Shermana
Heretic
Did you miss the part where it says that the power to forgive sins was given to him and that he gave such power to his disciples?
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Does Jesus claim to be god?
- Thread starter Leonardo
- Start date
Did you miss the part where it says that the power to forgive sins was given to him and that he gave such power to his disciples?
Gharib
I want Khilafah back
Do you mind posting some of those verses?
Luke 5:17-26
records that four men brought their paralysed friend to Jesus to be healed. When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralysed man "Man, your sins are forgiven you." 5:20 Some of those present began to reason "Who is this who speaks blasphemies? Who can forgive sins but God alone?" ... Jesus responded "... But that you might know the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins" - He said to the man who was paralysed "I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house" Immediately he rose up before them ... and departed to his house.
Luke 7:36-50
reports a woman 'who was a sinner' who came and annointed Jesus feet. Jesus declared to those around I say to you, her sins which are many, are forgiven, for she loved much. But to whom little is forgiven, the same loves little" And he said to her "Your sins are forgiven" ... "Your faith has saved you. Go in peace"
Mark 2:1-12
2 A few days later, when Jesus again entered Capernaum, the people heard that he had come home. 2 They gathered in such large numbers that there was no room left, not even outside the door, and he preached the word to them. 3 Some men came, bringing to him a paralyzed man, carried by four of them. 4 Since they could not get him to Jesus because of the crowd, they made an opening in the roof above Jesus by digging through it and then lowered the mat the man was lying on. 5 When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralyzed man, Son, your sins are forgiven.
6 Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, 7 Why does this fellow talk like that? Hes blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?
8 Immediately Jesus knew in his spirit that this was what they were thinking in their hearts, and he said to them, Why are you thinking these things? 9 Which is easier: to say to this paralyzed man, Your sins are forgiven, or to say, Get up, take your mat and walk? 10 But I want you to know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sins. So he said to the man, 11 I tell you, get up, take your mat and go home. 12 He got up, took his mat and walked out in full view of them all. This amazed everyone and they praised God, saying, We have never seen anything like this!
Matthew 9:1-8
Jesus stepped into a boat, crossed over and came to his own town. 2 Some men brought to him a paralytic, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.
3 At this, some of the teachers of the Law said to themselves, This fellow is blaspheming!
4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts? 5 Which is easier: to say, Your sins are forgiven, or to say, Get up and walk? 6 But so that you might know that the Son of Man has authority on earth to forgive sin . . . . Then he said to the paralytic, Get up, take your mat and go home.
7 And the man got up and went home. 8 When the crowd saw this, they were filled with awe, and they praised God, who had given such authority to men.
Rocky S
Christian Goth
Yes. matter fact when he would make those statements concerning forgiving sins in the bible, the religious leader would yell out blasphemy as they did when Jesus claimed to be I Am. As in the old testament when moses ask God you do you want me to tell pharaoh who sent me, God said tel pharaoh I Am sent you.
Shermana
Heretic
Jesus never claimed to be "I am" (And the name itself is I shall be), he stated "I am" as a part of a sentence. It's also important to recognize that "I am" in Greek is often translated as "I was". Several translations have John 8:58 as "Before Abraham was, I was", including Trintarian translations! (Some have said the traditional "I AM" rendering is totally Modalist). What they would have been calling Jesus for blasphemy would be claiming to be a god, a long-living being, not necessarily for being God himself. And besides, the name is "I shall be" and I can argue that heavily, if you disagree, show a single use of Eyheh in the Hebrew that means "I am" as opposed to "I have been" or "I shall be" and compare to all the hundreds of times it does NOT mean "I am". I will be quite happy to discuss this issue in detail if need be, including Theodotion's and Aquilla's Septuagints that render Exodus 3:14 as "I shall be" directly in the Greek. It appears the Sinaiticus represents a later tradition of translating that verse, probably due to Trinitarian influence.
For example, if someone said "Are you Shermana" and I said "Why yes I am", by your logic, I would have claimed to be "I am". But he was using the terms "I am" to mean "I was". If he was saying he was "I am", he would have said "I am I am". Notice that the name "I am" is used as a name, as a proper noun. "Tell them that "I am" sent you" is not the same as "I am Shermana", Jesus uses the words "I am" as words, not a name.
As for the forgiveness, again, for some reason he gives his disciples the power to forgive sin, and he said the power was GIVEN to him.
To be GIVEN something, someone ELSE must give it.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Acts 2:22 says that Jesus(p) is man and the New-testament refers Jesus(p) 82 times as son of man, however Numbers 23:19 says that god is NOT MAN NOR SON OF MAN.
If Jesus(p) is god and conceived by a woman hes mother marry(p) then how does it fit Job 25 what says that God doesn't get conceived by a woman because its unclean..
If Jesus(p) is god then he made the laws that were given to Moses(p). If that is the case why would he contradict hes own law by sacrificing himself since Human-Sacrifices are forbidden in the law: (Leviticus 20:1-5). Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, and 32:35
Please some clarifications?
