F0uad
Well-Known Member
Did you stop reading after the ''Rhythm'' explanation?
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Quran Challenge - Bring Ten invented Surahs!
- Thread starter InvestigateTruth
- Start date
Did you stop reading after the ''Rhythm'' explanation?
F0uad
Well-Known Member
No it doesn't its about a Arabic paradigm.
Ill just wait till someone wants to argue or refute the 5 Arguments that can be found on this page: :: The Inimitable Qur'an ::
Mr Spinkles
Mr
It's interesting that both the Qur'an and the Baha'i scriptures perform a large number of "impossible" feats, as subjectively judged by their supporters. And yet, neither set of scriptures does anything that would have been objectively impossible in previous centuries, such as predicting the number of sunspots on a specific day, or listing the 1 trillionth prime number, or the number of stars in our galaxy, or the age of the Earth, or even noticing the existence of microbial life and its responsibility for disease.
arthra
Baha'i
So Mr. Sprinkles..
Have you read the Baha'i Writings?
If indeed you have you'll note credit is given to scientific discovery
And among the teachings of Bahá'u'lláh is that religion must be in conformity with science and reason, so that it may influence the hearts of men. The foundation must be solid and must not consist of imitations.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 299)
Baha'u'llah encouraged the study of science and advocated universal education for the entire planet for women and men. Something that has still yet to be achieved.
You're probably right about the sunspots on a given day since it was only recently that people could used telescopes and have a coated lenses to track them..
The number of stars in the galaxy are still being counted/estimated..
and the age of the earth is still being estimated...
Yes the microbes.. that were hitherto unknown...discovered by Anton van Leeuwenhoek in 1675...cudos and frubals to Anton! There are still new microbes being discovered!
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-Peacemaker-
.45 Cal
From what I can see, this challenge is the equivalent of a rap battle. Even if Mohammed/"Gabriel" is a 7th century Eminen, some people think Marshall Mathers is overrated while others (a small delusional bunch heheheh...) think he's garbage. There's just no way to quantitatively measure how good he is. We could probably classify the cadence with which he rhymes and compare it to those of other rappers. We could probably measure the extent of his vocabulary. At the end of the day would these measures tell us just how "good" of a rapper M&M is? Not really. His music resonates with some people while others hate it.
arthra
Baha'i
I wouldn't really encourage people to compose "surihs". The issue in my view is more along the lines of what is revealed scriptures and what is say creative writing..
There was a contemporary of Prophet Muhammad that composed verses known as Musaylima and claimed they were divinely revealed...but in time, these were discarded.
So historically I think in time people come to discriminate and eventually the frauds and claimants go by the way side..
I've seen some of the works of a lot of people who claimed divine inspiration and frankly they are banal for the most part..so they will rise and fall.
There was a book of someone who claimed to channel the spirit of Kahlil Gibran.. nada ...didn't pass the test.
But I don't think we really want to encourage people to compose their own Surihs.
There was a contemporary of Prophet Muhammad that composed verses known as Musaylima and claimed they were divinely revealed...but in time, these were discarded.
So historically I think in time people come to discriminate and eventually the frauds and claimants go by the way side..
I've seen some of the works of a lot of people who claimed divine inspiration and frankly they are banal for the most part..so they will rise and fall.
There was a book of someone who claimed to channel the spirit of Kahlil Gibran.. nada ...didn't pass the test.
But I don't think we really want to encourage people to compose their own Surihs.
FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
Thats funny that god have one secret greatest name and just revealed by bahauallah,
is that one of bahaullah's miracles that he got that powerful name of god which is baha,
and we should be called with that greatest name to be saved.
But all what you have said confirm that you are absolutely wrong,because muslim aren't
replaced by the bahai faith,actually no one is interested on the bahai philosophy in the muslim world.
