the right religion

9Westy9 said:

and your comment shows your closed minded, arrogant point of view that is completely wrong. A person being tortured for my "sin" by an omnipotent, omniscient, benevolent being is barbaric and contradictory to his characteristics.

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idea said:

Yes, I consider myself a born-again Christian, as I was baptized by full immersion by an elder holding priesthood authority to perform the ordinance, as well as the laying on of hands to receive the holy Ghost. I think Baptists and Mormons agree on the need for baptism, and not just the sprinkling of an infant, but for "believer's baptism", or one in which the person being baptised is old enough to understand and choose the covenants they are making.

Thank you for recognizing that there are sincere Christians within our faith, I recognize the same for you.

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1robin said:

Once again you an invent an inaccurate position that you say I have adopted and then comment on it. Quit fighting paper tigers and actually deal with what I say not what you warp it into so you have a chance to rebut. I didn't say that picture is enjoyable to look at. It serves as a profound reminder of the price paid for us. It renews my bond and commitment to God. Of course in your bizarro world these I am sure are bad things. Since you can barely speak for yourself don't attempt to do so for me.

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Oryonder said:

Lutheran .. what difference does it make ?[/quite] It makes a big difference if you are a Catholic. It makes an infinate difference if you are not born again. Since you refuse to answer that question. I will say this; If you are not born again, you do not have the holy spirit, if you do not have the spirit you cannot possibly fully understand scripture. I did not say that you weren't just pointed out the reasons for asking. However your position certainly is not consistent with Luther's.

Your quite amazing ... you completely ignored the passages give a crystal clear picture of who gets saved and who doesnt.

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Have faith be born again and get in. That is exactly what he told Nicodemus.

Let's revisit.

Matt 5: Sermon on the mount.

And from Matt 25

31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.</SPAN> 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.</SPAN> 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.</SPAN>
34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.</SPAN> 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,</SPAN> 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’</SPAN>
37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?</SPAN> 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?</SPAN> 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’</SPAN>
40“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’</SPAN>
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.</SPAN> 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,</SPAN> 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’</SPAN>
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’</SPAN>
45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’</SPAN>
46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life"

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I guess you think these scriptures say to do these things so you will be saved. Well how many times? Everytime, one time, how could I ever know if it was enough? How could anyone give up their life in Martyrdom for the sake of faith when under your system no one has the assurance of salvation. How can anyone have the gall to believe they gave enough drinks of water or food to EARN heaven. When does salvation occur, the first work, second, fiftieth? How many good deeds did the thief on the cross do? Your system is impossible. Jesus is speaking about the works that true faith produces.
We are not to suppose that acts of bounty will entitle to eternal happiness. Good works done for God's sake, through Jesus Christ, are here noticed as marking the character of believers made holy by the Spirit of Christ, and as the effects of grace bestowed on those who do them. The wicked in this world were often called to come to Christ for life and rest, but they turned from his calls; and justly are those bid to depart from Christ, that would not come to him. Condemned sinners will in vain offer excuses. The punishment of the wicked will be an everlasting punishment; their state cannot be altered. Thus life and death, good and evil, the blessing and the curse, are set before us, that we may choose our way, and as our way so shall our end be.
Matthew 25 - Matthew Henry&rsquo;s Commentary - Bible Commentary
With this obvious understanding then the bible is harmonious. There is no need to dream up excuses to dismiss Paul, John, etc.....

You can not take anymore of what?? Scripture that contradicts Paul and John ?

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No, your missunderstanding of the verses you post.

I have already granted that Paul and John preach "salvation by faith/grace" ... Why on earth do you continue posting passages from these ? To convince yourself ?

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Because I reject your dismissal of them and except God's inclusion of them. You have to believe that God allowed the majority of his new testament to be false. My view confirms his sovereignty and is consistent with the vast majority of theological scholarship.

I am already convinced that this is what they preached..

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Which is why you must invent reasons to dismiss them.

Your post from Mark does not help your case .. Belief in the Gospel = believe in the message of Jesus = believe in works.

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I reject your assertion.

I agree .. and always have agreed that there are passages in John which claim that Jesus spoke about salvation only through faith so there is no need to repost these passages in order to convince me.

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I will not reject or dismiss what God has not.

The best you can get to then is that the Jesus of "John" contradicts the Jesus of "Matt".

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Nope it contradicts your incorrect interpretation of Matt. My view retains the harmony of God's word, yours butchers the bible and denies God's soverignty.

You rant on about my theology being wrong but you have not addressed the clear and specific teachings in the words of Jesus from Matt 5 and Matt 25, nor the teachings of James.

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Try to give only a few scriptures you want cleared up at a time. I have only short periods of time to post and so have to keep putting off long ones.

What do you think Jesus means in Matt 25 .. when he separates the sheep from the goats ?

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That he seperates the unsaved, and excepts the saved who will have shown their salvation in good works. What exactly is the pupose of Christ's death in your theology? We can or cannot follow the law with or without the crucifixion.

Really . .what is your answer .. how does Jesus separate the Sheep from the Goats ?

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The bible specifically says those whos names are written in the lambs book of life will be the Sheep. Your name is written in the book when you accept him as savior through faith and are born again just like the thief on the cross.

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In fact it says in Genesis that even before the beginning Jesus chose to suffer on out behalf.

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What do you think Jesus means in Matt 25 .. when he separates the sheep from the goats ?

