sincerly
Well-Known Member
Shermana, Paul is expressing the same principles as was given in Ezekiel 18.
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What does it mean to "deny" Jesus, according to the NT?
- Thread starter punkdbass
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Shermana, Paul is expressing the same principles as was given in Ezekiel 18.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Shermana, The prophecies of Daniel need to be understood. (7:24-25), "And he shall speak [great] words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."
Paul in 2Thes.2:3-4, refers to this same entity and brings in more details. "Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God."
Later, in Paul's last meeting with the Ephesian leaders(before his arrest), he warns those leaders(Acts20:28-30), " Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock. Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them."
Now look at Revelation 2:4,(Jesus rebuking the Church of Ephesus) "Nevertheless I have [somewhat] against thee, because thou hast left thy first love".
Those "early church fathers-ecf" began early to "Think to change times and laws" of GOD.
While rooting out some "heretical ideas", they accepted others.
Eusebius(one of the ecf) acknowledged/wrote this: "ALL the things whatsoever it was duty to do on the Sabbath, these we have transferred to the Lord's day". He was contemporary with Emperor Constantine.
John was true to the scriptures and Jesus---Caius was an adversary to John and the scriptures---What little is written concerning him.
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The word "fornication" has to be the most mistranslated word in the Bible.
If you really want to see bad translation in action .. that is where to find it.
Shermana
Heretic
Care to explain how that proves that John wrote John?
Okay, so that verse is supposed to somehow prove that John wrote John? Or are you just being a Poe?
Oh isn't that interesting, Jesus is rebuking people who preach changing the Laws of God. Of course that can't possibly mean someone saying to not follow the Laws of Moses and "times" like Sabbath, not possibly, not at all! Of course not. (Cough).
That would be a good thing to go into detail about. But perhaps you'd like to explain how that proves that John wrote John.
So are you agreeing then that the Sabbath day is to be honored and the Laws of God (given to Moses) are to be fully obeyed?
Excellent job of debunking in detail my claim with sources and reasons, you have truly done your homework in showing how Cerinthus was not the author of John, and you didn't just make bare unsupported assertions yourself but actually carefully came up with a logical explanation why not, thanks for a great explanation on why Caius was wrong. (Disclaimer for those who the disclaimer is necessary for: That was all sarcasm).
Perhaps you'd like to explain how you know for a fact that John wrote John and Revelation.
Are you serious? Do you think that in any way shows that John was the one who wrote John and not Cerinthus? Is that your idea of a detailed explanation?
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Shermana
Heretic
Okay, so what does that have to do with what Paul said about how unrepentant fornicators don't go to Heaven? Explain your answer of why comparing to Ezekiel 18 somehow conveys what Paul is expressing. Which part, feel free to show the exact comparison and how it defines what Paul is expressing.
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by sincerly
Shermana, Paul is expressing the same principles as was given in Ezekiel 18.
The Hebrew word zanah is translated
1) to commit fornication, be a harlot, play the harlot
a) (Qal)
1) to be a harlot, act as a harlot, commit fornication
2) to commit adultery
3) to be a cult prostitute
4) to be unfaithful (to God) (fig.)
b) (Pual) to play the harlot
c) (Hiphil)
1) to cause to commit adultery
2) to force into prostitution
3) to commit fornication
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 93
AV — ...harlot 36, go a whoring 19, ...whoredom 15, whore 11, commit fornication 3, whorish 3, harlot + 0802 2, commit 1, continually 1, great 1, whore's + 0802 1
In the Greek: pornos=
1) a man who prostitutes his body to another's lust for hire
2) a male prostitute
3) a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 10
AV — fornicator 5, whoremonger 5
In Greek: adulterer=moichos=1) an adulterer
2) metaph. one who is faithless toward God, ungodly
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 4
AV — adulterer 4
In Greek: Whore=pornē=1) a woman who sells her body for sexual uses
a) a prostitute, a harlot, one who yields herself to defilement for the sake of gain
b) any woman indulging in unlawful sexual intercourse, whether for gain or for lust
2) metaph. an idolatress
a) of "Babylon" i.e. Rome, the chief seat of idolatry
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 12
AV — harlot 8, whore 4
1Cor.6:9-11, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. "
Repentance makes the difference. Ezek.18.
Shermana, Paul is expressing the same principles as was given in Ezekiel 18.
