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Which prophets do Baha'I's recognize?

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
As to the appropriateness of discussion of Shi'ih Islam in Baha`i terms, you are aware that the Baha`i Faith came out of a Shi'ih culture, are you not? And that the Bab's original claim was to be the "Gate" of revelation, representing the 12th Imam. He later declared Himself to be the Qa'im taking the name "Dikhr'u'llah" or Remembrance of God, and finally took the title of Nuqta "Primal Point" a reference to the diacritical mark over the first letter of the Qur'an.

One cannot historically discuss Christianity without discussing ROme and Judaism. One cannot discuss the Baha`i Faith without discussing Shi'ih Islam.

Regards,
Scott
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Popeyesays said:
As to the appropriateness of discussion of Shi'ih Islam in Baha`i terms, you are aware that the Baha`i Faith came out of a Shi'ih culture, are you not? And that the Bab's original claim was to be the "Gate" of revelation, representing the 12th Imam. He later declared Himself to be the Qa'im taking the name "Dikhr'u'llah" or Remembrance of God, and finally took the title of Nuqta "Primal Point" a reference to the diacritical mark over the first letter of the Qur'an.

One cannot historically discuss Christianity without discussing ROme and Judaism. One cannot discuss the Baha`i Faith without discussing Shi'ih Islam.

Regards,
Scott
Sorry for my poor information about Baha'i. I didn't know that there was a relationship between Shi'ih and Baha'i.

BTW, now the conclusion from what i understood from our discustion is that the only source Baha'i do have to proof the prophethood for al-Bab is coming from a khatam and khatim thing?
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
The Truth said:
Sorry for my poor information about Baha'i. I didn't know that there was a relationship between Shi'ih and Baha'i.

BTW, now the conclusion from what i understood from our discustion is that the only source Baha'i do have to proof the prophethood for al-Bab is coming from a khatam and khatim thing?
No. You'd have to do some reading, I suppose.

A Traveller's Narrative, written by Abdu'l Baha Abbas about 1890 and translated by Sir Edward Granville Browne
The Dawnbreakers, written by Nabil'i Azam, translated by Shoghi Effendi Rabbani
The Bab, Herald of the Day of Days, by H.M. Balyuzi (also author of Muhammed and the Course of Islam)

One can get all three of these books digitally at no charge from http://www.bahai-education.org/ocean/ This is the Ocean Free software Library of the World's Religious Library. It includes thewritings of Baha`i, Christian, Muslim, Zoroastrian, Buddhist, Hindu, Taoist, Judaic faiths. Its fully word searchable. It has, for instance, the Rodman, Pickthall, Yusuf Ali, Sale translations of the Qur'an, and the full Bukhari hadiths, as well as Rumi's poetry in the section for Islam.

On line resources include:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bab *
http://www.bahai.org/article-1-3-0-1.html
http://www.uga.edu/~bahai/bab.shtml *
http://www.safnet.com/bahai/mag/babi.html
http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/5749/bab.html

Those marked "*" are from non-Baha`i sources but are essentially correct.

Regards,
Scott
 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
Popeyesays said:
Khaatam, khatim - noun and verb?

Does Arabic have a gerund form? March is a verb. Marcher is a noun, but marching is both verb and noun (gerund form). For example: " march", "I am a marcher", "I marching", "Marching shows precision". All are grammatically correct. Surely Arabic has the gerund form of the verb which converts it to a noun.

Regards,
Scott
I think you'll find that the use of the present/imperfect participle does not make it a noun. I presume that this is the 'gerund' linguistic construct of which you speak. It would be a verb (or part of, as in english verbs can be constructed from more than one word) that functions as a noun. It however does not become a noun. To strike an analogy, a fork and a spoon may share functions, yet they remain fork and spoon. Sorry to be pedantic.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Nehustan said:
I think you'll find that the use of the present/imperfect participle does not make it a noun. I presume that this is the 'gerund' linguistic construct of which you speak. It would be a verb (or part of, as in english verbs can be constructed from more than one word) that functions as a noun. It however does not become a noun. To strike an analogy, a fork and a spoon may share functions, yet they remain fork and spoon. Sorry to be pedantic.
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. See definition in red.

