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How Christian fundamentalists plan to teach genocide to schoolchildren

Me Myself

Back to my username
At what point do we start taking talk of genocide seriously? How would we feel about a nonreligious group that instructs its students that if they should ever receive an order to commit genocide, they should fulfill it to the letter?

And finally, when does a religious group qualify as a "hate group"?


that last part I wanted to re-post here, because honestly the answers should be obvious.

This kind of fundamentalist bull should disgust people. Anyone that teaches to kids what they are teaching them truly diserves to be eaten by the Earth.

Not tortured eternaly, mind you. Their enemies would have greater pity on them that the pity they say their enemies diserve, so they are lucky most of us wont judge by the same measure.
 

Hope

Princesinha
I think it all depends on how one teaches the material to children. I was taught the same story as a child, and never once did it enter my mind that God wanted me, or any Christian, to go commit genocide. Nothing I learned in the Bible as a child harmed me or made me want to become violent. On the contrary, I'm thankful for the strong moral foundation the Bible gave me at a young age.

As long as you teach difficult passages, such as the one about the Amalakites, in proper context and in light of Scripture as a whole, I don't believe there's any danger children are going to be adversely affected by them. Hopefully, even if the teaching material itself is not adequate in explaining the story of Saul and the Amalakites, any good, sensible, caring teacher would elaborate on it in such a way that the children are capable of understanding its deeper meaning.

The CEF does a lot of good work, and I'm quite sure, as the president stated, their goal is not to promote genocide.
 

idav

Being
Premium Member
When I learned the flood story as a child I didn't see anything wrong with it. They portrayed God getting rid of all the bad stuff on the earth and starting fresh especially since god saved all the animals. It didn't really occur to me till I was older that it could be a bad thing when considering all the innocent babies and animals that died along with the wicked. IMO the flood story is best as just a child story to give someone the gist of right and not something that should be taken literally by adults.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I am not a fundamentalist, but the flood story has been around for thousands of years- before Judaism and way before Christianity. In fact, I believe that more than one culture told this story. It is probably a legend or a fable and/or symbolic. I never once thought of it as genocide- no one I ever knew thought of it as genocide. Up until Abraham, I believe, the Bible was written from oral legends passed on by word of mouth. There are enough similar stories in other cultures to maybe support that idea.

As for the Amalekites, there are stories in the Bible that children should not read, I agree. That is one of them- at least until they can understand that sort of thing. There are plenty of really lovely things in the Bible they could read- Ruth, Psalms, Proverbs, etc. from the OT.
I don't see things like that as God's doing but as men who judged their victories as God's doing and used God's word as an excuse- same as they do nowadays. The Bible was inspired by God, but it was written by men. Don't a lot of people, including myself, say our successes are because of God- and maybe our successes are because of God- but sometimes we win just because we win. I am not saying anything for sure, because I don't truly know and never will know. And also, when we lose or have bad situations, we blame God or we think we did something wrong- even if it had nothing to do with that.

Do any of you really believe that human nature has changed in 3,000 or so years? I don't, people are people, times change but people really don't.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I am still not sure what place this kind of thing has in school rather one is for it or against it.

I think there's a very real agenda in the evangelicals wanting to teach this.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
I am still not sure what place this kind of thing has in school rather one is for it or against it.

I think there's a very real agenda in the evangelicals wanting to teach this.

Bible teaching should not be taught in public school. They should leave Bible teaching to parents and Sunday School. Even as a Christian, I believe that.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
I am starting to agree with that hard truth myself now that I'm getting over the idealisms of my youth.

We make social progress, but does core human nature really change?
 

InChrist

Free4ever
I do not automatically believe anything from a source like the Guardian. They have a reputation for bias reporting, even outright lies, especially against Israel. This writer, Katherine Steward, seems to display extreme bias and slanted stories against Christians. No true follower of Jesus Christ would be teaching or promoting any kind of genocide as the president of CEF has stated. The gospel, which is the focus of the CEF organization, is the message of God's love through Christ for all people.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
This writer, Katherine Steward, seems to display extreme bias and slanted stories against Christians. No true follower of Jesus Christ would be teaching or promoting any kind of genocide as the president of CEF has stated. The gospel, which is the focus of the CEF organization, is the message of God's love through Christ for all people.
So, your operating premise is that everyone who promotes and teaches Christianity is, by default, incapable of promoting any kind of genocide, and that anyone who accuses such people of doing so is automatically suspect.       Not that you're biased or anything. :rolleyes:

If you note, Ms Stewart pretty much explains herself in her reply to Reese Kauffman, President of CEF, when he tried to clarify the lesson.