The Hebrew word zanah is translated
1) to commit fornication, be a harlot, play the harlot
a) (Qal)
1) to be a harlot, act as a harlot, commit fornication
2) to commit adultery
3) to be a cult prostitute
4) to be unfaithful (to God) (fig.)
b) (Pual) to play the harlot
c) (Hiphil)
1) to cause to commit adultery
2) to force into prostitution
3) to commit fornication
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 93
AV — ...harlot 36, go a whoring 19, ...whoredom 15, whore 11, commit fornication 3, whorish 3, harlot + 0802 2, commit 1, continually 1, great 1, whore's + 0802 1
In the Greek: pornos=
1) a man who prostitutes his body to another's lust for hire
2) a male prostitute
3) a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 10
AV — fornicator 5, whoremonger 5
In Greek: adulterer=moichos=1) an adulterer
2) metaph. one who is faithless toward God, ungodly
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 4
AV — adulterer 4
In Greek: Whore=pornē=1) a woman who sells her body for sexual uses
a) a prostitute, a harlot, one who yields herself to defilement for the sake of gain
b) any woman indulging in unlawful sexual intercourse, whether for gain or for lust
2) metaph. an idolatress
a) of "Babylon" i.e. Rome, the chief seat of idolatry
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 12
AV — harlot 8, whore 4
1Cor.6:9-11, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. "
Repentance makes the difference. Ezek.18.
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Originally Posted by sincerly
Shermana, Paul is expressing the same principles as was given in Ezekiel 18.
The Hebrew word zanah is translated
1) to commit fornication, be a harlot, play the harlot
a) (Qal)
1) to be a harlot, act as a harlot, commit fornication
2) to commit adultery
3) to be a cult prostitute
4) to be unfaithful (to God) (fig.)
b) (Pual) to play the harlot
c) (Hiphil)
1) to cause to commit adultery
2) to force into prostitution
3) to commit fornication
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 93
AV — ...harlot 36, go a whoring 19, ...whoredom 15, whore 11, commit fornication 3, whorish 3, harlot + 0802 2, commit 1, continually 1, great 1, whore's + 0802 1
In the Greek: pornos=
1) a man who prostitutes his body to another's lust for hire
2) a male prostitute
3) a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 10
AV — fornicator 5, whoremonger 5
In Greek: adulterer=moichos=1) an adulterer
2) metaph. one who is faithless toward God, ungodly
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 4
AV — adulterer 4
In Greek: Whore=pornē=1) a woman who sells her body for sexual uses
a) a prostitute, a harlot, one who yields herself to defilement for the sake of gain
b) any woman indulging in unlawful sexual intercourse, whether for gain or for lust
2) metaph. an idolatress
a) of "Babylon" i.e. Rome, the chief seat of idolatry
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count — Total: 12
AV — harlot 8, whore 4
1Cor.6:9-11, "Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: [/b]neither fornicators, [/b]nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. "
Repentance makes the difference. Ezek.18.
Many define "fornication" as any sex outside of marriage.
Jesus never says this. He uses the greek term "aselgeia" which refers to particularly obscene or shocking sexual violations of the torah .. (Incest, bestiality, temple prostitution and so on)
Another term that is important is "unlawful". It was not unlawful for folks to have sex outside of marriage back in the day.
http://www.presbycoalition.org/10%20Hobson%20FILOLOGIA-XXI-HOBSON-04.pdf
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sincerly
Well-Known Member
Since many deny GOD AS GOD and HIS teachings as "myths---along with HIM", the twistings of words and their meanings has been to satisfy one's continuing in SIN. However, there are many who refuse to see the SIN of their LUSTS.
Oryonder, Jesus says in Matt.5:32, "But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery."
Fornication= porneia=
1) illicit sexual intercourse
a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12
2) metaph. the worship of idols
a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols
Adultery=moichaō=
1) to have unlawful intercourse with another's wife, to commit adultery with
Jesus actually explains this sexual subject more deeply with this statement. Matt.5:27-28, "Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."
That "Lusting" which Jesus was speaking of here is the same which is covered by "aselgeia" .
That isn't what Jesus taught, nor was it as originally instructed.
Notice what Jesus said in Mark 10:2-12, "And the Pharisees came to him, and asked him, Is it lawful for a man to put away [his] wife? tempting him. And he answered and said unto them, What did Moses command you? And they said, Moses suffered to write a bill of divorcement, and to put [her] away. And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female. And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. And in the house his disciples asked him again of the same [matter]. And he saith unto them,
Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her. And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery."