Main Entry: ger·und
Pronunciation: 'jer-&nd
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin gerundium, from Latin gerundus, gerundive of gerere to bear, carry on
1 : a verbal noun in Latin that expresses generalized or uncompleted action
2 : any of several linguistic forms analogous to the Latin gerund in languages other than Latin; especially : the English verbal noun in -ing that has the function of a substantive and at the same time shows the verbal features of tense, voice, and capacity to take adverbial qualifiers and to govern objects

Regards,

Scott
 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
Lloyd said:
Nonetheless, I understand why he doesn't quite meet the criteria to be a manifestation of God.
This is surely the point at which Islam is clear and at which there will be an obvious division between Baha'i and Islam.

This rests on the concept of Tawheed, and seeing that the issue of seal rings has come up, let us put aside the concept of the seal of the prophets for a moment. I am directly asking the Baha'is here to demonstrate they have read and understood the message of Muhammad in light of Llyod's quote above, and explain to me from an Islamic perspective, and using the analogy of a ring, why the concept of 'manifestation of God' is quite plainly shirk?

If you can do this, I will have ultimate respect for your scholastic research, but will ponder why you then commit shirk?
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=295325#post295325

"
CHAPTER V:

MUHAMMAD: THE SEAL OF THE PROPHETS


Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Apostle of God, and the seal of the prophets: and God knoweth all things.
(Surih XXXIII, "The Confederates", v. 40) [33:40]​
According to the Qur'an, and as reaffirmed in the Writings of Baha'u'llah, Muhammad was both a Prophet and an Apostle of God, and designated as the "Seal of the Prophets". It is the interpretation of this last title which often constitutes a barrier to an appreciation or acceptance of the Baha'i Faith on the part of Muslims, for it is understood as denying the possibility of the appearance of any further Manifestation of God after Muhammad Himself. By considering the distinction that must be made between "Prophet" and "Apostle" of God, a different interpretation of the title "Seal of the Prophets" becomes apparent. The origin of the word "prophet" in Arabic is "nab)" which means "foreteller" and corresponds to the Hebrew word for "foreseer". In the Old and New Testaments, the manner of foreseeing the future is in the form of visions and dreams. Joseph had a vision, Daniel prophesied and St. John had revelations. Mirza Abu'l-Fadl explains this theme very clearly in The Baha'i Proofs.1 The term "Prophet" thus became the name given to One Who is inspired by God and consequently became applicable to all the Manifestations of God.



  1. Mirza Abu'l-Fadl's discussion of prophecies is found on pp. 198-214 of The Baha'i Proofs.


page 35
And there arose not a prophet since in Israel like unto Moses ...
(Deuteronomy 34:10)

They say unto the blind man again, what sayeth thou of him, that he hath opened shine eyes? He said, He is a prophet.
(St. John 9:17)

For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet hath no honor in his own country.
(St. John 4:44)​
The Qur'an, however, attributes more distinct and precise stations and roles to a Prophet and to an Apostle of God. In the Bible, Moses and Jesus are called Prophets, but in the Qur'an, Moses and Jesus are also referred to as Apostles of God, while Aaron is designated a Prophet:
And commemorate Moses in "the Book;" for he was a man of purity: moreover he was an Apostle, a Prophet:

From the right side of the mountain we called to him, and caused him to draw nigh to us for secret converse:

And we bestowed on him in our mercy his brother Aaron, a Prophet.
(Surih XIX "Mary", vv. 52-54) [19:52-54]

And when I revealed unto the Apostles, "Believe on me and on my Sent One, " they said, "We believe; and bear thou witness that we are Muslims. "
(Surih V: "The Table", v. 111) [5:111]​
Moses, therefore, was identified by God to be an Apostle and a Prophet simultaneously: an Apostle because the Torah was revealed to Him and because a new law was established; and a Prophet because He Himself followed, promoted and protected that very law during His lifetime. As for Aaron, He was a Prophet with the main task of following the law and protecting the Faith established by Moses.


page 36

This is the distinction made between an Apostle of God and a Prophet of God, as found in the Qur'an. The argument that because Muhammad was the "Seal of the Prophets" and as all Apostles were also Prophets, there shall therefore be no Manifestations of God after Muhammad, is one that has no basis in either the Qur'an or the traditions.

