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Koran v. Bible

1robin

Christian/Baptist
Only in your opinion.

The Baha'i scriptures explain the apparent difference very satisfactorily, IOV!

They explain that the Qur'an is speaking of the fact that the Spirit of Jesus wasn't destroyed even though He was indeed killed.

Peace, :)

Bruce
And Baha' i can claim mount Rushmore has the faces of the threee stooges on it as well. Or Baha'i could claim that Newtons second law of thermodynamics is wrong as well. That has no meaning whatsoever. I will refer to the guys that have been discussing their own verses for over a thousand years and ignore this 19th century oriental philosophy in this matter.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
This again The Quranic verses says Not Crucified NOR KILLED
Crucifixion doesn't mean that one needs to die it means that one is being nailed/hanged on a cross that's why it says Nor killed after the crucifixion.

So the Crucifixion and the killing didn't happen.

It also makes no sense to say that Jesus(p) died because according to the biblical scriptures a Soul cannot die and if there argument is that the body died that means Jesus(p) didn't die since the Soul is you and the body is a shell also supported by scriptures.
F0uad, I would like to bring up the only relevant point I can think of that can shed any light on this. As I mentioned before the bible records that many many people were killed or died through out history. The Quran says the same. Since all those people, I think you will agree, have eternal souls then the biblical definition of death must mean physical death. So by the bible definition of death then Jesus was killed and he died. However (and there is always a however) the bible also refers to a second death. This one is totally different than the regular case. It involves eternal seperation from God for non believers at the judgement. This second case has nothing to do with Christ but I thought I would mention it.
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
F0uad, I would like to bring up the only relevant point I can think of that can shed any light on this. As I mentioned before the bible records that many many people were killed or died through out history. The Quran says the same. Since all those people, I think you will agree, have eternal souls then the biblical definition of death must mean physical death. So by the bible definition of death then Jesus was killed and he died. However (and there is always a however) the bible also refers to a second death. This one is totally different than the regular case. It involves eternal seperation from God for non believers at the judgement. This second case has nothing to do with Christ but I thought I would mention it.

If you don't mind i will answer your 10/12points tomorrow its late here.
I am aware of the second death from the biblical position but as you said it could never have a meaning inside the live of Jesus(p).

Just a little question if you are your soul and your body is just a shell wherein your soul functions, then your body is not really destroyed. With that in mind Jesus(p) didn't really die wouldn't you agree? So why isn't the teaching that the body of Jesus(p) died, a shell, a couple of atoms for the sins of man.. or doesn't that sound (sexy)? :D
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
F0uad, I would like to bring up the only relevant point I can think of that can shed any light on this. As I mentioned before the bible records that many many people were killed or died through out history. The Quran says the same. Since all those people, I think you will agree, have eternal souls then the biblical definition of death must mean physical death. So by the bible definition of death then Jesus was killed and he died. However (and there is always a however) the bible also refers to a second death. This one is totally different than the regular case. It involves eternal seperation from God for non believers at the judgement. This second case has nothing to do with Christ but I thought I would mention it.

If you don't mind i will answer your 10/12points tomorrow its late here.
I am aware of the second death from the biblical position but as you said it could never have a meaning inside the live of Jesus(p).

Just a little question if you are your soul and your body is just a shell wherein your soul functions, then your body is not really destroyed. With that in mind Jesus(p) didn't really die wouldn't you agree? So why isn't the teaching that the body of Jesus(p) died, a shell, a couple of atoms for the sins of man.. or doesn't that sound (sexy)? :D
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
That's it I am done with you for now. Do you have no sence of shame that would drive you to actually say something of substance every now and then. This is a waste of your, and what is infinately more valuable, my time. You are like a blind sarcastic drive by shooter that can't hit anything.

i think i hit a nerve
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
If you don't mind i will answer your 10/12points tomorrow its late here.
I am aware of the second death from the biblical position but as you said it could never have a meaning inside the live of Jesus(p).

Just a little question if you are your soul and your body is just a shell wherein your soul functions, then your body is not really destroyed. With that in mind Jesus(p) didn't really die wouldn't you agree? So why isn't the teaching that the body of Jesus(p) died, a shell, a couple of atoms for the sins of man.. or doesn't that sound (sexy)? :D
Your comments on the second death are correct but irrelevant to our discussion. If you say that no one can die because they have an eternal soul then why is the death of so many claimed by the Quran and the bible. It is biblicly consistent that Jesus died by the biblical definition of the term even if his soul never did. The bible must be defined by the bible. Death in the bible appears to mean physical death alone. You may address my response to your list anytime you chose. I think I am about ready to get out of here as well the conversations have become silly.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
This again The Quranic verses says Not Crucified NOR KILLED.