"Katherine Stewart replies:
Though I welcome Mr Kauffman's comments, I regret to note that he seems to be unfamiliar with his group's teaching materials. Nowhere in the lesson plan on the Amalekites does the CEF mention the "New Covenant" and its prohibition on genocide. Mr Kauffman claims the CEF "would never teach children that God would instruct them, or anyone today, to commit genocide". And yet the CEF's lesson plan on the Amalekites tells children that God wanted Saul "to go and completely destroy the Amalekites – people, animals, every living thing". It also repeatedly tells children that the Amalekites deserved punishment for their "sinful unbelief".
To be precise, the thrust of the CEF's lesson is to teach obedience – that if God tells you to kill unbelievers, or do anything else for that matter, you must do exactly as he says. "King Saul should have been willing to seek God for strength to obey completely," the lesson plan on the Amalekites reads, and in three separate places it instructs teachers, "Have children shout 'God will help you obey!'"
There are many ways to teach the Christian faith to young children, many of which do not involve teaching obedience through the tale of the genocide of the Amalekites. Readers of the Guardian and parents of American school children are entitled to know which variety of the Christian religion the CEF is promoting in its public school clubs."
source


So I believe Stewart hit the nail on the head. In essence, one of the the CEF messages comes down to:
God always does good
God visited genocide upon the Amalekites
_____________________________________
Visiting genocide is a good thing
What is particularly galling about this is that preachers often have no trouble interpreting scripture as they choose and telling their parishioners what god wants and expects. So all we need are children growing up with "obey god" tucked back in the recesses of their mind and some knuckle-headed preacher coming along and telling people about the marching orders he's just received from god. The brain-addled follower may well start thinking
"Hey, if something like genocide was okey-dokey with god back in who-knows-when, and he now wants us to get rid of all the X people, Why not?"

And all that's left to do now is "Have children shout 'God will help you obey!'" :facepalm:



On the other hand. :D The Amalekite genocide story does point up god's lack of morals.
Of course, if anyone wants to defend genocide or just "put[ting] to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys,'"* be my guest. I'm listening.

* NIV.
 

Rainbow Mage

Lib Democrat/Agnostic/Epicurean-ish/Buddhist-ish
Yes to the above poster. I think its clear what the agenda is behind these lessons.

If anyone here has seen Jesus Camp, this is basically the same thing on a much larger scale.

They will be training little evangelical soldiers off to take care of the opposition.

Why our government doesn't step in remains a mystery to me.
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
With all respect to the Christians and there scriptures i think explaining the verses about Lot(p) and hes daughters is much harder..
 

Rocky S

Christian Goth
How Christian fundamentalists plan to teach genocide to schoolchildren.

In the interests of balance, here is the reply from the President of the Child Evangelism Fellowship.