First off .. Porneia does not mean fornication. Fornication is a modern word.
Porneia is not "any sex outside of marriage"
The word in Matt 5:32 is actually "Porneias" and it translates directly as "prostitution". http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/NTpdf/mat5.pdf
Look under the word in the translation in the link above.
From Clarke's commentary:
Matthew 5:32 But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for marital unfaithfulness, causes her to become an adulteress, and anyone who marries the divorced woman commits adultery.
Both of the sources I gave you have a heavy Christian bias but here is another Christian biases source. Definition Of PORNEIA (Serious Sexual Offense)
Porneia is not fornication and it certainly is not "any sex outside of marriage"
This link gives some historical background and does an excellent job.
In a Godward direction: Meaning and Intent: Porneia in the Apostolic Fathers
The conclusion
and
Give links for your sources if you are going to use them.
In summary .. fornication is not a good translation of the word Porneia .. and there is no condemnation of "any sex" by Jesus . He is talking about adultery .. meaning when a man puts away his wife (therby causeing her to go to another) or the wife has sex with someone who is not her husband. It was not against the Torah for a man to have sex with someone other than his wife and Jesus does not contradict this.
Jesus does seem to put a different standard on marriage than God did in the OT (referring to your passage above from Mark). The God of the OT did was not involved directly in the marriage union. Jesus seems to be claiming that he is although I think it is going a bit far to have an "oath" to God in the marriage vows based on this passage.
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sincerly
Well-Known Member
Oryonder, those definitions of mine were from the "bluebible.org" Strong's numbering(G4202) and Thayer's Lexicon.
porneia=
1) illicit sexual intercourse
a) adultery, fornication, homosexuality, lesbianism, intercourse with animals etc.
b) sexual intercourse with close relatives; Lev. 18
c) sexual intercourse with a divorced man or woman; Mk. 10:11,12
2) metaph. the worship of idols
a) of the defilement of idolatry, as incurred by eating the sacrifices offered to idols
fornication 26 (times translated)
It is from porneuō= (G4203)---
1) to prostitute one's body to the lust of another
2) to give one's self to unlawful sexual intercourse
a) to commit fornication
3) metaph. to be given to idolatry, to worship idols
a) to permit one's self to be drawn away by another into idolatry
Used/translated 8 times in the KJV.
Which is from pornē(G4204)---
1) a woman who sells her body for sexual uses
a) a prostitute, a harlot, one who yields herself to defilement for the sake of gain
b) any woman indulging in unlawful sexual intercourse, whether for gain or for lust
2) metaph. an idolatress
a) of "Babylon" i.e. Rome, the chief seat of idolatry
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count Total: 12
AV harlot 8, whore 4
Which is from pornos(G4205)=1) a man who prostitutes his body to another's lust for hire
2) a male prostitute
3) a man who indulges in unlawful sexual intercourse, a fornicator
Authorized Version (KJV) Translation Count Total: 10
AV fornicator 5, whoremonger 5
Oryounder, your site's conclusions are contrary to the words which the Holy Spirit inspired the writers to record and their meanings.
In summary .. there is condemnation of "any sex" outside of marrige by Jesus and the OT Writers. It was against the Torah for a man to have sex with someone other than his wife and Jesus did confirm that fact with "And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he (Moses) wrote you this precept." (Mark10:2-12) .
The God of the OT was involved directly in the marriage union. GOD made Eve from a rib of Adam and stated that future unions was to be man and woman and they were to be one flesh. Jesus, Who made all things (John1:3), is affirming that what GOD has "Joined together, let no man put asunder".
The denying of Jesus and the Principles/Truths given for the LOVE relationship to GOD and human relationships is still the issue of today.
Bluebible.org is obviously wrong.
Also .. you need to be careful when using dictionary definitions.
There is a difference between what a word means and colloquial language usage.
For example if you looked up the definition of "pregnant" one definition could be the phrase "with child".
This does not mean that at conception a "child" exists by any stretch of the imagination nor does the dictionary mean to intend this.
What it means is that when someone uses this word .. what this person means, or could mean is .....
Porneia .. is often translated "fornication" .. and is done so in many Bibles but this is mostly as a matter of convention.
Modern scholarship however has shown that this translation is incorrect and this is why many Bibles no longer translate Porneia as fornication.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
I hear allot of BS what had nothing to do with what i asked the Quran, Emanuel or the Trinity has nothing to do with anything there is only ONE-SINGLE VERSE in the whole Bible where Jesus(p) is refferd as Emmanuel but that One verse seems more as a interporlation for many reasons.