You're most welcome to your opinion, but we hold firm to ours that He was indeed killed.

We fully agree with you that His soul or spirit wasn't affected, and obviously, neither was His religion given that it has since flourished!

[to a third party] f you are your soul and your body is just a shell wherein your soul functions, then your body is not really destroyed.


The Baha'i scriptures state otherwise because they say the soul is entirely separate from the body and ever enters into it.

Peace, :)

Bruce
 
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BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
I can not download the spell check and I hate english so if you are interested in grammer don't look at me.

Your loss.
BTW, I have LOTS of defensible positions! But I simply thought I'd do you a favor and point out a way to make your own posts appear more sensible.

And whether YOU like it or not, I've worked as an editor both in the past and right now ahd have edited around 25 books in the past three years. So like it or not, I do have the abilitiy to spot these things.

I will refer to the guys that have been discussing their own verses for over a thousand years and ignore this 19th century oriental philosophy in this matter.

Your choice, but again, IMHO you're risking a big loss by not checking this further.

(Nor do I understand why you can't download a spell-checker.)

Peace, :)

Bruce
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
Your loss.
BTW, I have LOTS of defensible positions! But I simply thought I'd do you a favor and point out a way to make your own posts appear more sensible.
If I could download the program I would.

And whether YOU like it or not, I've worked as an editor both in the past and right now ahd have edited around 25 books in the past three years. So like it or not, I do have the abilitiy to spot these things.
You didn't spot that one in your statement above.


Your choice, but again, IMHO you're risking a big loss by not checking this further.
I have checked those verses within the muslim context out quite a bit. I see no reason to go outside Christian and muslim scholarship on Christian and Muslim holy works. Your guy didn't rise from the dead or create the no 2 religion in the world.

(Nor do I understand why you can't download a spell-checker.)
I can't install any program on the computer I use at work.

Have you ever seen the Bruce skit by Monte Python?
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
If you don't mind i will answer your 10/12points tomorrow its late here.
I am aware of the second death from the biblical position but as you said it could never have a meaning inside the live of Jesus(p).

Just a little question if you are your soul and your body is just a shell wherein your soul functions, then your body is not really destroyed. With that in mind Jesus(p) didn't really die wouldn't you agree? So why isn't the teaching that the body of Jesus(p) died, a shell, a couple of atoms for the sins of man.. or doesn't that sound (sexy)? :D
F0uad you changed your avatar and dissapeared. You ok?
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
F0uad you changed your avatar and dissapeared. You ok?

Yes i am ok ;) and sorry for not replying before i really didn't had time to go back and forward on the pages but let me make a little rebuttal of the things we have said. I will comment on the other things you have said later.

You claimed that the Apostles knew Greek but if this was the case then the disciples didn't came from the lower class. Only the Middle and higher classes in the Roman Empire and Palestine knew Greek according to Historians. The Gospels themselves tell us that John and Peter were illiterate fisherman's: Acts 4:13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus. or John 7:15 The Jews were amazed and asked, "How did this man get such learning without having studied?" So the Translations errors are still there and surely if you belief that Jesus(p) spoke Greek instead of Aramaic then your just out of your mind since it makes no sense.

The Apostles didn't write the gospels. We don't know who wrote them, except that the writers were educated and wrote in fluent Greek. A bunch of fishermen from Galilee writing in educated Greek? Don't think so they probably heard it from Oral-tradition and nothing more. It wouldn't also make no sense because its always According to.. and surely if John or any other disciple wrote it he would say ''I John saw.. or I John did..''.

We all know that there are over 400,000 textual variants some are small, some are big, some are spelling variants and there are also pronouncing variants people who do not see this as a problem are really distorted in my opinion. I will give you a small example of a small variant in 1 Thessalonian 2:7 ''We became gentle among you.. and the other variant translates it like ''We became little children among you'' the difference is just one letter the word Hpioi means gentile and Nhpioi means children. So with that in mind whole verses could have mean different things.

You also forget the point that the writes of the gospels were not eye-witnesses nor disciples since MOST of the historians tell us that the most earliest gospel was around 60/65 A.D till 150/200 A.D and tell us that Mark has the most of the earliest scriptures. So my argument that the Story of Jesus(p) of being evolved and ''sexed'' up to convert people is not a weak one since we can read in Mark that he is more portraited as a human prophet/messenger and latter in John he seems divine what came as the last Gospel.