Came to create a new humanity!!,but it failed and it will never success to do so,
because that is a philosophy of the Abrahamic religions,we have also a philosophy among
muslims such as sufisim,but they didn't creat a new religion for being a sufisim,but the bahai,created a new religion out of philosophy.
because that is a philosophy of the Abrahamic religions,we have also a philosophy among
muslims such as sufisim,but they didn't creat a new religion for being a sufisim,but the bahai,created a new religion out of philosophy.
i did never say that Mahdi and Jesus pbuh won't come to our world shortly before the judgement day,
and even Mahdi isn't a prophet,but just an enlightened and guided one,but the only prophet whom
will come to our world after prophet Mohammed is only Jesus pbuh who will lead all of people at
that time to the straight path and according to the signes given to Mohammed pbuh we can estimate
that the retrurn of Jesus pbuh is very near.
arthra
Baha'i
Trruth,
I will let Investigate Truth reply to your remarks but did feel I should share a comment or two with you...
trruth wrote above in a note to investigate truth:
First of course you should note that the Baha'i Faith is a religion in it's own right and not a "philosophy"...this idea of yours attempts to ignore that Baha'i Faith has it's own prayers, Holy Places, Calendar with special days for Fasting and pilgrimage rites and so on.
Suggesting that "no one is interested" also ignores the constant suppression of the Baha'is Faith in the land of it's birth, i.e., Iran. Today the government of Iran which claims to be a Muslim revolution and guided by it's ecclesiastics seeks to imprison Baha'is and deprive them of their rights to free choice of religion. If no one is interested in Baha'i Faith why so much effort is expended to "eliminate" it?
All of the early adherents of the Baha'i Faith up until around 1890 were Muslims so indeed there has been an "interest" in the Baha'i Faith one could say and it continues in spite of the continued suppression of freedom.
If you are interested in the historical background of the suppression of Baha'is in Iran see:
The Bahá
Baha'is don't sponsor any sites that attack Islam rather we accept Porphet Muhmmad and the Qur'an as well as the previous Prophets and Messengers. The desire to have good relations with Muslims should be apparent....Baha'is particpate in many inter-faith gatherings with our Muslim friends.
"The Bahá'í Faith confesses the unity of God and the justice of the divine Essence. It recognizes that Almighty God is an exalted, unknowable and concealed entity, sanctified from ascent and descent, from egress and regress, and from assuming a physical body. The Bahá'í Faith, which professes the existence of the invisible God, the One, the Single, the Eternal, the Peerless, bows before the loftiness of His Threshold, believes in all divine Manifestations, considers all the Prophets from Adam to the Seal of the Prophets+F681 as true divine Messengers Who are the Manifestations of Truth in the world of creation, accepts Their Books as having come from God, believes in the continuation of the divine outpourings, emphatically believes in reward and punishment and, uniquely among existing revealed religions outside Islam, accepts the Prophet Muhammad as a true Prophet and the Qur'án as the Word of God."
[F681. Muhammad.]
~ The Universal House of Justice, Messages 1963 to 1986, p. 595
I will let Investigate Truth reply to your remarks but did feel I should share a comment or two with you...
trruth wrote above in a note to investigate truth:
"But all what you have said confirm that you are absolutely wrong,because muslim aren't ......replaced by the bahai faith,actually no one is interested on the bahai philosophy in the muslim world."
trruth... You seem to want to set yourself up as a spokesman for the Muslim world when you wrote above:
"..no one is interested on the bahai philosophy in the muslim world."
trruth... You seem to want to set yourself up as a spokesman for the Muslim world when you wrote above:
"..no one is interested on the bahai philosophy in the muslim world."
First of course you should note that the Baha'i Faith is a religion in it's own right and not a "philosophy"...this idea of yours attempts to ignore that Baha'i Faith has it's own prayers, Holy Places, Calendar with special days for Fasting and pilgrimage rites and so on.
Suggesting that "no one is interested" also ignores the constant suppression of the Baha'is Faith in the land of it's birth, i.e., Iran. Today the government of Iran which claims to be a Muslim revolution and guided by it's ecclesiastics seeks to imprison Baha'is and deprive them of their rights to free choice of religion. If no one is interested in Baha'i Faith why so much effort is expended to "eliminate" it?
All of the early adherents of the Baha'i Faith up until around 1890 were Muslims so indeed there has been an "interest" in the Baha'i Faith one could say and it continues in spite of the continued suppression of freedom.
