Jesus Lived as a Jew

wmam · Dec 16, 2005

angellous_evangellous said:
Christians believe that Jesus fulfilled the law

Merriam-Webster has it as..........
fulfill or fulfil \ful-"fil\ vb fulfilled; fulfilling 1 : to put into effect 2 : to bring to an end 3 : satisfy  fulfillment n
(c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.

I don't take it at the second understanding but rather the first where it is said to have been enacted. This means the same as YAHshua said Himself when He stated.....

For ease of understanding, I have chosen to use the KJV for quotes.......

Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

He came to do His Fathers commands. Not destroy them.

Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Heaven and earth is still here so .....? Not all has been done/fulfilled yet.

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

And just where in this does one ever get that we are not to do the Law? Beats me.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

The word righteousness means doing the Law so I say we need to get busy.

angellous_evangellous said:
We don't need to observe the law because Jesus observes it for us.

Where in the Scriptures is this stated? It is said that He died for our sins, not for the Law.

angellous_evangellous said:
This doesn't mean that we don't care about morality or sin. On the contrary, we have a long tradition of living as pure lives as we can in the name of Jesus.

Ummmmmm............ If we are not to follow the Law anymore, and being that breaking the Law is defined as being sin, and if it is true that the Anointed is keeping the Law for us, (Which to me is false) Why would we need to care? long tradition? ..........

Mar 7:8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mar 7:9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
2Th 3:6 Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
1Pe 1:18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

I'll try to steer clear of any traditions of man.

angellous_evangellous said:
In fulfilling the law, Jesus gave to us a new law that fulfills all the old requirements: love God and love our fellow human beings. That is the law that we follow now...

That is not new.......

Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
Lev 19:18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.

I am not trying to cause trouble here but I just don't get it. I just don't understand where some of this is coming from. How can we not understand something so plain and simple? You know it is just that simple.

There is no such thing as a New Testament...... Oh the Blasphemy you say.......

No, its true.

Now if one wanted to say New Covenant then we would be correct. Just remember that a New Covenant in no way deletes, or does away with, the Old Covenant. It just adds to it. It added a way for gentiles to be a part of the Old Covenant so to speak. YAHshua is the bridge that allows the gentiles to cross over into the promise. He also taught, in a way reminded, His people in how to better understand the Old Covenant. Also to show where man had added to and taken away from His Fathers Truth.

testament \"tes-t-mnt\ n 1 cap : either of two main divisions of the Bible 2 : evidence, witness 3 : credo 4 : the legal instructions for the disposition of one's property after death : will  testamentary \'tes-t-"men-t-rÈ\ adj

......... Or ...........

covenant \"k-v-nnt\ n : a formal binding agreement : compact  covenant \-nnt, -'nant\ vb

(c)2000 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated. All rights reserved.
I'll stick to binding agreement here.

All this was never mean to be hard.......... Its just that simple.

jewscout · Dec 16, 2005

wmam said:
remember that a New Covenant in no way deletes, or does away with, the Old Covenant. It just adds to it.

then by the word of G-d it is INVALID
Deut. 13:1
All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

wmam · Dec 16, 2005

jewscout said:
then by the word of G-d it is INVALID
Deut. 13:1
All this word which I command you, that shall ye observe to do; thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Key word here is "thou" meaning you, me or anyone else, other than Him, or those sent by Him.

So when in Noah's time when YAH allowed man to start eating meat instead of just the grains of the field that in turn some how made it invalid? I think not.

jewscout · Dec 16, 2005

wmam said:
Key word here is "thou" meaning you, me or anyone else, other than Him, or those sent by Him.

So when in Noah's time when YAH allowed man to start eating meat instead of just the grains of the field that in turn some how made it invalid? I think not.

what you are confusing here is the noahidic laws w/ the Torah, which was given as an everlasting covenant between G-d and the Nation of Israel
if a Gentile wants to follow G-d's commandments, then by Jewish standards, all that is required of him is to obey the Noahidic Code and that's it.
And G-d says that if a man comes and says that they should change the Torah in anyway that they are a false prophet.
to have such a change as was pushed by Paul falls into this category.