You can have a different opinion by dating back the scriptures but as you know the Universities and ''Church-schools'' teach themselves that the scriptures came from this time line and they have some real strong arguments to back up there claim so i rather stick with the arguments of the Majority Historians and Biblical scholars then your opinion.

You have accepted the fact that there is a 5% Corruption the number doesn't really matter but your idea was that it wasn't corrupted yet on other posts you claimed it is corrupted what seems as a weird statement. Also if we accepted the 5% then surely we can accept that there is a possibility that more has been corrupted. Lets see what the RSV did what was examined and done by 32 Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by 50 different co-operating denominations we also know that the other translations did the same things.

They removed these verses:

  1. Matt 12:47
  2. Matt 17:21
  3. Matt 18:11
  4. Matt 21:44
  5. Matt 23:14
  6. Mark 7:16
  7. Mark 9:44
  8. Mark 9:46
  9. Mark 11:26
  10. Mark 15:28
  11. Mark 16: from verse 9 to 20
  12. Luke 17:36
  13. Luke 22:43
  14. Luke 22:44
  15. Luke 23:17
  16. Luke 24:12
  17. Luke 24:40
  18. John 5:4
  19. John from 7:53 TILL 8:11
  20. Acts 8:37
  21. Acts 15:34
  22. Acts 24:7
  23. Acts 28:29
  24. Rom 16:24
  25. 2 Cor 13:14
  26. James 1:8
There are also 25Verses that have been totally changed by the RSV since it didn't fit the Greek sayings there are also little changes off-course. Now if we would follow the RSV then we can come to the conclusion that many of the works have indeed being influenced also words like God-Head, Lucifer, damned and more are all removed.

The Trinity verse was a interpolation - taken out
The God-Head verse was a interpolation - taken out
The Beggoten-Son was was a interpolation - taken out
And i can give much more examples but you get the point that interpolations and influences defiantly have taken place.

According to advance information on the Codex Sinaiitcus, at least part of the Gospel of Mark (the Ascension) seems to have been edited in after the original Gospel was included in the first Bible. The original Gospel of Mark ends with the apostles finding an empty tomb and fleeing in terror.

Now i really haven't tackle the preservation but rather have given examples of influences and the possibilities of corruption. I will do so in my next message and give examples why many historians do not use it as a historical book or at-least shouldn't use it. Remember i have quoted nothing or copied/pasted a article since i want this to be a discussion between the two us of sharing our views on it and not that of others.
 
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BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
You didn't spot that one in your statement above.

I did in fact spot it, but the system had already protected the post such that I couldn't edit it to correct it.

I see no reason to go outside Christian and muslim scholarship on Christian and Muslim holy works. Your guy didn't rise from the dead or create the no 2 religion in the world.

In fact, in terms of the locations where members live, the Baha'i Faith is in fact the second most widely distributed religion in the world--right after Christianity, and has been so since 1991! (Source: Encyclopedia Britannica) The specifics:

-----RELIGION----------NUMBER OF LOCALITIES-----
... Christianity ............... 140,000
... Baha'i Faith ............... 110,000
.... All others ................. 90,000 or fewer

And in any case, you might well find what the Baha'i Faith and its scriptures provide most illuminating and helpful! :)

Have you ever seen the Bruce skit by Monte Python?

Never heard of it.

And it's "Monty," BTW.

Peace, :)

Bruce
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
Yes i am ok ;) and sorry for not replying before i really didn't had time to go back and forward on the pages but let me make a little rebuttal of the things we have said. I will comment on the other things you have said later.
As you wish.

You claimed that the Apostles knew Greek but if this was the case then the disciples didn't came from the lower class. Only the Middle and higher classes in the Roman Empire and Palestine knew Greek according to Historians. The Gospels themselves tell us that John and Peter were illiterate fisherman's: Acts 4:13 When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus. or John 7:15 The Jews were amazed and asked, "How did this man get such learning without having studied?" So the Translations errors are still there and surely if you belief that Jesus(p) spoke Greek instead of Aramaic then your just out of your mind since it makes no sense.
I didn't claim they went to a university to learn Greek or do calculus. I said that modern archeology has discovered that Greek was a very common and many time the primary language of that time. You will find all kinds of evidence that the apostles spoke greek at this site which contains the statement below..
"One of the most surprising facts about these funerary inscriptions is that most of them are IN GREEK -- approximately 70 percent; about 12 percent are in Latin; and only 18 percent are in Hebrew or Aramaic. Apparently 70% spoke Greek judgeing from this fact.
Why the New Testament was Written in Greek, Not Hebrew