In order to leave no room for doubt concerning this matter, Muhammad explained very clearly in one of His traditions, recorded in the Qastallani Comments of the Bukhari:

The children of Israel were governed by Prophets. Whenever a Prophet passed away, another succeeded Him. But there shall be no Prophets to succeed Me; rather there will be Caliphs (or Imams).​
In another tradition, the Prophet further explains the station of the Caliphs or Imams Who will follow Him, designating them as "'ulama" or "learned", thus:
Verily the 'Ulama of My people are more exalted than the Prophets of the children of Israel.​
In this connection, the reverence with which Baha'u'llah made mention of the Imam Husayn should be recalled.2



  1. Baha'u'llah has revealed a Tablet of Visitation in honor of Imam Husayn, in which He praises him in glowing language, and in the Kitab-i-Iqan, the Imam's spiritual sovereignty is lauded. His virtues are also extolled in the Suriy-i-Muluk. Described in the Baha'i writings as the "most eminent among the lawful successors of the Prophet of Islam", referred to as the "Chief of Martyrs" and "Prince of Martyrs", as well as the "brightest 'star' shining in the 'crown' mentioned in the Revelation of St. John", the Imam Husayn's position is considered unique, as Baha'u'llah has identified Himself as his return to the Shi'ih Muslims.


page 37

The difference between "Apostle" and "Prophet" is further maintained in Islamic jurisprudence Imam Shaf'i stated:

We should believe in the Prophets and the Apostles of God, each and all. The distinction characterizing the two categories lies in this: that the Apostle of God is He Who brings the law, while the Prophets are reared under the law brought by the Apostles of God. Hence each Apostle is simultaneously a Prophet, whereas a Prophet is not endued with the same characteristics of the Apostle.​
In his commentary on verse 51 of the Surih of the Pilgrimage (XXII) [22], Al Nasafi records an interesting tradition, as well as an interesting explanation on the subject of Apostleship and Prophethood. The verse reads as follows:
We have not sent any apostle or prophet before thee, among whose desires Satan injected not some wrong desire, but God shall bring to nought that which Satan had suggested Thus shall God affirm His revelations for God is Knowing, Wise! (Surih XXII, "The Pilgrimage" v. 51) [22:51]​
And Al Nasafi comments:
And this is evident proof of the established difference between an Apostle and a Prophet contrary to what they say that they are the same. When the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon Him, was asked as to how many Prophets were there, He answered: "Hundred and twenty four thousand." They again asked as to how many of them were Apostles; and He answered: "Three hundred and thirteen, plenty!" The difference between them is that the Apostle is One Who brings a Book in addition to the miracle with which He is supported. As to the Prophet, He does not bring Book, but rather follows and promotes the then existing Law. It is also said that an Apostle is the Founder of the Law, whereas the Prophet is the Promulgator and Guardian of that Law.​

page 38

From the above quotations, it becomes evident that the "sealing" of Prophethood was intended primarily to announce a change in the administrative structure of the future Muslim community, as compared to the system that was in practice within the Jewish community during the period between the ministry of His Holiness Moses and the appearance of Jesus Christ.3 Nowhere in the Qur'an or in the traditions of the Prophet Muhammad is there mention of the "sealing" of Apostleship, precluding further Divine Revelation. Muhammad had no male children, and He adopted a young slave of Christian origin named Zayd Ibn Al-Harithih as His son, after freeing him from slavery and receiving his voluntary request to remain in the household of the Prophet. The Jews at the time, being highly opposed to the new Revelation, saw an unprecedented opportunity in Muhammad's adoption of a son as a means of sowing seeds of doubt concerning His Prophethood. They claimed, among other things, that because Muhammad knew the history of the children of Israel who were governed by