If you are interested in the historical background of the suppression of Baha'is in Iran see:
The Bahá
Baha'is don't sponsor any sites that attack Islam rather we accept Porphet Muhmmad and the Qur'an as well as the previous Prophets and Messengers. The desire to have good relations with Muslims should be apparent....Baha'is particpate in many inter-faith gatherings with our Muslim friends.
"The Bahá'í Faith confesses the unity of God and the justice of the divine Essence. It recognizes that Almighty God is an exalted, unknowable and concealed entity, sanctified from ascent and descent, from egress and regress, and from assuming a physical body. The Bahá'í Faith, which professes the existence of the invisible God, the One, the Single, the Eternal, the Peerless, bows before the loftiness of His Threshold, believes in all divine Manifestations, considers all the Prophets from Adam to the Seal of the Prophets+F681 as true divine Messengers Who are the Manifestations of Truth in the world of creation, accepts Their Books as having come from God, believes in the continuation of the divine outpourings, emphatically believes in reward and punishment and, uniquely among existing revealed religions outside Islam, accepts the Prophet Muhammad as a true Prophet and the Qur'án as the Word of God."
[F681. Muhammad.]
~ The Universal House of Justice, Messages 1963 to 1986, p. 595
Mr Spinkles
Mr
I have only read the Baha'i writings presented on this forum. Giving credit to science is admirable, but not impossible, which is to say that it does not require divine revelation.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
The Miracle of Baha'u'llah is that He brought a new revelation, which is irrefutable and keeps growing.
Still no one has addressed the main point of this thread, to compare the Surrihs and Books revealed in Baha'i Faith with that of Quran, based on the style of writing, or spiritual teaching, or whatever way you want to compare and see it for yourself, Here is a Book like it!
For example compare the Kitabi Qayyum aL-Asma with Quran. See any difference.
Offcource, you have to read it first!
Well, the verse of Quran, and recorded tradition of Muhammad says so.
Here is another saying of Muhammad, which Sunni Moslems accept it as well:
"If my Ummah stands firm on the true path, it will live for a day [1000 years]."
"Are We wearied out with the first creation? Yet are they in doubt with regard to a new creation!"
Qurán 50:15.
Qurán 50:15.
Well, there are recorded Islamic traditions, that Mehdi is a Messenger like Muhammad and others, and He will reveal new Book:
"In the Bihár it is recorded: In our Qáim there shall be four signs from four Prophets, Moses, Jesus, Joseph, and Muḥammad. The sign from Moses, is fear and expectation; from Jesus, that which was spoken of Him; from Joseph, imprisonment and dissimulation; from Muḥammad, the revelation of a Book similar to the Qurán. Notwithstanding such a conclusive tradition, which in such unmistakable language hath foreshadowed the happenings of the present day, none hath been found to heed its prophecy, and methinks none will do so in the future, except him whom thy Lord willeth. God indeed shall make whom He will to hearken, but We shall not make those who are in their graves to hearken."
Book of Iqan, Baha'u'llah
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FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
4Say: From My laws the sweet-smelling savour of My garment can be smelled, and by their aid the standards of Victory will be planted upon the highest peaks. The Tongue of My power hath, from the heaven of My omnipotent glory, addressed to My creation these words: "Observe My commandments, for the love of My beauty." Happy is the lover that hath inhaled the divine fragrance of his Best-Beloved from these words, laden with the perfume of a grace which no tongue can describe. By My life! He who hath drunk the choice wine of fairness from the hands of My bountiful favour will circle around My commandments that shine above the Dayspring of My creation.
i tried to understand what is the merit of those statements from your holy book,
i did understand nothing,even in the arabic language.
Please explain what is the meaning "tafseer" of those statements.
What is the relation between god laws and the smelling of garment.....till the end of the paragraph
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Mr Spinkles
Mr
I invite readers to read my post and then read your link, The Inimitable Qur'an, and judge for themselves.You cant be serious
arthra
Baha'i
Thanks for your quote. I think you can find a hint of the meaning in the following if you look at the bold print below:
Here is the verse:
Say: From My laws the sweet-smelling savour of
My garment can be smelled,
and by their aid the
standards of Victory will be planted upon the highest
peaks. The Tongue of My power hath, from the heaven
of My omnipotent glory, addressed to My creation
these words: "Observe My commandments, for the love
of My beauty."