Here is something that addresses your ignorant fisherman idea:



Fishing was a major industry at the time of Jesus. From various places in the New Testament, classical, and Jewish sources, we learn the following about the 2 teams of fisherman brothers, Peter and Andrew, and James and John.
  • Fishing was a major international business.
  • The four brothers had their own prosperous fishing business, owned their own nets and boats, and had multiple employees who worked under them. (This is probably what allowed them to follow Jesus.)
  • The brothers changed the city their business was based out of in order to get a tax break (!).
  • The brothers probably spoke Aramaic (with a Galillean accent), Hebrew, and Greek, the language of the elite and educated.
  • The house of the CEO (Peter) in Capernaum was unusually large. (Mentioned in O’Connor’s article, but taken up in-depth elsewhere.)*See update below.
In other words, borrowing the article summary elsewhere in Bible Review, the first “First Presidency” was not made up of gullible, backwoods ignoramuses. “Rather, they were no-nonsense, relatively prosperous businessmen very much in control of their lives— important characteristics because much of what we know of Jesus’ sayings and acts flows from the testimony of these fishermen.”
» The First Apostles- Poor Ignorant Fishermen? The Millennial Star

The Apostles didn't write the gospels. We don't know who wrote them, except that the writers were educated and wrote in fluent Greek. A bunch of fishermen from Galilee writing in educated Greek? Don't think so they probably heard it from Oral-tradition and nothing more. It wouldn't also make no sense because its always According to.. and surely if John or any other disciple wrote it he would say ''I John saw.. or I John did..''.
F0uad you know I have posted much information that supports the fact they wrote or dictated them personally, so this is no more than an unjustified "Nuh- uh" My modern NIV bible worked on by over 100 of the worlds New testament Scholars says they wrote them except for I think "Hebrews" but am not sure, and even this one they are virtually but not completely sure was Paul.


We all know that there are over 400,000 textual variants some are small, some are big, some are spelling variants and there are also pronouncing variants people who do not see this as a problem are really distorted in my opinion. I will give you a small example of a small variant in 1 Thessalonian 2:7 ''We became gentle among you.. and the other variant translates it like ''We became little children among you'' the difference is just one letter the word Hpioi means gentile and Nhpioi means children. So with that in mind whole verses could have mean different things.
You must have been reading up on your Ehrman. This is well known as an accurate but inapropriate number and dishonest scholarship. If you will research it some more you will notice that the entire new testament contains 138,000 words so what is he talking about. He is counting every error in every manuscript ever written even in parralel lines of transmission. In other words something like over 10,000 manuscripts each with approx 138,000 words contain errors. This actually equals only about 3450 words per bible text. 3,450/138,000 equals .25% Hardly meaningful. When it's all said and done even Bart agrees there actually about 6,000 errors in each modern bible. That adds up to something like one in every three pages or 5%. However when you remove the meaningless ones there is very little error indeed. Like I said the bible has about 5% unreliable information in it. We know where 99% of that occurs and have put footnotes indicating them. I have read there are absolutely no errors in any verses containing core doctrine. I am running out of time if you will repost your specific examples I will address them later.



You also forget the point that the writes of the gospels were not eye-witnesses nor disciples since MOST of the historians tell us that the most earliest gospel was around 60/65 A.D till 150/200 A.D and tell us that Mark has the most of the earliest scriptures. So my argument that the Story of Jesus(p) of being evolved and ''sexed'' up to convert people is not a weak one since we can read in Mark that he is more portraited as a human prophet/messenger and latter in John he seems divine what came as the last Gospel.
I even quoted you statements within some of the apsostles writings that say they were eyewitness. Those dates are the highest most liberals dates used and show you are selecting the worst data you can find. I have already shown many many reasons to believe they were far earlier. Your point about evolution is not necessarily a pathetic one but one that ultimately is false. Especially when you consider that that was John's role. Each had a different perspective and intent to cover his life and it's meaning from different angels. So the fact they mention some different facts as long as don't directly contradict is exactly what we expect. It certainly is much more reliable than one man claiming something. That's the worst case possible. I will show all this when we are through with the bible.



You can have a different opinion by dating back the scriptures but as you know the Universities and ''Church-schools'' teach themselves that the scriptures came from this time line and they have some real strong arguments to back up there claim so i rather stick with the arguments of the Majority Historians and Biblical scholars then your opinion.
Those dates are not the most common that you gave. The most common are 60AD to 110AD but even these are being adjusted downward as time goes by and we learn more. The arguments I gave for earlier dates you have not addressed and are very hard to refute.

