Predestination

Predestination:

The act of predestining or the condition of being predestined.

Theology.

The doctrine that God has foreordained all things, especially that God has elected certain souls to eternal salvation.

The divine decree foreordaining all souls to either salvation or damnation.

The act of God foreordaining all things gone before and to come.

Destiny; fate.

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Anybody here believe in Predestination?

I think I believe in fate but I don't call that predestination. The dictionary thinks it is though.

nope.... we choose our own paths in life.

if everything was already chosen for us then what would the point be?

wa:-do

I think each of has a certain set of talents and abilities which may guide us in a certain direction. I don't believe God preprogrammed us. We have free choice, however we may be happier doing what we are best at and what interests us.

this is a delicate subject with me. Its hard for me to talk about it, cuz its hard to understand. I believe that free will and choices are an illusion to the point where i think everything that happens happens for a reason and cannot happen any other way. however, i do not believe predestination where as an intelligent personified god preprogrammed, or wrote everything down. I believe everything happens and is destined to happen as it happens. We are able to shape our lives, but how we shape it, is how its meant to be shaped. If that makes any sense at all.

Predestiny has always been a fun concept for me. If everything in my life is already completely planned out, then I am not accountable for any of my actions, because I did not CHOSE to act; God (or some other mechanism of predestiny) chose FOR me.

This has some fun, and some scary, implications.

I could go into my sister's room and slap her right now, and it wouldn't be my fault because technically I DIDN'T DO IT! God did it, using me as the means to achieve what he wanted, which was to slap my sister.

I could blow up a building and it wouldn't be my fault.

Nothing I do is ever "wrong" because I don't have that choice between "good" and "evil". Anything I do, no matter how bad it is, can always be written off as "God's Will".

Also, predestiny conflicts with (the Christian/Muslim/Jewish) ideas of damnation. Why would God punish us for doing something that he MADE us do, and gave us no choice BUT to do. It would be like, if I had the ability to absolutely enforce my will upon another person, me planning out the life of my daughter (shuold I ever have one ). I decide "When she is 20 I shall have her murder a man in a drunken rage". And then, when she does this, I say "And now you shall be punished forever, for unable to do anything else, you did my will, and my will was wrong".

Well, Rex, let me ask you this - What if your fate is hell, to provide balance in the afterlife? You wouldn't be too happy, would you? This is the problem with predestination. The bible teaches that God loves everyone equally and would want everyone to come to heaven. But those who have sinned and aren't under the sacrifice of Jesus cannot.

Christians do not believe in predestination, but islam does. This is the major aspect from which other theological islamic problems arise, i.e. jihad. Muslims are told in the Quran to try to convert others to Islam, but also that the only way to assure yourself heaven is to kill an infidel. How can you convert the infidel if they are all dead? Islam is a contradiction in itself.

The Ocelot

Ocelot, there are differences among Christians. It is a very firm and basic Lutheran dogma that you ‎cannot come to believe in God through your own efforts, but only through God’s grace. Luther ‎and several others even thought that God already has decided who will go to heaven and who will ‎go to hell (the thesis of the double predestination).

Not believing in predestination must mean that God is not all-powerful and all-knowing. If he/she/it knows everything, then your fate is already known and decided.

Killing people of other faiths is more of a Christiam speciality. Think of the crusades. Muslims used to give conversion to Islam as an alternative. I do not remember having heard that Muslims go to heaven if they kill an infidel. That is very contrary to the spirit of the Qur'an. I refuse to believe it until you show me where it says so.

Addendum:

painted wolf said:

if everything was already chosen for us then what would the point be?

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Of course so that God could glory in his/her/its cleverness, almightyness and whateverness.

I sort of agree with Master Vigil and Runt in that I think Free Will is an illusion. However, if Quantum theory is correct, then nothing is "predestined".

Here's what I've read about the subject: Back when Einstein was alive no one could figure out what the causes were for quantum events. Einstein came up with a series of experiments that would somehow (I don't know how- I'm not that smart) force any causes that exist in quantum physics to show themselves. Only decades later was the technology available to perform these experiments- and no causes were found.

It is, of course, possible that one day we will find causes for quantum events. Still, until we do, it appears that at the most fundamental level the universe is acausal (random). That might explain what caused the Big Bang- a quantum event, which doesn't need a cause. Of course, this is all theory.

well certain things are predestioned, because of natures laws, an anvil is predestioned to fall to the ground when trown out of a car. but most things are not predestioned because of random chance, though that doesn't stop some people from being predictable

Before you are born you choose how your life will be and what tests you will go through when you are in heaven. Everyone comes from God, so people aren't preordained to be damned, or recieve eternal salvation, but everyone really comes to earth to remember God, to find God, and to know God.

We promise to God before we come, that we will forsake material pleasures in the pursuit of God, but we are made to forget all of that after we are born. The situation you are in, the parents you have, the trials, the fun, the good, the bad, the tests, you chose them all. If you have pets, you even picked your pets before you came. But you were made to forget. God does provide you with hints along the journey though.

Do you think that an all loving and merciful God would allow one of his children to stay in torment for all of eternity? Would you do that to your child? No, then why would God with all encompassing love allow one of his children to stay in torment forever, with no chance of redeeming him/herself?

Why do you think some people are born as prodigies, and others are born mentally handicapped? Just because? That' wouldn't make sense. Why would God give us only one life to get it right, and put us in such different advantageous, or disadvantageous situations in order to reach salvation?

It makes no sense. I started believing in reincarnation after I began to see how different people's situations were and how differen't people could be.

You have no choice in your current situation, but you do have free will concerning your future. You can work today to assure that your future will be different. Don't worry about these things though, just do your best to do the right thing, and try to focus on finding God. This is the best way to get the answers to your questions about predestination. I also suggest this website GodsDirectContact.org: Spiritual Discovery - Quan Yin Method

Master Vigil said:

this is a delicate subject with me. Its hard for me to talk about it, cuz its hard to understand. I believe that free will and choices are an illusion to the point where i think everything that happens happens for a reason and cannot happen any other way. however, i do not believe predestination where as an intelligent personified god preprogrammed, or wrote everything down. I believe everything happens and is destined to happen as it happens. We are able to shape our lives, but how we shape it, is how its meant to be shaped. If that makes any sense at all.

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It really doesn't. You're saying we do have free will but we don't.

anders said:

Ocelot, there are differences among Christians. It is a very firm and basic Lutheran dogma that you ‎cannot come to believe in God through your own efforts, but only through God’s grace. Luther ‎and several others even thought that God already has decided who will go to heaven and who will ‎go to hell (the thesis of the double predestination).

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Umm, I think you're thinking of Calvinism. I've never meet a Lutheran who believed in predestined salvation.


~matthew.william~