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Oryonder said:

I did not say Dates were unimportant ?



Nope .. I agree with Christ. The other apostles did not accept Pauls "salvation by faith" teaching. They were Jews and believed in the Law.



Jesus then goes on to elucidate further on what he means by righteousness .. he talks about the law and not one word about faith.

Later in Matt 15 Jesus talks about what makes one unclean.

16“Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked them. 17“Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body?</SPAN> 18But the things that come out of the mouth come from the heart, and these make a man ‘unclean.’</SPAN> 19For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander.</SPAN> 20These are what make a man ‘unclean’; but eating with unwashed hands does not make him ‘unclean."
No mention of Faith making one clean before God but more talk of works.

Matt 18 .. The Father's favor based on works

"Then the master called the servant in. ‘You wicked servant,’ he said, ‘I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to.</SPAN> 33Shouldn’t you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?’</SPAN> 34In anger his master turned him over to the jailers to be tortured, until he should pay back all he owed.</SPAN>
35“This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart.”</SPAN>

Matt 23: More comments on obedience to the Law

"23Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness"

Then we have a specific instance of Jesus telling you exactly what is required for salvation and what righteousness is.

Matt 25

31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.</SPAN> 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.</SPAN> 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.</SPAN>
34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.</SPAN> 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,</SPAN> 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’</SPAN>
37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?</SPAN> 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?</SPAN> 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’</SPAN>
40“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’</SPAN>
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.</SPAN> 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,</SPAN> 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’</SPAN>
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’</SPAN>
45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’</SPAN>
46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”</SPAN>

Here Jesus is talking specifically about what righteousness is and who will gain eternal life.

Zero about faith ... all about deeds.



Im sure you can find 50 apologists making up all kinds of excuses. None however are satisfactory in light of the words spoken by Jesus.

James had it right .. Paul has it wrong.

Give any one of these commentaries you speak of and they will fail the words of Jesus in scripture given above.

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1robin said:

Why is it that whenever you find a passage in the Bible that you do not like you dismiss it and start chanting dogma ? This is very frustrating.

Even if you could support the above claim (and the Bible does not specifically say that those who are born again are the ones with their names written into the book of life) that is not the passage we are talking about ?!

The Bible passage in question is Matt 25.

And from Matt 25

31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.</SPAN> 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.</SPAN> 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.</SPAN>
34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.</SPAN> 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,</SPAN> 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’</SPAN>
37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?</SPAN> 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?</SPAN> 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’</SPAN>
40“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’</SPAN>
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.</SPAN> 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,</SPAN> 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’</SPAN>
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’</SPAN>
45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’</SPAN>
46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life"

In the passage above from Matt 25, how does Jesus separate the Sheep from the Goats

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In the passage above from Matt 25, how does Jesus separate the Sheep from the Goats

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waitasec said:

you said i was wrong for not appreciating torture.
no you are wrong. really wrong. just think, why would that satisfy your god?
seriously, it's barbaric and a tell tale sign of it's superstitious human origins.

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sojourner said:

Jesus is never mentioned in Genesis.

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sojourner said:

Why are you all wasting so much bandwidth gatekeeping; checking IDs at the door? Isn't that God's job? God will save whom God will save.

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sojourner said:

Yikes! Surrously? I mean ... surrously? I'm stunned. This is one of the most abysmal interpretations I've ever seen.

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Oryonder said:

Why is it that whenever you find a passage in the Bible that you do not like you dismiss it and start chanting dogma ? This is very frustrating.

Even if you could support the above claim (and the Bible does not specifically say that those who are born again are the ones with their names written into the book of life) that is not the passage we are talking about ?!

The Bible passage in question is Matt 25.

And from Matt 25

31“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory.</SPAN> 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.</SPAN> 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.</SPAN>
34“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.</SPAN> 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,</SPAN> 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’</SPAN>
37“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?</SPAN> 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?</SPAN> 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’</SPAN>
40“The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’</SPAN>
41“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.</SPAN> 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,</SPAN> 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’</SPAN>
44“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’</SPAN>
45“He will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’</SPAN>
46“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life"

In the passage above from Matt 25, how does Jesus separate the Sheep from the Goats

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sojourner said:

The real question is: How are we to separate the sheep from the goats?

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1robin said:

The concept of someones willingness to sacrifice themselves for the good of others is a very highly praised concept throught the world regardless of your attempts to warp it into something that allows your dissbelief. Your incapacity to evaluate God's reasons, nature, and values is only exceeded by your egotism that compels you to do it anyway. If it's source is man made superstition. How come it is virtually a unique concept and the book where it is found condemns superstition?

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1robin said:

Yes he is. He is referred to by other titles than Jesus just like God. Christ, Messiah, Logos, Spirit of the lord, etc..... It says in Genesis that the logos existed. I will howeveradmit that I do not think the source I mentioned for the point I made was correct. It is actually in the new testament where his choosing us before the foundation of the world is mentioned. So it was decided before Genesis, and Christ as the word is in Genesis, but the source for my point was not Genesis but the new testament. Point taken. However the source was not the point it was the time that it was decided.

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waitasec said:

with in the context of jesus, it's barbaric and very unnecessary.

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waitasec said:

that is the funniest thing i've heard all morning...

talk about over compensating for lack of evidence



please don't stop...this is really entertaining.

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