You have accepted the fact that there is a 5% Corruption the number doesn't really matter but your idea was that it wasn't corrupted yet on other posts you claimed it is corrupted what seems as a weird statement. Also if we accepted the 5% then surely we can accept that there is a possibility that more has been corrupted. Lets see what the RSV did what was examined and done by 32 Christian scholars of the highest eminence backed by 50 different co-operating denominations we also know that the other translations did the same things.
I have always thought and attempted to write that there are approx 5% that is unreliable if you will post the statements where I said differently I will address them however I do not think I ever did. It is just as likely there are fewer. This is an argument from silence and is invalid. I am out of time and will address the rest later. With the exception of this part below you didn't say anything new here and I already provided evidence for my original claims that wasn't refuted. Once again try to make more but shorter posts if you can these are so long I can't reply in one post.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
I did in fact spot it, but the system had already protected the post such that I couldn't edit it to correct it.
Ok but you got to appreciate the irony.



In fact, in terms of the locations where members live, the Baha'i Faith is in fact the second most widely distributed religion in the world--right after Christianity, and has been so since 1991! (Source: Encyclopedia Britannica) The specifics:

-----RELIGION----------NUMBER OF LOCALITIES-----
... Christianity ............... 140,000
... Baha'i Faith ............... 110,000
.... All others ................. 90,000 or fewer

And in any case, you might well find what the Baha'i Faith and its scriptures provide most illuminating and helpful! :)
Even if it is the most widely scattered that is no argument for reliability. The fact that you used it as such suggests desperation. It is like saying that if the next astronaught to land on the moon is a follower of Thor then Thorism is the most widely circulated religion. It is meaningless. Besides with the internet there is no way you know that it is the most widely distributed even if it did matter. I asked you enough questions and actually got no legitamate responses to justify research into another new age belief system, especially since I have already let God spiritually through a biblical salvation experience. There is no need to look further.


Never heard of it.
And it's "Monty," BTW.

Peace, :)

Bruce
Then how did you know how they spell it. You are still more than welcome to either post a link or verse that you think proves your religions devine origins. I never got one so far. Shalom.
 

F0uad

Well-Known Member
This is getting ridiculous your dodging all my claims and make your own things up while spinning around the statements, can you for once make your own arguments or points without quoting things, the article didn't even address the argument i broth forth.

The verses says they are illiterate yet you are telling me they aren't. Fishing wasn't a big international practice in Palestine only in the Roman Capital and bigger cities. Where is the proof they had Fish ''Companies''? I thought the disciples were sinners, poor and Jesus(p) was there to educate them at-least this is how i read the scriptures.

I didn't claim they went to a university to learn Greek or do calculus. I said that modern archeology has discovered that Greek was a very common and many time the primary language of that time. You will find all kinds of evidence that the apostles spoke greek at this site which contains the statement below..
"One of the most surprising facts about these funerary inscriptions is that most of them are IN GREEK -- approximately 70 percent; about 12 percent are in Latin; and only 18 percent are in Hebrew or Aramaic. Apparently 70% spoke Greek judgeing from this fact.

Nor did i say you did, i said the lower-class who couldn't afford a education or had actually time to learn a other language defiantly didn't know Greek. Lol ''apparently spoke 70% Greek'' if you were a historian i would never accept one single word from you, only RICH and educated people could write Greek therefore they wrote it down and not the lower-class what was a majority in Palestine. Even in the Roman Empire the lower-class and many of the middle-class didn't know Greek only if they had learn it what actually costs money and time, Palestine was a out-skirt so its even harder to learn Greek there. Since only learned man could pay for a education and could write then its normal that the ancient foundings in Greek are from learned/educated rich man.

F0uad you know I have posted much information that supports the fact they wrote or dictated them personally, so this is no more than an unjustified "Nuh- uh" My modern NIV bible worked on by over 100 of the worlds New testament Scholars says they wrote them except for I think "Hebrews" but am not sure, and even this one they are virtually but not completely sure was Paul.

Why are you lying no New-Testament scholar agrees that the gospels are written by eye-witnesses. I am not sure what you are trying to say here but are you just running away from what i have said?

Tell me how can a eye-witness write something 60/110years after the ''thing'' happened are you saying that the eye-witnesses were 200/300years old?