EDIT: wmam did you read the article i linked? it should shine some light on what i am talking about in regards to the differences in the two faiths and why they constitute 2 seperate religions

wmam · Dec 16, 2005

jewscout said:
what you are confusing here is the noahidic laws w/ the Torah, which was given as an everlasting covenant between G-d and the Nation of Israel
if a Gentile wants to follow G-d's commandments, then by Jewish standards, all that is required of him is to obey the Noahidic Code and that's it.
And G-d says that if a man comes and says that they should change the Torah in anyway that they are a false prophet.
to have such a change as was pushed by Paul falls into this category.

EDIT: wmam did you read the article i linked? it should shine some light on what i am talking about in regards to the differences in the two faiths and why they constitute 2 seperate religions

I'm not confusing anything. I see no where in the Scriptures that it states that there is difference in Law given by YAH. You and man may dream up titles and words to call differences as in "noahidic" and so forth but YAH's Word is His Truth and anyone that is to abide in Him must obey and follow that Truth. You may not agree with the Truth and rather decide to believe lies. That is your right. I on the other hand choose to follow Truth. You have to remember that the Word/Truth was with YAH in the beginning. YAH made all through His Word/Truth. We as His creation is bound by His Word/Truth forever. If you don't abide by His Word/Truth then you will be as if you never was.

I haven't had the chance to read the article you linked just yet but I will. Just try to remember that I am not a christian nor a jew and take offense in being observed as either. I do not believe in religion but only the Truth. Please don't drag me down with the inherent dogma of man's traditions and futile understandings. I will only listen to and obey Truth. I am not perfect and do make my fair share of mistakes as anyone else therefore I do sin but through the Faith of YAHshua, the Anointed, and the Spirit, I feel comfort in knowing of my deliverance. My sin I do not in defiance but rather from ignorance and that of the flesh. To sin in defiance is surely death.

Maybe knowledge of Judaism would help in my understanding of where you are coming from......... Question........ If you are no longer able to make blood sacrifices and to give offerings then how is sin forgiven?

EDIT.... Funny. I just read the article and now looking at my question it kinda makes me laugh.

I take the article is trying to say that Jews believe that man is good from the beginning and that if they sin they cannot be forgiven without Messiah and Messiah won't come without repentance but you can't repent without Messiah? On the other hand it tells me that Christianity looks at man as being bad from beginning and cannot abide by Law so only has to believe in Messiah to be saved. ????????????

What has all this got to do with what I am talking about? I only care about Truth. Not what people have dreamed up over time and traditions of man and their vile understandings of what they think is the will of Elohim. YAH will have the final say. Just hope and pray that all that say they have it right do but I say again that not all can. There is only one way and that is the way of Truth. For Satan is the Father of all lie's. Truth is where it's at. Anything else is but lie's.

jewscout · Dec 16, 2005

wmam said:
Just try to remember that I am not a christian nor a jew and take offense in being observed as either

my apologies for any offense...but the belief system you are describing falls very much in line w/ the teachings of Paul and many sects of Christianity IMPO

wmam said:
If you are no longer able to make blood sacrifices and to give offerings then how is sin forgiven?

by repentance for our actions, a sincere change of conduct and performing Mitzvot

wmam said:
I take the article is trying to say that Jews believe that man is good from the beginning and that if they sin they cannot be forgiven without Messiah and Messiah won't come without repentance but you can't repent without Messiah? On the other hand it tells me that Christianity looks at man as being bad from beginning and cannot abide by Law so only has to believe in Messiah to be saved. ????????????

try rereading the article and reevaluate the former part of this statement

wmam said:
What has all this got to do with what I am talking about? I only care about Truth. Not what people have dreamed up over time and traditions of man and their vile understandings of what they think is the will of Elohim. YAH will have the final say. Just hope and pray that all that say they have it right do but I say again that not all can. There is only one way and that is the way of Truth. For Satan is the Father of all lie's. Truth is where it's at. Anything else is but lie's.

you are correct that HaShem will have the final say
and who is to say which, if any, is the right path...perhaps there is no true one path but paths for each person

wmam · Dec 16, 2005

jewscout said:
my apologies for any offense...but the belief system you are describing falls very much in line w/ the teachings of Paul and many sects of Christianity IMPO

No Problem........ My belief may have some of allot of different understandings within it. It's not that I, or anyone, has taken from them but rather the other way around. My belief is that of Truth.

jewscout said:
by repentance for our actions, a sincere change of conduct and performing Mitzvot

So you ask for forgiveness for not obeying. You change from disobeying to obeying. Where is this said to be the way to deliverance in Scripture?

jewscout said:
try rereading the article and reevaluate the former part of this statement

I did and still come up with the same thing.

jewscout said:
you are correct that HaShem will have the final say

I'm glad you agree that YAH, our Elohim will have the final say.

jewscout said:
and who is to say which, if any, is the right path...

