Ex Christians

Vadergirl123 · Jun 14, 2012

waitasec said:
then it's based on faith
and i base my morality on what i think is right...
which is pretty much what you are doing...

What's based on faith? What if I also based my morals on what I think/feel is right/wrong. If my morals go against your morals, which one of us would be right?

waitasec said:
if you would feel terrible, then heaven would cease to be heaven.

Heavn isn't about how many loved ones you'll be with. That's what T.V makes it seem like. Heaven is about being with God for eternity.

waitasec · Jun 14, 2012

Vadergirl123 said:
I don't compare myself to people to determine my own self-worth. And I don't compare people to me. I compare their beliefs to what the Bible says.

right.you are comparing your beliefs to theirs.

You shouldn't take anyone's, "word for it" Look in the Bible yourself. An example would be me telling you stealing si wrong(because the Bible says so) but someone else tells you stealing is right, God wants you to it. It would be pretty hard to decide who's right without looking in the Bible yourself.

with all due respect, the bible doesn't prove anything. i will not take the bible at face value. that is where you and i differ. i need empirical truth, you rely on faith. i need an outside secondary source to confirm what the bible claims...there aren't any.

Vadergirl123 · Jun 14, 2012

waitasec said:
you do understand that your belief is purely subjective, right?

Well actually the only way I added the phrase, "I believe" was b/c I got a P.M telling me I can't state things so it sounds like my belief is better than someone elses, or it was something like that, so I'm trying to be more carefull. I would usually just say the Bible is true whether I believe it or not,In fact I think I already told you that.

waitasec · Jun 14, 2012

Vadergirl123 said:
That's what you think the point of Deuteronomy 22:13-21 is? That the guy has a way out after sex?? That's very interesting.

yes. why then mention this
13 If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her , dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,

:shrug:

Right and if they produce the proof he has to pay because he gave her a bad name.

it's about the proof...so how else would an ignorant people prove to their self a girl is a virgin? god help the one who doesn't bleed, right?

Yep and as I pointed out awhile ago they would've used some other method to prove she was a virgin. Of course God knows that, and I'm willing to bet not one women was killed if she truly was a virgin.

ok what was that method and where is it mentioned in the bible?

why?

Vadergirl123 · Jun 14, 2012

waitasec said:
the bible IS understood subjectively.
since your god is mute and depends on 3rd party revelation, there is no wonder why there are so many denominations

Mute?? That's what the Bible is for.

waitasec said:
that isn't the subjective understanding i'm talking about. the subjective understanding is that you take it as the word of god based on hearsay, faith, and wishful thinking not if you agree or disagree with what it says.

Oh well I don't base my understanding of the Bible on heresay or wishful thinking.

Vadergirl123 · Jun 14, 2012

waitasec said:
ah...so then it is about comparing yourself to others.
what makes you feel like a christian is basing your subjective faith on a book that cannot be verified as the word of god, other than what it says about itself and what makes them non christians is that they go by their own subjective faith on feelings

lt's still based on personal feelings, isn't it?

I'm NOT comparing myself to others. I'm comparing their beliefs tow hat the Bible says. Again I don't base how I read the Bible on how I feel. It is verified. There's no reason to believe it's not God's word. I don't believe you should let your feelings guide you, so no me believing the Bible isn't a "personal feeling."

waitasec · Jun 14, 2012

Vadergirl123 said:
Well actually the only way I added the phrase, "I believe" was b/c I got a P.M telling me I can't state things so it sounds like my belief is better than someone elses, or it was something like that, so I'm trying to be more carefull. I would usually just say the Bible is true whether I believe it or not,In fact I think I already told you that.

hmmm, i'm trying to give you insight from my perspective.
in fact, there are many many different perspectives.

i was looking at half dome the other day from one perspective...went to the other side and it looked completely different, it was the same granite dome but a i saw a completely different perspective of it.
there are no wrong perspectives as far as i am concerned. if i see something you can't and i say you are blind it's like calling a color blind person blind...it doesn't make sense.
when making blanket statements that cannot be determined or supported except through faith one has to realize that it is ultimately subjective therefore their truth doesn't necessarily apply to other peoples truth.

does that make sense?

i am looking for truth too.

waitasec · Jun 14, 2012

Vadergirl123 said:
Mute?? That's what the Bible is for.

yes mute as there is nothing else that can verify what it claims to be true.

Oh well I don't base my understanding of the Bible on heresay or wishful thinking.

you base it on faith don't you?

Vadergirl123 · Jun 14, 2012

waitasec said:
yes. why then mention this
13 If a man takes a wife and, after sleeping with her , dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity,

To show what happens to the guy if X. The passage is giving laws.

waitasec said:
it's about the proof...so how else would an ignorant people prove to their self a girl is a virgin? god help the one who doesn't bleed, right?

I don't know, but they must've had something, because it says "if no proof can be found."(vs 20) why say that if the only source of the proof was a cloth.

waitasec said:
ok what was that method and where is it mentioned in the bible?

I don't know what it is the Bible doesn't say.

waitasec · Jun 14, 2012

Vadergirl123 said:
I'm NOT comparing myself to others. I'm comparing their beliefs tow hat the Bible says. Again I don't base how I read the Bible on how I feel. It is verified. There's no reason to believe it's not God's word. I don't believe you should let your feelings guide you, so no me believing the Bible isn't a "personal feeling."

what i am trying to explain is that the bible says different things to different people. the way in which you interpret the bible isn't going to be the same as another person who is just as genuine in their pursuit for "gods truth" to be revealed to them because the bible has nothing but itself to support it's unsupportable claims.

even you in your daily life get 2nd opinions. why isn't that applied to the bible?