You must have been reading up on your Ehrman. This is well known as an accurate but inapropriate number and dishonest scholarship. If you will research it some more you will notice that the entire new testament contains 138,000 words so what is he talking about. He is counting every error in every manuscript ever written even in parralel lines of transmission. In other words something like over 10,000 manuscripts each with approx 138,000 words contain errors. This actually equals only about 3450 words per bible text. 3,450/138,000 equals .25% Hardly meaningful. When it's all said and done even Bart agrees there actually about 6,000 errors in each modern bible. That adds up to something like one in every three pages or 5%. However when you remove the meaningless ones there is very little error indeed. Like I said the bible has about 5% unreliable information in it. We know where 99% of that occurs and have put footnotes indicating them. I have read there are absolutely no errors in any verses containing core doctrine. I am running out of time if you will repost your specific examples I will address them later.

No i haven't this is also accepted by many BIBLICAL SCHOLARS WHO ARE CHRISTIANS. I am not the one who is quoting specific individuals to make a claim i only support arguments that are hold by many. You probably do not understand what a variant is or what a orally variant is i will let you have some time to study the variants and the claim before actually refuting your whole message.

I even quoted you statements within some of the apsostles writings that say they were eyewitness. Those dates are the highest most liberals dates used and show you are selecting the worst data you can find. I have already shown many many reasons to believe they were far earlier. Your point about evolution is not necessarily a pathetic one but one that ultimately is false. Especially when you consider that that was John's role. Each had a different perspective and intent to cover his life and it's meaning from different angels. So the fact they mention some different facts as long as don't directly contradict is exactly what we expect. It certainly is much more reliable than one man claiming something. That's the worst case possible. I will show all this when we are through with the bible.
I am sorry to say but how does this dis-proof my claim and i really don't care about a certain article since its accepted by the most Historians, Biblical scholars and Universities.

So are you saying that in the earlier scriptures of Mark he is isn't describes more as a human-being then in the newer ones of Mark? We can clearly see in Mark he is lifted up more when we read the newer Scriptures of Mark, also in the older scriptures of Matthew and Luke its the same story and in the newer ones he is lifted up. Since John is the last one we can assume that the story is ''sexed'' up because there he is fully divined if you want me to give scriptural examples ask me.


Those dates are not the most common that you gave. The most common are 60AD to 110AD but even these are being adjusted downward as time goes by and we learn more. The arguments I gave for earlier dates you have not addressed and are very hard to refute.

Like i said i don't care about your dating since its accepted by most of the historians, biblical scholars and universities i rather belief them then you on this subject. The dates i gave are right the 60 A.D till 110 A.D is from Mark John has 80/90/150 A.D some even say they are dated back to 250 A.D but since i only follow the Majority i will stick to those.

I have always thought and attempted to write that there are approx 5% that is unreliable
Ok let me ask a simpler question if 5% is not reliable then you agree that there are Corruptions, Interpolations and Influences in the scripture right and how is this reliable?

So how can we say that only 5% is corrupted while the Time-Span is so big, some scriptures came 110Years after as you just stated above.
 

1robin

Christian/Baptist
This is getting ridiculous your dodging all my claims and make your own things up while spinning around the statements, can you for once make your own arguments or points without quoting things, the article didn't even address the argument i broth forth.
Not rediculous, you are just getting frustrated because I won't buy into the false premises you are forced to make. What kind of request is this? You accuse me of making up my own things, and then suggest I should make up my own things and ignore scholars. I can't imagine a more meaningless statement. I will use experts as well as my own knowledge to respond. You have a great difficulty. You cannot except the bible as reliable without contradicting Muhammad and so you will not do it. This leads you to ignore solid evidence and assert less reliable evidence. For example your next statement.

The verses says they are illiterate yet you are telling me they aren't. Fishing wasn't a big international practice in Palestine only in the Roman Capital and bigger cities. Where is the proof they had Fish ''Companies''? I thought the disciples were sinners, poor and Jesus(p) was there to educate them at-least this is how i read the scriptures.
I checked the three most used bible versions in the world they do not even contain the word illiterate. Are you actually suggesting a costal country that also contains a huge inland sea did not have a substantial fishing industry? Several port cities were renowned for their fishing industry. The desciples ranged from the non religously educated to experts in Hebrew scriptures. Some were ignorant and some were educated doctors and tax collectors. Even Luke's name (Theophilus) is a Greek name. I do think that one of the Gospels was perhaps written in Aramaic according to Eusebias but the rest were Greek. Even if the Apostle didn't speak Greeek it would have been a simple matter to employ a Greek scripe and dictate to him. I not suggesting this is the case but showing how easy it was no matter whether every Apostle spoke Greek or not. There is nothing to suggest they were un familiar with Greek.