Again ill repeat myself what i always have to do while talking with preaching Christians nowadays. Where in the Bible does Jesus(p) say with these words: I AM GOD, WORSHIP ME, THE TRINITY EXIST, BELIEF IN A TRINITY, BELIEF GOD IS THREE.
I am asking you to use the Red-Letter bible.
The scriptures themselves are from the years 50 after Jesus(p) till 150 Years after Jesus(p) how could a person who lived with Jesus(p) write something 50/150 years latter surely you don't belief they lived 200years do you?
Do you belief i think the NWT or OT is reliable?
sincerly
Well-Known Member
Really??? Then why the quote from the Quran below your post comments???
The BS is all coming from the Quran.
Hi FOuad, Asking for specific wording supplied by you, isn't in agreement with how things are written. The way the Writer composes their message is the means the messages are given.
Which gives you a reason to reject their messages---as is seen in your last comment:
Therefore, my previous statement is still what Jesus' mission is/was.:
It is the Quran which has distorted the teachings of the Bible. Thus "denying" Jesus the mission which HE accomplished(sent by HIS FATHER)---and was promised--- from "the foundation of world". And claiming HE/Jesus was just a mortal man(as you and I); And that Jesus didn't die on the cross for the Atonement of the sins of mankind.---etc.sincerly said:
The Gospels were written between AD 50-60 just 20-30 years after the Crucifixion of Jesus. Of course, those writers were still alive and most of the "eye-witnesses" as well. Your assumptions are of the same distortions as is seem in the Quran.(which, btw, had NO EYE-WITNESSES.)
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Shermana
Heretic
Once again, as I always mention whenever John 20:28 is mentioned, it appears to in fact be a later interpolation, as Bernard Muller has pointed out at HIstorical-jesus.info.
If you disagree, please explain where the Disciples first met Jesus after his ressurection, on the Mountains in Galilee or in a Locked Room in Jerusalem. It often seems those who use John 20:28 to insist that Thomas called Jesus his god have no awareness that this ending clashes with Matthew's. We also know that Chapter 21 is widely considered to be forged and added later as an "Epilogue", so there's a major basis to this besides just the contradicting endings.
Sp apparently the ending of John directly clashes with the ending of Matthew. Why is that? Where did the Disciples first meet Jesus?
John should have ended around 20:10-18. Bernard Muller agrees.
Also, Sincerly seems to be avoiding the actual context of what Jesus is confirming in 20:28 to begin with. Is Jesus confirming that Thomas believed he was god or that he was alive again? What has Thomas "Seen" to believe that he's God? Nothing. All he has seen is him rising from the dead. That's what he is believing. That Jesus is alive. Even if the verse is authentic, Thomas could have just been saying OMG which was probably not really violating the 3rd commandment to not "Swear falsely by G-d's name", not really the "OMG" that most associate it with. By saying "OMG", Thomas was indirectly acknowledging that this person before him was in fact Jesus.
It's always fun to see how Trinitarians twist verses to strip the context away for their Trinitarian presumptions, even with their own best "proof" texts, even when those "proof texts" have a dubious basis.
If you disagree, please explain where the Disciples first met Jesus after his ressurection, on the Mountains in Galilee or in a Locked Room in Jerusalem. It often seems those who use John 20:28 to insist that Thomas called Jesus his god have no awareness that this ending clashes with Matthew's. We also know that Chapter 21 is widely considered to be forged and added later as an "Epilogue", so there's a major basis to this besides just the contradicting endings.
Sp apparently the ending of John directly clashes with the ending of Matthew. Why is that? Where did the Disciples first meet Jesus?
John should have ended around 20:10-18. Bernard Muller agrees.
Also, Sincerly seems to be avoiding the actual context of what Jesus is confirming in 20:28 to begin with. Is Jesus confirming that Thomas believed he was god or that he was alive again? What has Thomas "Seen" to believe that he's God? Nothing. All he has seen is him rising from the dead. That's what he is believing. That Jesus is alive. Even if the verse is authentic, Thomas could have just been saying OMG which was probably not really violating the 3rd commandment to not "Swear falsely by G-d's name", not really the "OMG" that most associate it with. By saying "OMG", Thomas was indirectly acknowledging that this person before him was in fact Jesus.