If Jesus(p) is god and conceived by a woman hes mother marry(p) then how does it fit Job 25 what says that God doesn't get conceived by a woman because its unclean..
If Jesus(p) is god then he made the laws that were given to Moses(p). If that is the case why would he contradict hes own law by sacrificing himself since Human-Sacrifices are forbidden in the law: (Leviticus 20:1-5). Jeremiah 7:31, 19:5, and 32:35
Please some clarifications?
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Rocky S
Christian Goth
reach:Hi Shermana I know in trying to convince you is futile. But I am sorry Jesus being God made flesh is a foundational teaching in Christianity. and any deviation from that is not Christian but something else altogether. People cannot just come up with there own set of beliefs when a set dogma has been established by the bible and the church. If people do this they run the risk of heresy. That is why the bible says anyone who denies that Jesus came in the flesh is an anti-Christ. The Dogma of that scripture means Jesus' incarnation. Now concerning the I Am John 8:58-59 saysJesus said unto them, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I AM".
Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by." Why did the Pharisees want to kill him for using that phrase? It is because they knew what he was saying. He was professing his deity..
There is no trinitarian influence. The Trinity is a Christian Doctrine and always has been; proponents of this came latter.But that may be little off the subject.... Yeah I know, you like my little preacher smiley thingy up there don't ya.lol
Shermana
Heretic
Umm, did you actually refute anything I said? You're right, trying to convince me in such a way where you completely ignore the actual grammar and language issues and go by traditional orthodox ideas and thinking that you're scaring me about "heresy" is probably going to be futile. Especially when I've heard these debunked arguments more times than I'd like to count.
Now perhaps you may have not caught what I said, but there's many reasons for blasphemy why they'd take up stones to stone him, such as declaring himself to be a being that had existed since before Abraham.
What was his charge exactly in 10:36?
And no, the Trinity has not "Always been" Christian dogma, it's been perhaps since the late 2nd century but it was virtually unknown before then, the idea that Jesus was God would have been totally alien to the original Disciples.
Also, perhaps you'd like to explain what Jesus meant in 10:34.
Now as for the dogma being "established by the Bible", I would say that believing in the Trinity goes completely against the "Dogma established by the Bible".
If you're not interested in actual debate, we can make a Providential bet....
Now perhaps you may have not caught what I said, but there's many reasons for blasphemy why they'd take up stones to stone him, such as declaring himself to be a being that had existed since before Abraham.
What was his charge exactly in 10:36?
And no, the Trinity has not "Always been" Christian dogma, it's been perhaps since the late 2nd century but it was virtually unknown before then, the idea that Jesus was God would have been totally alien to the original Disciples.
Somehow Trinitarians often think that this verse means anyone who denies that Jesus was GOD in the flesh. Weren't you telling me that John's epistles was all about writing against "Gnostic" ideas like Jesus didn't have a body? You should know firsthand. Now kindly and honorably admit that the verse in question does not mention anything about accepting that Jesus was God, but about accepting that he as a being came in the flesh, that's all. Anything from there is a presumption. It's a true testament to the way Trinitarians have historically twisted the meanings of passages to get what they want it to say while ignoring the immediate value, i.e. contending against Docetists and such.
Also, perhaps you'd like to explain what Jesus meant in 10:34.
WHich Church? The Catholic? The Greek Orthodox? That's a nice way to try to quash any argument that goes against Traditional interpretation, but you're gonna have a BIG can of worms with it. So tell me, which beliefs and dogmas of which church are true? Or are you talking about just the ones they all agreed on? Do you have any proof that this church believed this teaching since the days of the Disciples? Or do you believe that whatever the majority consented to as the years went on should be considered doctrine? And if so, why the Roman orthodox and why not the Ethiopian Church? Unless you're Catholic or Greek Orthodox, I'd highly recommend rethinking this very anti-intellectual attack against independent study.
Now as for the dogma being "established by the Bible", I would say that believing in the Trinity goes completely against the "Dogma established by the Bible".
If you're not interested in actual debate, we can make a Providential bet....
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cocolia42
Active Member
A Christian is someone who believes Jesus was the Christ (anointed one) and follows his teaching. Period. I am a Christian. I absolutely do not believe Jesus is/was/will be God. Jesus was a prophet.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
Mormons actually do believe that Jesus is "God." We just believe He is physically distinct from "God the Father." We don't believe they are "one in essence" but "one in will and purpose." Either one may accurately be referred to as "God," as long as it is understood that they are two divine beings who share that title. In other words, "God" can be thought of as a collective noun -- one body (like a team, for instance) made up of separate individuals who are working for the same end and are perfectly united in their desires for mankind.
Dirty Penguin
Master Of Ceremony
Rocky S
Christian Goth
Hello FOuad:
The Son of Man refers to his humanity. When he came to the earth. We Christians believe in the Hypo-static Union of Christ, meaning 100% God 100% man. However not God the Father But 2nd person on the trinity equally divine and in Deity with the Father. Now concerning the prophecy from Balaam to to the king of Moab Balak, in Numbers 23:19; you have to look at the whole scripture:it says; God [is] not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do [it]? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" Has nothing to do with Jesus being the Son or not being God. This scripture simply referring to what was going on with Balaak. God was saying he is not a man that lies neither a son of man that changes his mind,like men change there mind or changes. Also The son of man here as no definite article in the Hebrew. For example Here it means like ,nor the son of a man. or sons of man like, not the man, but a man.