Nor did i say you did, i said the lower-class who couldn't afford a education or had actually time to learn a other language defiantly didn't know Greek. Lol ''apparently spoke 70% Greek'' if you were a historian i would never accept one single word from you, only RICH and educated people could write Greek therefore they wrote it down and not the lower-class what was a majority in Palestine.
And apparently no actual historian either. That statement was copied from a detailed historical study into Greek speaking Israel. You can't argue with the fact that 70% of the markers are in Greek. Thats a fact. Since class isn't the decideing factor in who speaks Spanish for instance in the U.S. then it follows that class did not stop the Hebrews.




Even in the Roman Empire the lower-class and many of the middle-class didn't know Greek only if they had learn it what actually costs money and time, Palestine was a out-skirt so its even harder to learn Greek there. Since only learned man could pay for a education and could write then its normal that the ancient foundings in Greek are from learned/educated rich man.
You are simply stateing an opinion without any facts to back it up. If you had actually read this detailed study you would have realised you are incorrect.
Why the New Testament was Written in Greek, Not Hebrew
or this one http://aramaicnt.com/files/Did The Jews of Israel speak Greek or Aramaic.pdf
In fact it is know for certain that at least a few of the apostles without doubt spoke greek as a primary language. It is likely the rest did as a secondary.

Why are you lying no New-Testament scholar agrees that the gospels are written by eye-witnesses. I am not sure what you are trying to say here but are you just running away from what i have said?
If you want to continue this discussion do not accuse me of lying ever again. I have no need to lie to defend the bible.



Tell me how can a eye-witness write something 60/110years after the ''thing'' happened are you saying that the eye-witnesses were 200/300years old?
You are asking a question based on a false premise. In fact it would be impossible to write four accounts that have so much corroberating and excepted detail that was even available during the lifetime of witnesses with their being written by witnesses. If you are suggesting they were made up, for one that's rediculous and second then why did Muhammad accepet at least the original revelations in the bible (book). However I don't wish to debate Muhammad until you are done with the bible.



No i haven't this is also accepted by many BIBLICAL SCHOLARS WHO ARE CHRISTIANS. I am not the one who is quoting specific individuals to make a claim i only support arguments that are hold by many. You probably do not understand what a variant is or what a orally variant is i will let you have some time to study the variants and the claim before actually refuting your whole message.
A variant is about the simpleist subject there is, and yes I know quite well what they are. You are right you are quoteing no one and no thing you are just asserting things and for some reason you think that is valid. Amazing.

So are you saying that in the earlier scriptures of Mark he is isn't describes more as a human-being then in the newer ones of Mark? We can clearly see in Mark he is lifted up more when we read the newer Scriptures of Mark, also in the older scriptures of Matthew and Luke its the same story and in the newer ones he is lifted up. Since John is the last one we can assume that the story is ''sexed'' up because there he is fully divined if you want me to give scriptural examples ask me.
The first three are so alike in character that people have even suggested they were written from the same source. Of course that is false but that shows how un evolutionary they are. They show no significant degree of evolution. John is quite different because that was his purpose and mission. However any evolutionary theory is just a guess. I am going to make one last in depth attempt to show you the bible is reliable but I am running out of room here and so will do it in another post. Please wait for that before you respond or we will get too far afield.

MY RESPONSE WILL BE A LITTLE LONG TO THIS. I APOLAGIZE FOR THE LEGNTH OF ALL THIS BUT YOU HAVE BEEN POSTING FAR MORE TOPICS THAN I CAN ADDRESS IN DEPTH SO I DECIDED TO COVER AT LEAST ONE IN A LITTLE DETAIL. DON'T WORRY ABOUT ADDRESSING EVERY POINT JUST THINK ON THESE THINGS WITH AN UNBIASED MIND AND LET ME KNOW WHAT YOU CONCLUDE. THANKS
 
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1robin

Christian/Baptist
Like i said i don't care about your dating since its accepted by most of the historians, biblical scholars and universities i rather belief them then you on this subject. The dates i gave are right the 60 A.D till 110 A.D is from Mark John has 80/90/150 A.D some even say they are dated back to 250 A.D but since i only follow the Majority i will stick to those. Ok let me ask a simpler question if 5% is not reliable then you agree that there are Corruptions, Interpolations and Influences in the scripture right and how is this reliable? So how can we say that only 5% is corrupted while the Time-Span is so big, some scriptures came 110Years after as you just stated above.
I will address all this stuff in the following.