The Spirit, and I mean the True Spirit of Elohim, should show you the True way.

jewscout said:
perhaps there is no true one path but paths for each person

To me, this is incorrect thinking. It is of Satan that would put lie's into your mind to disbelieve what has been inspired by the will of YAH, our Elohim.

sushannah · Dec 17, 2005

angellous_evangellous said:
Christians believe that Jesus fulfilled the law, so we live as the law is fulfilled in Christ. We believe that Jesus is still alive, being risen from the dead, a continual fulfillment of every law and prophesy of the Hebrews. We don't need to observe the law because Jesus observes it for us. This doesn't mean that we don't care about morality or sin. On the contrary, we have a long tradition of living as pure lives as we can in the name of Jesus.

In fulfilling the law, Jesus gave to us a new law that fulfills all the old requirements: love God and love our fellow human beings. That is the law that we follow now...

Love G-d and your brother as yourself is also attributed to Hillel. Again, the point is that this is in line with traditional Jewish teaching. Like Jesus, Hillel lived by the law and did not believe that to love G-d and your neighbor meant to quit being observant of the law. I think the problem lies with the teachings of Paul. Paul proposed something quite different than anything Jesus ever did. Jesus would have never of started a new religion with himself featured as a god. This would be blasphemous.

sandy whitelinger · Dec 17, 2005

sushannah said:
If Jesus was a Jew, Lived as a Jew, observed the torah and the festivals, then why do Christians do the opposite.

"O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you....." Try reading Galations; it might explain it to you better than anyone here has done so far.....that is unless you just want to argue a point!Knockout

Nehustan · Dec 17, 2005

sushannah said:
Love G-d and your brother as yourself is also attributed to Hillel. Again, the point is that this is in line with traditional Jewish teaching. Like Jesus, Hillel lived by the law and did not believe that to love G-d and your neighbor meant to quit being observant of the law. I think the problem lies with the teachings of Paul. Paul proposed something quite different than anything Jesus ever did. Jesus would have never of started a new religion with himself featured as a god. This would be blasphemous.

There is specific scripture on this matter Susannah, which I will post...

'Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me? The Jews answered Him, saying, For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God. Jesus answered them,

Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him. Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.' John 10:31-39

which refers to the psalms of David...

'I said, You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High."' Pslams 82:6

this said I think you are absolutley right, that it was, and is seen by some (the lay people if not the rabbis) as blasphemy. I think this falls back to the Jahweh/Eloah debate that has has come down through the ages. It is very possible that Man was made in the image of Jahweh, but certainly not in the image of Eloah as Eloah has no image, Ain Soph Aur as it were. Even during time as Christian, and my indoctrination to the Nicean creed, I was overwhelmingly taught of God as a Heavenly father, father of all creation, this stellar system, and all others, creator of the heavens, yet not within them. I have ceased to cling to this metaphor, though I testify that Jahweh through Jehehsuah that brought me to this truth. It is clear throughout the gospels that Jeheshuah preferred the appellation 'son of man'.

Jayhawker Soule · Dec 17, 2005

It is interesting to see so much confidence based so firmly on fictive, second hand accounts by apologist seeking to market a product.

Quiddity · Dec 17, 2005

Deut. 10:19 said:
It is interesting to see so much confidence based so firmly on fictive, second hand accounts by apologist seeking to market a product.

It's done a good enough to bring an atheist to a "religious forum". :jiggy:

~Victor

sushannah · Dec 17, 2005

Nehustan said:
There is specific scripture on this matter Susannah, which I will post...

'Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me? The Jews answered Him, saying, For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God. Jesus answered them,
Is it not written in your law, I said, You are gods? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, You are blaspheming, because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; but if I do, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in Me, and I in Him. Therefore they sought again to seize Him, but He escaped out of their hand.' John 10:31-39

which refers to the psalms of David...

