evangelists to my knowledge, Islam is a different story.
Click to expand...

Your goal was to offend? Interesting.
 
Bob Dixon

Bob Dixon

>implying
Caladan said:
Since I take this OP to be pretty condescending, with the chance of offending other members I'll return the favour and share my opinion.
I think that Judaism and Islam are simply busy with other things than marketing God. There's a lot of wishful thinking involved when you hear a Christian talking about God, it seems to me that Jews and Muslim avoid painting God in their image and instead give him respect in a more naturalistic way.
I never considered the way many Christians describe God or their relationship with God to be in anyway appealing, it seems like a television commercial, pretty superficial and with the intent to sell you a commodity at a low cost.
Click to expand...

I can't Frubal you right now, so I'll just compliment you on your post-making skills right here, directly.

Though I'd say that Muslims do their own fair share of marketing, it doesn't often seem like a "television commercial".
 
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