You seem to believe your view is consistent with most scholars. Here is the view of the most respected online biblical resource there is:

The only firsthand testimony that we have about the life and teachings of Jesus comes from the four Gospels. Who were the people that wrote these books?
The authorship is credited to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. There are three basic reasons why we believe the men bearing their names wrote the four gospels.
1. There Is Unanimous Tradition As To The Authorship Of The Gospels
The four gospels are unanimously attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John - there are no other candidates. With works as important as the gospels it is unlikely that the original authors would have been forgotten. To quickly command acceptance from the people it had to have an author that was known.
2. Three Of The Four Authors Are Unlikely
The authors of our four gospels would not have been the obvious choices to write the accounts of the life of Christ. Only one of these four men (John) was a prominent character in the New Testament. Why attribute a book to the others if they were not the authors? The unanimous attestation of these unlikely authors is another strong reason for accepting the traditional view that they penned their respective gospels.
3. The Documents Were Identified By Tags
The early preservation of the name of the author is another consideration. It was a common literary practice during the time of Christ to preserve the name of the author of a written work. Scrolls with written text on both sides had tags glued to them (called a sittybos in Greek) that insured the preservation of the author's name. They were attached in such a way that a person could see who authored the scroll without unrolling it. This is similar to the function of the spine on our modern books - one does not have to open the book to find out who wrote it.
With four different written gospels circulating, there needed to be a way to distinguish them from each other. The term "gospel" would not be enough, seeing that there was more than one circulating. Therefore the church had to preserve the name of each gospel writer at an early date. The tag on the outside of the scroll would accomplish that purpose. It would read in Greek, "Gospel of Matthew" or "Gospel of Mark."
There Are No Variations In The Titles
The fact that this happened is clear in that there are no variations in the titles of the gospels. Every source is unanimous that Matthew wrote Matthew, Mark wrote Mark, Luke penned his gospel, and John wrote his.
These three reasons - the unanimous testimony of the church, the unlikely authorship of these men, and the early identification of the document, all present a strong case for the traditional authorship of the gospels.
Summary
Four separate works known as gospels have recorded the life of Christ for us. The traditional authorship is credited to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. There are three basic reasons why we believe the men bearing their names wrote the four gospels. The early church was unanimous in their testimony as to the individual authorship of each gospel. Apart from John, the writers of the various gospels were obscure figures. Why attribute these sacred writings to them if they did not compose them? There was also a tag that was glued on the outside of the scroll that would identify the individual author of the gospel. This made certain the name of the author was retained.
The evidence is clear and convincing. The traditional belief that Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John wrote the four gospels is the only view that fits the known facts.
Blue Letter Bible - Help, Tutorials, and FAQs

Here are some statements by the earliest and therefore the most reliable scholars on the issue:
"Irenaeus (ca. a.d. 180) continued Papias’s views about Matthew and Mark and added his belief that Luke, the follower of Paul, put down in a book the gospel preached by that apostle, and that John, the Beloved Disciple, published his Gospel while residing in Asia. By the time of Irenaeus, Acts was also linked with Luke, the companion of Paul."6
"At the earliest, Acts cannot have been written prior to the latest firm chronological marker recorded in the book—Festus’s appointment as procurator (24:27), which, on the basis of independent sources, appears to have occurred between A.D. 55 and 59."3
"It is increasingly admitted that the Logia [Q] was very early, before 50 A.D., and Mark likewise if Luke wrote the Acts while Paul was still alive. Luke's Gospel comes before the Acts (Acts 1:1). The date of Acts is still in dispute, but the early date (about A.D. 63) is gaining support constantly."4
When were the gospels written and by whom?|What are the dates and authors of the gospels? | Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry
When Peter learned of this, he neither directly forbade nor encouraged it. But, last of all, JOHN, perceiving that the external facts had been made plain in the Gospel, being urged by his friends, and inspired by the Spirit, composed a spiritual Gospel." This is the account of Clement. (Eusebius, Ecclesiastical History 6.14.5-7 - See: click here )). { Here Eusebias (the first church historian) states the real unbiased reason why John is different.}
The authorship of the Gospels of Matthew, Mark and Luke are not in dispute and confirmed by writing of early Church Fathers (bishops) {We can see that the earliest most reliable scholars universally agreed the Gospels were written by the apostles. Being far closer to the events their testimony has much more weight than later ones. This is true in any court in the world.}Who wrote the Gospels and When are the Gospels written


The standard scholarly dating, even in very liberal circles (i.e., those that reject Christianity) is:
  • Mark was written around 70 AD
  • Matthew and Luke were written around 80 AD
  • John was written around 90 AD
{Apparently most of the scholars don't agree with you.}
Who wrote the Gospels and When are the Gospels written
{anything in these squiggly bracket things is my comments}
Never fear there is plenty more coming.
 
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