Again context, that is not what it says at all. Your punctuation is a little off here, and how you worded this, sorry but is a little off as well. This is a guy named Bildad talking to Job and it is actually worded like this: How then can man be justified with God? or how can he (man) be clean [that is] born of a woman? Or how can a man be righteous in his self before a Holy God. Oh and something else. Jesus Was conceived supernaturally of the Holy Ghost that is why he is called the Son of God. Not that God created him because Jesus is eternal and always was, like the Father. He was and is not a created being before he came to the earth.
Very good question. The law is all typical and a foreshadowing of Christ. even the animals sacrifices all point to the Cross. Yes Human sacrifice is forbidden like the babies that were sacrificed to moleck and other pagan Gods. You see in the old testament animals were used, as you may very well know. The animals were without spot or blemish. This typified of Christ and his sinless nature. See its not a human sacrifice, human sacrifice cannot atone for sin because all humans have a sin nature so therefore is not a perfect sacrifice,that is a pagan concept. Because of his divinity Jesus was sinless (without spot or blemish) and was the perfect Lamb of God that takes away the sins of the world. Jesus was a sin offering and a burnt offering. We Christians believe that because of the cross and what Jesus there did atones for all sin, (the breaking of Gods law). Like it is in the levitical Law the sins were put on the animal typifying Christ, so our sins were put on Jesus when he hung in that tree. and like the burnt offerings the unblimishness of the animal so to speak was imputed to the individual, but the animal sacrifices could not really accomplish this it was only a foreshadowing of the new covenant, and Gods redemptive plan for man Just as the burnt offering aging (typified of Christ) the righteousness of Christ is imputed to us. It is Not the concept of human sacrifice as the pagans did. But a fulfilling of the law, all of the law..
Rocky S
Christian Goth
How can a Prophet Die on a Cross and atone for sins?
cocolia42
Active Member
a Prophet can do whatever God gives him the power to do
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Hi.
I think you forgot the verse where it says that Jesus(p) is man as you also belief so how does that fit into the picture. You agreed above that verse explains that God is not man however when we read: Acts 2:22: Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
and not forgetting that Jesus(p) is refereed 82times as Son Of Man. I am still confused your argument is that Jesus(p) had two natures however God himself states that he isn't man therefore that nature shouldn't be there in the first place. I also do not see how Mark 12:29 Fits the picture what states: The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. where he excludes himself of being that god by saying ''Our'' and not in me.
Why context again? You interpret the verse the exact same way i do, however you do not see the problem. You belief (if i am correct) that Marry(p) conceived him so a ''woman'' so how does this changes anything i said before, with all respect?
I also never mentioned anything about creation.You pretty sure know how to make contradictings in your own posts i highlighted them above. If i am correct your mixing the idea that animal-sacrifices are the same as human-sacrifices they are not, one is forbidden and the other isn't. As i said before in Matthew 5:17 and following, it states that Jesus(p) wouldn't break any of these laws so how could he break hes own promise and law? Your theology what isn't supported in the Bible what also contradict some verses that strictly say ''The one who sins should be punished on hes own accord'' is very confusing maybe you can give me a easier one?
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Rocky S
Christian Goth
No I am not saying that animal sacrifices are the same as humans sacrifices I was merely trying to explain Christs sacrifice. I will elaborate in a bit, and comment on the other things you have stated.Hi.
I think you forgot the verse where it says that Jesus(p) is man as you also belief so how does that fit into the picture. You agreed above that verse explains that God is not man however when we read: Acts 2:22: Fellow Israelites, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
and not forgetting that Jesus(p) is refereed 82times as Son Of Man. I am still confused your argument is that Jesus(p) had two natures however God himself states that he isn't man therefore that nature shouldn't be there in the first place. I also do not see how Mark 12:29 Fits the picture what states: The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. where he excludes himself of being that god by saying ''Our'' and not in me.
Why context again? You interpret the verse the exact same way i do, however you do not see the problem. You belief (if i am correct) that Marry(p) conceived him so a ''woman'' so how does this changes anything i said before, with all respect?
You pretty sure know how to make contradictings in your own posts i highlighted them above. If i am correct your mixing the idea that animal-sacrifices are the same as human-sacrifices they are not, one is forbidden and the other isn't. As i said before in Matthew 5:17 and following, it states that Jesus(p) wouldn't break any of these laws so how could he break hes own promise and law? Your theology what isn't supported in the Bible what also contradict some verses that strictly say ''The one who sins should be punished on hes own accord'' is very confusing maybe you can give me a easier one?
cocolia42
Active Member
Christians have been debating this amongst themselves for literally centuries. It is not going to be solved on this forum. And I respect your beliefs as I cannot pretend to know what knowledge God wants you to have. Instead of saying we Christians, perhaps you could say many Christians?