Happy is the lover that hath inhaled the
divine fragrance of his Best-Beloved from these words,
laden with the perfume of a grace which no tongue can
describe.
By My life! He who hath drunk the choice
wine of fairness from the hands of My bountiful favour
will circle around My commandments that shine above
the Dayspring of My creation.
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 20)
The langugae is symbolic...So for Baha'is we follow His laws for love of His Beauty...(Baha'u'llah is also called the Blessed Beauty)
just as a son would follow the Will of his father because of his love and connection with him.
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FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
God bless you and guide you to the straight path.
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
The explaination that Art is giving is good. The "Garment" symbolically represents the prophethood, and the revealer of the Word of God.
It comes from the story of Joseph the Prophet. The Bab has already revealed the meaning of it in Qayyumu'l-Asma.
When the Garment of Joseph was placed on the eyes, it healed them. Meaning, the word of God gives spiritual healing, and opens the eye, so the truth can be seen.
Here is a tafseer:
"On Joseph's garment:
"Say: From My laws the sweet-smelling savour of My garment can be smelled. . . "
(Aqdas, paragraph 4)
As the House of Justice has pointed out in the Note for this paragraph (Aqdas, p. 165), the Writings state that the fragrant garment is a metaphor for recognition of the Manifestation. See how clearly this matches the description in the New Testament, and unseals the metaphor being presented in the Gospel:(Aqdas, paragraph 4)
"And when the men of that place recognized Him, they sent out into all that surrounding region, brought to Him all who were sick; and begged Him that they might only touch the hem of His garment. And as many as touched it were made perfectly well." (Matthew 14:35)
"And behold, a woman who had a flow of blood fo twelve years came from behind and touched the hem of His garment; for she said to herself, 'If only I may touch His garment, I shall be made well.' But Jesus turned around, and when He saw her He said, 'Be of good cheer, daughter; your faith has made you well.'" (Matthew 9:20)
In the Old Testament history, the metaphor of the garment of the Prophet protecting the people from drowning, and enabling them to walk on dry land to the far shore, is found:
"Now Elijah took his mantle, rolled it up, and struck the water; and it was divided this way and that, so that the two of them crossed over on dry ground." (II Kings 2:8)
As Bahá'u'lláh says in the Seven Valleys, p. 9, the knower is "dry in the sea."
Here, the Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh is foreshadowed in prophecy:
"I watched till thrones were put in place, and the Ancient of Days was seated; His garment was white as snow, and the hair of His head was like pure wool.... Then to Him was given dominion and glory and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and His kingdom the one which shall not be destroyed." (Daniel 7:9)
Christians understand the following verse to mean that Jesus merely renewing the Jewish Revelation would not have been adequate. Both Revelations are spoken of as "garments":
"No one puts a piece of unshrunk cloth on an old garment; for the patch pulls away from the garment, and the tear is made worse." (Jesus Christ, Gospel of Matthew 9:16)
It is possible that as early as the first night of this Dispensation, in the opening verses of the Qayyumu'l-Asma, the Báb may have unsealed this metaphor for Mullá Husayn. It says in the Súrih of Joseph (and in the story of Joseph in the Book of Genesis) that when the brothers of Joseph entered His presence they did not recognize Him; later they recognized Him, meaning that men do not at first recognize the Manifestation, and later they do. When the brothers of Joseph returned to Egypt to tell their father Jacob that Joseph was alive, they had brought His shirt and cast it on Jacob's face. He recognized the scent of Joseph, again a symbol for recognition of the Manifestation. This verse (Qur'an 12:93) is the origin of this metaphor in the Aqdas. It is also interesting that Jacob "remembers" the scent of Joseph, and the "remembrance" of God, in the sense of the Mashriqu'l-Adkar, the Dawning-Place of the Remembrance of God, is related to this."