Vadergirl123 · Jun 14, 2012

waitasec said:
right.you are comparing your beliefs to theirs.

Yep I am

waitasec said:
with all due respect, the bible doesn't prove anything
i will not take the bible at face value. that is where you and i differ

.
Well in that case you can't know who's right or wrong about what they say about the Bible.

waitasec said:
i need an outside secondary source to confirm what the bible claims...there aren't any.

Fair enough, what "outside source" do you want?

waitasec · Jun 14, 2012

Vadergirl123 said:
To show what happens to the guy if X. The passage is giving laws.

no to justify stoning a girl who didn't bleed.

I don't know, but they must've had something, because it says "if no proof can be found."(vs 20) why say that if the only source of the proof was a cloth.

because that was the only source that sufficed those ignorant minds of that time

I don't know what it is the Bible doesn't say.

and where else is one to find the justification of stoning a girl if she doesn't bleed...? stoning a girl who doesn't bleed IS in the bible...

Vadergirl123 · Jun 14, 2012

waitasec said:
what i am trying to explain is that the bible says different things to different people.

First off I'm not saying people aren't, "looking for truth" however the Bible doesn't say different things to different people. The words don't change when a new person looks at them.
Do you think it'd be right for me to read the verse Jesus wept and say, "oh Jesus was weeping" and then someone else comes and says Jesus never cried that verse just means he felt sad inside. Do you see the problem? One person reads the verse and takes it as it is, the other decides the passage can't be saying A and changes the meaning to fit with what they believe.

waitasec · Jun 14, 2012

Vadergirl123 said:
Yep I am

why though?

.

Well in that case you can't know who's right or wrong about what they say about the Bible.

right.

Fair enough, what "outside source" do you want?

all i know is that we are surrounded by indifference.
indifference is not a source.
as far as i am concerned i have been fortunate to have a job a family and good health, but that can all change in a split second...which is why i live for today and not tomorrow.

waitasec · Jun 14, 2012

Vadergirl123 said:
First off I'm not saying people aren't, "looking for truth" however the Bible doesn't say different things to different people.

then why are there so many different intrepretations of the bible?

The words don't change when a new person looks at them.

you have to consider a few things in order to understand the true intention of what the bible is conveying.
culture, ignorance and plight.

Do you think it'd be right for me to read the verse Jesus wept and say, "oh Jesus was weeping" and then someone else comes and says Jesus never cried that verse just means he felt sad inside. Do you see the problem?
One person reads the verse and takes it as it is, the other decides the passage can't be saying A and changes the meaning to fit with what they believe.

mark 16:16 can cause others to make a tragic mistake, while some understand the context where it came from and won't commit such a horrific act.

waitasec · Jun 14, 2012

i didn't see this before.

Vadergirl123 said:
What's based on faith?

your criteria

What if I also based my morals on what I think/feel is right/wrong. If my morals go against your morals, which one of us would be right?

the way to solve that problem is to not go against ones personal morals.

edit:
and stop comparing yourself to others.

Heavn isn't about how many loved ones you'll be with. That's what T.V makes it seem like. Heaven is about being with God for eternity.

then why is salvation based on how we treat others?
in fact it is the 2nd greatest commandment.
consider matthew 22 and 25....

Alceste · Jun 15, 2012

Vadergirl123 said:
If you read the entire passage you'll see that she's being stoned because she had been having other sexual relationships within her father's house.

Once again, to be completely clear, she is being stoned because her husband accused her of not being a virgin and her parents failed to show a bloody sheet to the village elders. I don't know why you refuse to understand that passage. Is it because understanding it reveals that the morality described in the Bible is barbaric and misogynistic?

How do you feel about honor killing, by the way? If your daughter didn't bleed on her wedding night, would you have her killed for bringing shame onto your family?

waitasec · Jun 15, 2012

Alceste said:
Once again, to be completely clear, she is being stoned because her husband accused her of not being a virgin and her parents failed to show a bloody sheet to the village elders. I don't know why you refuse to understand that passage. Is it because understanding it reveals that the morality described in the Bible is barbaric and misogynistic?

How do you feel about honor killing, by the way? If your daughter didn't bleed on her wedding night, would you have her killed for bringing shame onto your family?

not only that...it shows morality was also based on ignorance ordained by god...

Alceste · Jun 15, 2012

waitasec said:
not only that...it shows morality was also based on ignorance ordained by god...

No kidding! Apparently God wants us leaping to the worst possible conclusions, based on the weakest possible evidence, and taking the most drastic and irreversible possible remedial action.

"Where there's smoke, there's fire" ~ God

Hope · Jun 15, 2012

waitasec said:
the way to solve that problem is to not go against ones personal morals.

So, if my personal morals say it's ok to murder someone, then you can't tell me it's not ok, right? Because, should I listen to you, I'd be going against my personal morals.

You're pulling the old relativism card, and, sorry, it doesn't work. At all. Vadergirl makes an excellent point. There has to be an absolute set of morals out there, independent of us, and what we think or feel has nothing to do with it. If we all simply go by what we think or feel, and do each of us, as the Bible says, "what is right in our own eyes," then we are all drifting aimlessly about, with no fixed point to guide us. Without an absolute set of morals, society disintegrates. When "relativistic" morality takes over, chaos reigns supreme.

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