'I said, You are gods, And all of you are children of the Most High."' Pslams 82:6

this said I think you are absolutley right, that it was, and is seen by some (the lay people if not the rabbis) as blasphemy. I think this falls back to the Jahweh/Eloah debate that has has come down through the ages. It is very possible that Man was made in the image of Jahweh, but certainly not in the image of Eloah as Eloah has no image, Ain Soph Aur as it were. Even during time as Christian, and my indoctrination to the Nicean creed, I was overwhelmingly taught of God as a Heavenly father, father of all creation, this stellar system, and all others, creator of the heavens, yet not within them. I have ceased to cling to this metaphor, though I testify that Jahweh through Jehehsuah that brought me to this truth. It is clear throughout the gospels that Jeheshuah preferred the appellation 'son of man'.

Psalm 82 - very interesting and sometimes hard to understand. First you must understand who and what is being addressed here. It states that G-d stands in a divine assembly, so man was not who He was talking to. He was talking about the false and polytheist beliefs that exist at that time. When it says you are children of the most high. This is also a phrase that is said of Baal who is called the son of El Elyon which means the son of the most high in the canninite language. The word used in psalm 82 is El Elyon. The Jewish people were exiled to Babylon for worshipping Baal.

Jayhawker Soule · Dec 17, 2005

Psalm 82 is a polemic against the West Semitic pantheon and reflects the henotheism of the nascent Israelites.

Think Bright · Dec 17, 2005

Victor said:
It's done a good enough to bring an atheist to a "religious forum". :jiggy:

~Victor

Yeah Someone has to keep ya in line. Maybe you'll learn somethin "bright"

wmam · Dec 17, 2005

Maybe Psalms 82 is saying that we that are yearning to be as YAH are a part of Elohim therefore as all of us together as one are Elohim. Like pieces of the puzzle. And like the eye that was causing bad was to be plucked out and did away with so was Satan cast out along with all those that attached themselves to him. No longer are they a part of Elohim but as a whole and one Elohim we will guard fast the Word and Truth of YAH. We will prevail in righteousness.

Deut 13:1 · Dec 18, 2005

wmam said:
Deu 6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Did you read the whole chapter? Probably not...
Diligently keep the commandments of the Lord, your God, and His testimonies. and His statutes, which He has commanded you.

Okay, so we keep them in our hearts through our actions, not after the hypocrital "I'm saved".

wmam · Dec 18, 2005

Binyamin said:
Did you read the whole chapter? Probably not...
Diligently keep the commandments of the Lord, your God, and His testimonies. and His statutes, which He has commanded you.

Okay, so we keep them in our hearts through our actions, not after the hypocrital "I'm saved".

We keep them in our minds constantly learning day and night of His will through His Truth. But not just the hearers of the law, mind you, but the doers.

I agree with the second part of what you said. You can't just say you are saved and it be so. You have to change your ways and yearn to sin no more. Would the Spirit inhabit an unclean space? I feel that one would need to be on that path. One would need to be Truly cleansed by the Spirit before the Spirit were to inhabit them. To be saved one would need to obey the Father as well and not just believe. The Spirit is not going to stay in something that is considered as an enemy of YAH. Thats perverse. You would need to do some serious house cleaning before the Spirit were to settle inside you. To do this one would need to be truly saved which would mean that one would have to be truly forgiven of all sins and sin no more. For if you truly believed, wouldn't you obey? If you truly loved, wouldn't you obey? If you truly feared, wouldn't you obey? You need both, faith and the law. For faith, without works, is dead and for what purpose you do the works if not for faith? If you don't believe then why would you want to do the works? It has been said that one would say "I have faith" and another would say that "through my works I show my faith".

Theres far more to it than just saying I am saved and being immersed in water by some preacher that probably isn't even truly saved himself. Not obeying himself. How could he even truly perform such a task? Wouldn't it be of none effect? Not that it is him that does so but YAH through the Spirit but why would it occur by way of those that do not truly believe or obey? I think it wouldn't.

wmam · Dec 18, 2005

Oh .......... and yes I did read it all. Your point?

Jesus Lived as a Jew

wmam

Active Member

jewscout

Religious Zionist

wmam

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jewscout

Religious Zionist

wmam

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jewscout

Religious Zionist

wmam

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sushannah

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sandy whitelinger

Veteran Member

Nehustan

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Jayhawker Soule

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Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants

sushannah

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Jayhawker Soule

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Think Bright

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wmam

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Deut 13:1

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wmam

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wmam

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