Qayyúm al-asmá: Faculty notes
InvestigateTruth
Well-Known Member
Here is another Surrih like it. Revealed by the Bab in His Book, Qayyum al-Asma' Sura 93: Chapter of the Bees:
"1. IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MERCIFUL, THE COMPASSIONATE
2. GO, TAKE THIS SHIRT AND DO YOU CAST IT ON MY FATHER'S FACE, AND HE SHALL RECOVER HIS SIGHT; THEN BRING ME YOUR FAMILY ALL TOGETHER.
3. KAF HA' 'AYN
4. Indeed, WE REVEALED UNTO THE BEES, SAYING: "TAKE FROM THE MOUNTAINS citadels-the abode for affirming the sanctity of God-the sign of this luminous one, AND OF TREES, places for affirming that there is no god but God the sign of this Easterner AND OF WHAT THEY ARE BUILDING in the path of affirming the unity of God the threadbare garment of this Westerner belonging to God, the Exalted. And He is God, Witness over all things.[1]
5. THEN EAT OF ALL MANNER OF divine allusions MADE SMOOTH in the path of the Remembrance, this Gate. THERE COMES FORTH FROM THEIR BELLIES the water of the elixir which is one in terms of its blessings, although it is OF DIVERSE HUES WHEREIN IS HEALING FOR believers. Verily God is Powerful over all things.
6. God is the creator of everything through His power. And God, in very truth, is Apprised of everything which men do.
7. O believers! Fear God concerning this most great word protected in the divine fire. Indeed he is, in very truth, accounted by God the Exalted as a witness.
8. O people of the veils! Hearken to the call of God from the tongue of the most great Remembrance. VERILY, VERILY I AM GOD. THERE IS NO GOD BUT HIM! Indeed, the likeness of the Remembrance is as gold softened in fire which flows in rivulets to all the hidden places by the will of God, the Exalted. And he is God-Mighty, Ancient.
9. O people of the Throne! Hearken to my call from the precincts of the tomb from the tongue of this Tree that grows on the exalted Sinai, and which is covered with golden holy leaves: VERILY, VERILY I AM GOD, THERE IS NO GOD BUT HIM! There is no soul who has suffered anything in the path of the Remembrance, whether through warfare or loss of wealth, but that we have written down for him the Gardens of Eden and Ridwan in truth. Verily God is Powerful over all things.
10. Indeed, we have power to move the earth in this HOUR by the order of the Remembrance, and could, in truth, hold it aloft by means of the supplication from himself. Otherwise, the earth with its people would, in very truth, burn completely. And He is God, Powerful over all things.
11. And verily GOD HAS PREFERRED SOME OF YOU OVER OTHERS with knowledge of the Remembrance. WHAT, AND DO YOU DENY GOD'S BLESSING by lying? Indeed he is the truth from God which, in very truth, is now fulfilled."
You can read the rest of the Surrih here:
Qayyum al-Asma' Sura 93: Chapter of the Bees
"...the people of the Qur’án disdainfully observe, ‘We are unable to comprehend the eloquence of the verses in the Bayán, how can we regard it as a testimony?’ Whoever uttereth such words, say unto him, ‘O thou untutored one! By what proof hast thou embraced the Religion of Islám? Is it the Prophet on whom thou hast never set eyes? Is it the miracles which thou hast never witnessed? If thou hast accepted Islám unwittingly, wherefore hast thou done so? But if thou hast embraced the Faith by recognizing the Qur’án as the testimony, because thou hast heard the learned and the faithful express their powerlessness before it, or if thou hast, upon hearing the divine verses and by virtue of thy spontaneous love for the True Word of God, responded in a spirit of utter humility and lowliness—a spirit which is one of the mightiest signs of true love and understanding—then such proofs have been and will ever be regarded as sound.’ "
The Bab, The Seven Proofs
"1. IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MERCIFUL, THE COMPASSIONATE
2. GO, TAKE THIS SHIRT AND DO YOU CAST IT ON MY FATHER'S FACE, AND HE SHALL RECOVER HIS SIGHT; THEN BRING ME YOUR FAMILY ALL TOGETHER.