First of all I never heard of Katherine Stewart or the Good news club. And no offence to Stewart, but this is seems to be another stab at Christianity from someone who does not know what they are talking about. Though I can see why she has this view especially the way the Good News Club responded, they were off a little as well. The scripture from 1st sam. 15:3 that was brought up is a very misunderstood scripture or the reason rather for it. I also saw another comment on this thread about flood of Noah and yes both incidents are related and other Places in the bible were God gave this instruction. The biblical explanation is this: And this may seem a bit out there to non-Christians for I have been accused of giving "overtly christian responses" well first of all here is the Good News Club reply Quote:"The Amalekites had heard about Israel's true and living God many years before, but they refused to believe in him. The Amalekites refused to believe in God and God had promised punishment" Not so, that is not the reason. Now from a christian perspective of course we believe in a being call Satan. And before he fell and rebelled against God certain angels threw in their lot with him. In Gen 3 after Adam and eve sinned there was given a Prophecy concerning the coming messiah, and that this messiah would come from the pure Ademite Stock, then later from Abraham and the Patriarchs. Satan knew about this. Before Noah's flood the fallen angels who followed Satan Came down and produce offspring with certain tribes or people on the earth. And produced a race of people called the Nephilim(Giants). This was a strategic infiltration to stop this prophecy by corrupting the bloodline and stopping it, and to corrupt the human race.. This was the main purpose of the flood to do away of the nephilim(giants) on the earth, babies and all. And God saved the bloodline through Noah. Who was like Abraham's great great grandfather. But, it happened again. That is Why God told Abraham, Moses,Joshua, David and Saul, to kill everyone in the places that they overtook or fought against, They were Nephilim including the Amalekites. So the reason was to do away with the nephilim and protect the blood line, the Jewish bloodline or the pure Ademite stock. So the prophecies concerning the messiah(Jesus) would be fulfilled. Christianity does not teach genocide to kids, there was a reason, a specific reason for it. I hope this is clear especially for Christians who have wondered this, like I did......
 

MartyrX

Member
This is incredibly disturbing and it's exactly what the fundamentalist want. This reminds me of the Jesus Camp people and they need to be stopped.
 

Skwim

Veteran Member
Rocky S said:
And no offence to Stewart, but this is seems to be another stab at Christianity from someone who does not know what they are talking about.
Why? According to the material she cited she hasn't said anything that isn't supported by it. So, unless you can point to specific examples that illustrate such a lack of knowledge, you just seem to be shootin' ad homs.
Christianity does not teach genocide to kids,
Not Christianity, but Christians. Certain modern day Christians.
there was a reason, a specific reason for it.
No argument here, just a question of a justifiable reason, which I don't see.
 

Bob Dixon

>implying
With all respect to the Christians and there scriptures i think explaining the verses about Lot(p) and hes daughters is much harder..

It's not harder at all. In fact, it's easier. The Bible provides its own explanation on those, only a small amount of analysis is needed.
 

Prophet

breaking the statutes of my local municipality
First of all I never heard of Katherine Stewart or the Good news club. And no offence to Stewart, but this is seems to be another stab at Christianity from someone who does not know what they are talking about. Though I can see why she has this view especially the way the Good News Club responded, they were off a little as well. The scripture from 1st sam. 15:3 that was brought up is a very misunderstood scripture or the reason rather for it. I also saw another comment on this thread about flood of Noah and yes both incidents are related and other Places in the bible were God gave this instruction. The biblical explanation is this: And this may seem a bit out there to non-Christians for I have been accused of giving "overtly christian responses" well first of all here is the Good News Club reply Quote:"The Amalekites had heard about Israel's true and living God many years before, but they refused to believe in him. The Amalekites refused to believe in God and God had promised punishment" Not so, that is not the reason. Now from a christian perspective of course we believe in a being call Satan. And before he fell and rebelled against God certain angels threw in their lot with him. In Gen 3 after Adam and eve sinned there was given a Prophecy concerning the coming messiah, and that this messiah would come from the pure Ademite Stock, then later from Abraham and the Patriarchs. Satan knew about this. Before Noah's flood the fallen angels who followed Satan Came down and produce offspring with certain tribes or people on the earth. And produced a race of people called the Nephilim(Giants). This was a strategic infiltration to stop this prophecy by corrupting the bloodline and stopping it, and to corrupt the human race.. This was the main purpose of the flood to do away of the nephilim(giants) on the earth, babies and all. And God saved the bloodline through Noah. Who was like Abraham's great great grandfather. But, it happened again. That is Why God told Abraham, Moses,Joshua, David and Saul, to kill everyone in the places that they overtook or fought against, They were Nephilim including the Amalekites. So the reason was to do away with the nephilim and protect the blood line, the Jewish bloodline or the pure Ademite stock. So the prophecies concerning the messiah(Jesus) would be fulfilled. Christianity does not teach genocide to kids, there was a reason, a specific reason for it. I hope this is clear especially for Christians who have wondered this, like I did......

So, God directly causes natural disasters? Natural disasters have a divine purpose?

I disagree.
 
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