It's always fun to see how Trinitarians twist verses to strip the context away for their Trinitarian presumptions, even with their own best "proof" texts, even when those "proof texts" have a dubious basis.
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F0uad
Well-Known Member
Don't speak when you don't know, its not a quote from the Quran but from a Hadith and its my signature.
I don't really care i asked for these specific words so we could read it plain and simple however Jesus(p) didn't do that.
Seems to me that many of the works are not written by eye-witnesses so why should i belief it in the first place? Tell me if you are so sure about the Bible who wrote Hebrews?
No the Quran does not refer Jesus(p) as a normal human as you and me but as a Messenger/Messiah however its not that the Quran distorts the bible since it doesn't uses the bible in the first place. What does the bible say:
Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.
or:
Job 25:4-6 Who then can men be righteous before God?? How can he who is born of woman be clean? Behold, even the moon is not bright and the starts are not clean in his sight; how much less man, who is maggot, and the son of man, who is a worm!
The gospels were written between 50/150 AD i am not sure where you get the assumption that it was till 60 or 30years after the Crucifixion the dating goes back to the End of Jesus(p) on this earth the counting doesn't start on the time of the Crucifixion. John Coming from 90AD couldn't be written by a eye-witness so explain.
No Eye-witness? If you actually took time to learn and research the preservation of the Quran it is at its grass-roots already different then that of the bible. It was already canonized 15Years after Mohammed(saws) by hes companions who all accepted it and was compiled in hes live time by Abu Bakr(A companion). Mohammed(saws) had more over then 10,000 Companions when going to Mecca let alone when he settled there.
Now please answer the question i was asking all the time if there a verse in the entire bible where Jesus(p) says these words: I am God, Worship me, Belief in a trinity, God is Three?
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sincerly
Well-Known Member
Shall I say "once again"?? A contradiction is seen in your "It appears" and "In fact". Like other critics, the "interpolations" come from them. Bernard Muller's comments are those of one who has as his goal to debunk the Truths as shown by GOD in the Scriptures/writings of the NT.(The fulfillment of the OT Prophecies/instructions for a right living in relationship to the Creator GOD and one's fellow beings.)
There is no contradictions of the four Gospel writer's accounts of the "What is most surely believed by us".
How the "four writers expressed" those "Beliefs" was done in their own words and style of writing. That which was more impressive to one was given the most attention while another was impressed to focus upon another facet of the Life and teachings of Jesus. But those details only strengthen the whole picture/understanding of HIS truths---- NOT contradict--as you have claimed by your sources.
Before the crucifixion Jesus had told the Disciples He would meet with them in Galilee. NO date from the Resurrection was set. Matt,26:32; Mark 14:28
After the Resurrection, an Angel gave that message. Matt.28:7; Mark 16:7
The "Scattering" of the Disciples at the Crucifixion left some Doubts in their minds and miscomprehended because of conflicting ideas. (They were expecting Jesus to liberate Israel from the dominion/rule of the Roman Empire. Acts1:6)
Jesus, hastily, made a trip to the Father and returned the very same day arriving late that evening after meeting with two disciples on the Road to Emmaus and then meeting with the group in the "upper Room". He next (eight days later)met when Thomas was present. The third meeting was at that promised Galilee meeting. All three meetings were to strengthen/alleviate doubts and fears. and assure Peter that he wasn't cast away ----when-- he repented of his denials/and understood his impetuousness.
Those are yours and others supposed conclusions, but not as the Scriptures record.
There is NO Clash---"apparently" or otherwise. See above.
The rest of JOHN agrees with the first Chapter of John. and (3:16)
Not only Jesus, but The Son of GOD and "GOD with us". John was giving the not to hard understanding Facts and NOT "the could have beens", "probably nots", etc. of your unfounded /not contextual conclusions derived from such expressions.
Shermana
Heretic
Okay, so basically a "Nuh uh". And Bernard Muller's goal is to present accuracy of how John was compiled. I understand you may think that anyone who tries to do scholarly work may be working against "Truths as shown by GOD", but your tactics of shucking such work without any real textual basis and making up a timeline probably will not be convincing anyone.
Okay so that's more "Nuh uh". I will address the exacts in the post below.
Okay so you agree that he met at Galilee first. SO then you'd think they wouldn't be shocked at his ressurrection the next time in the Locked Room. Perhaps I should make another post showing that your timeline doesn't necessarily add up.