3. KAF HA' 'AYN
4. Indeed, WE REVEALED UNTO THE BEES, SAYING: "TAKE FROM THE MOUNTAINS citadels-the abode for affirming the sanctity of God-the sign of this luminous one, AND OF TREES, places for affirming that there is no god but God the sign of this Easterner AND OF WHAT THEY ARE BUILDING in the path of affirming the unity of God the threadbare garment of this Westerner belonging to God, the Exalted. And He is God, Witness over all things.[1]
5. THEN EAT OF ALL MANNER OF divine allusions MADE SMOOTH in the path of the Remembrance, this Gate. THERE COMES FORTH FROM THEIR BELLIES the water of the elixir which is one in terms of its blessings, although it is OF DIVERSE HUES WHEREIN IS HEALING FOR believers. Verily God is Powerful over all things.
6. God is the creator of everything through His power. And God, in very truth, is Apprised of everything which men do.
7. O believers! Fear God concerning this most great word protected in the divine fire. Indeed he is, in very truth, accounted by God the Exalted as a witness.
8. O people of the veils! Hearken to the call of God from the tongue of the most great Remembrance. VERILY, VERILY I AM GOD. THERE IS NO GOD BUT HIM! Indeed, the likeness of the Remembrance is as gold softened in fire which flows in rivulets to all the hidden places by the will of God, the Exalted. And he is God-Mighty, Ancient.
9. O people of the Throne! Hearken to my call from the precincts of the tomb from the tongue of this Tree that grows on the exalted Sinai, and which is covered with golden holy leaves: VERILY, VERILY I AM GOD, THERE IS NO GOD BUT HIM! There is no soul who has suffered anything in the path of the Remembrance, whether through warfare or loss of wealth, but that we have written down for him the Gardens of Eden and Ridwan in truth. Verily God is Powerful over all things.
10. Indeed, we have power to move the earth in this HOUR by the order of the Remembrance, and could, in truth, hold it aloft by means of the supplication from himself. Otherwise, the earth with its people would, in very truth, burn completely. And He is God, Powerful over all things.
11. And verily GOD HAS PREFERRED SOME OF YOU OVER OTHERS with knowledge of the Remembrance. WHAT, AND DO YOU DENY GOD'S BLESSING by lying? Indeed he is the truth from God which, in very truth, is now fulfilled."
You can read the rest of the Surrih here:
Qayyum al-Asma' Sura 93: Chapter of the Bees
"...the people of the Qur’án disdainfully observe, ‘We are unable to comprehend the eloquence of the verses in the Bayán, how can we regard it as a testimony?’ Whoever uttereth such words, say unto him, ‘O thou untutored one! By what proof hast thou embraced the Religion of Islám? Is it the Prophet on whom thou hast never set eyes? Is it the miracles which thou hast never witnessed? If thou hast accepted Islám unwittingly, wherefore hast thou done so? But if thou hast embraced the Faith by recognizing the Qur’án as the testimony, because thou hast heard the learned and the faithful express their powerlessness before it, or if thou hast, upon hearing the divine verses and by virtue of thy spontaneous love for the True Word of God, responded in a spirit of utter humility and lowliness—a spirit which is one of the mightiest signs of true love and understanding—then such proofs have been and will ever be regarded as sound.’ "
The Bab, The Seven Proofs
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FearGod
Freedom Of Mind
"On Joseph's garment:
"Say: From My laws the sweet-smelling savour of My garment can be smelled. . . "
(Aqdas, paragraph 4)
My laws : would you please elaborate laws of whom,is it god's law(Aqdas, paragraph 4)
My garment :is it god's garment or joseph's garment.
and how you connect god's law with his garment,even if symbolic.
you just made a story out of the garment and did explain nothing.
F0uad
Well-Known Member
Being ignorant and acting childish doesn't help you trust me i tried it when i was a child. Your message was about that the Challenge is for muslims by muslims yet the Challenge was tried to be refuted by many Christians and Non-Muslims also the Challenge was directed to ''Pagans and unbelievers'' in the time of the Prophet(saws). You didn't even read the 5 Major Arguments yet you think your posts works, the 5Arguments are not Islamic based.
Also you confused Islam with Arabic what seems really silly so until you have something to say what refutes or rebuttals the Arguments please keep silent since you have nothing.