But Matthew implies that they all met first at Galilee, where are you drawing this conclusion? Care to provide a link or the scriptures laid out to show how this works? Apparently they were ALL in shock at the meeting in the room, and some were doubting in Galilee. From whence do you draw your time line? Show the scriptures and line them up exactly.
Trust me, many have attempted to solve this contradiction and failed. You've done a good job at saying what you think happened, now show it with the actual text.
So you can make up any time line you want to get around this.
See above to what? Your take on the events that kind of clashes with the idea that they'd be "shocked" by the time they see him again? Matthew kinda implies they all saw him at Galilee, does it not?
What does that have to do with it?
God is with us. I made an issue about the use of the word "is", apparently you didn't catch it? And I also brought up the use of Hebrew names with examples like Obadiah, which by your logic, would also be God incarnated.
Nothing you've seen has been based on any founding. You simply made up a timeline that as I said, kind of means that they'd be shocked twice in a row by his appearance. So please by all means, feel free to actually go over the text and show that they match up with your timeline or kindly admit that your own view is unfounded, thanks.
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Shermana
Heretic
Now very simply, let's look at this claim...
Sincerly wants us to believe that the Disciples would be in doubt once again at the meeting in Galilee, as if they weren't fully convinced at the meeting in the Locked Room.
Not only that, but Jesus instructs the 11 to go to Galilee straight from Mary. Why would he tell them to go there from Mary instead of telling them at the Locked Room?
Matthew 28
There they will see me. That means he will see them FIRST at Galilee. How can it not? Does he mean to say "There they will see me after I appear to them in a locked room"? I don't think so. I would think "There they will see me" means that he will first appear to them there. Why would he even have Mary tell them instead of telling them himself at the Locked Room?
If Sincerly's view is right, the Disciples apparently didn't believe him since the miraculous meeting in the Locked room if some still doubted even at the apparent "3rd appearance", and this is besides the fact that Jesus said he would see them at Galilee. If I said "I"ll see them at the store", does that mean I plan to visit their house first and then go to the park with them and THEN see them at the store? Or does it mean I'm meeting them at the store.
Only some extreme twisting and logical suspension can one reconcile the accounts of Matthew and John.
Not only that but Mark seems to clash as well. Did Jesus first appear to the 11 while dining? In your view, you said the Galilee visitation was last, but isn't the visitation while dining in the Locked room the last visit in Mark, and the dubious "long ending" of Mark at that?
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sincerly
Well-Known Member
Yes, it is your signature; You didn't acknowledge the Source. However, As I recall, a Hadith carries the same authority for the Muslims as the Quran--Right??
Right! Jesus didn't say "the specific wordings" you are demanding, but Jesus did Answer that HE is ONE with The FATHER; and the HOLY SPIRIT. Nor did Jesus deny the Apostles their acknowledgment that HE was the SON of GOD.
All the writings of the Quran were supposedly given to Muhammad by Gabriel without the presence of anyone else. Why do/should you believe those??(in the first place?)
I have no reason the believe or disbelieve who the author of Hebrews is---The Book of Hebrews is consistent with the Scriptures/Writings of the Prophets and the Laws of GOD. Those writings contradict the writings found in the Quran.
No the Quran does not refer Jesus(p) as a normal human as you and me but as a Messenger/Messiah however its not that the Quran distorts the bible since it doesn't uses the bible in the first place.[/quote]
Huh/You are joking!!!!
The next two verses say Jesus was crucified and the Following verse acknowledges the Resurrection of Jesus. vs.36 acknowledges that GOD made Jesus both LORD and Christ. Meaning: 1) he to whom a person or thing belongs, about which he has power of deciding; master, lord.
or:
FOuad, Jesus had no earthly father. Jesus was conceived in the uterus of Mary by the HOLY SPIRIT. That verse above is speaking of a human father and mother.
Jesus began HIS 3 1/2 teaching ministry/training HIS Twelve Disciples at/after HIS Baptism in AD 27 and was crucified in AD 31 All the NT writings were completed )before the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem by the Roman Army(AD 70) or
some of the writers would have acknowledged the fulfillment by Jesus of that fact/destruction.
Yes, NO eye-witnesses!!! He may have a lot of "companions", but none of them were in attendance when Mohammed received any of his material which was recorded as from Gabriel.
"These words" are not HIS words.
John6:68-71, "Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? He spake of Judas Iscariot [the son] of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve."
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