  1. In numerous passages of His Writings, Baha'u'llah refers to Muhammad as the "Seal of the Prophets". It is in the Kitab-i- Iqan, however, He unfolds the meaning of the title, which had hitherto obscured the understanding that the Prophetic Cycle would end with Muhammad's Dispensation and that the Era of Fulfilment would follow it. Baha'u'llah reveals that there is nothing more explicit in the Qur'an than Muhammad's promise, in clear verses, of "attainment unto the divine Presence" in the Person of His Manifestation and of the "Resurrection" which signified His rise. In keeping with this, He revealed in Epistle to the Son of the Wolf that "... on this day the blessed words 'Put He is the Apostle of God, and the Seal of the Prophets' have found their consummation in the verse 'The day when mankind shall stand before the Lord of the worlds'...". For further study see Kitab-i-Iqan pp. 166-7, 169-70 and 179; Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 114.


page 39

Prophets after the ascension of Moses, he intended to adopt and copy the same system. They concentrated their efforts on the event not only to defame Muhammad, but also to arouse the tribes, stir others against Him and uproot His Movement.

To refute their machinations, the verse "Muhammad is not the father of any man among you, but he is the Apostle of God" was revealed, followed by what was an affirmation that there would not be Prophet heirs in the Islamic Dispensation, i. e. that He was "the Seal of the Prophets". In this manner, God refuted the assumptions of the enemies of is Faith, causing their ill will to be turned against them."



Scott



 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
Popeyesays said:
I'm afraid I have to disagree with you. See definition in red.

Main Entry: ger·und
Pronunciation: 'jer-&nd
Function: noun
Etymology: Late Latin gerundium, from Latin gerundus, gerundive of gerere to bear, carry on
1 : a verbal noun in Latin that expresses generalized or uncompleted action
2 : any of several linguistic forms analogous to the Latin gerund in languages other than Latin; especially : the English verbal noun in -ing that has the function of a substantive and at the same time shows the verbal features of tense, voice, and capacity to take adverbial qualifiers and to govern objects

Regards,

Scott
Harvard Reference?
 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
Popeyesays said:
Merriam-Webster
That would make sense.

gerund, A form of the Lat. vb. capable of being construed as a n., but retaining the regimen of the vb. Hence applied to forms functionally equivalent in other langs., e.g. to the Eng. verbal noun in -ing when used rather as a part of the vb. than as a n.

1513LILLY Introd. Gram. (1549) Bijb, There be moreouer belongyng to the infinitiue mode of verbes certayn voyces called gerundes..whiche haue bothe the actyue and passiue significacion. 1591PERCIVALL Sp. Dict. Cjb, There is only one Gerund ending in do. 1668WILKINS Real Char. 446 Gerunds and Supines are unnecessary inflexions of Verbs, the notion of them being expressible by the Infinitive Mode, whose Cases they are. 1762LOWTH Eng. Gram. 111 The Participle with a Preposition before it, and still retaining its Government, answers to what is called in Latin the Gerund. 1826SYD. SMITH Wks. (1859) II. 100/1 He is driven to absolute despair by gerunds. 1872MORRIS Hist. Outl. Eng. Accid. xiii. 179 We usually abridge sentences containing the verbal substantive, so that it looks like a gerund.

participle Grammar. A non-finite part of a verb, used either in compound verb forms with an auxiliary verb expressing tense and voice, or as an adjective. Cf. participial adjective s.v. PARTICIPIAL a. 2.

a1398 J. TREVISA tr. Bartholomaeus Anglicus De Proprietatibus Rerum (BL Add.) f. 9v, Swiche nounes I-take wi
th.gif
preposiciouns, verbis, nounes, & participles [L. participiis] fals.
a1450 (a1397) Prol. Old Test. in Bible (Wycliffite, L.V.) (Harl.) I. 57 A participle of a present tens..mai be resoluid into a verbe of the same tens. 1530 J. PALSGRAVE Lesclarcissement 65 In the frenche tong be ix partes of speche, article,..verbe, participle, adverbe [etc.]. 1590 J. STOCKWOOD Eng. Accidence 16 There are three kinds of adiectiues, a noune adiectiue, a pronoune adiectiue, and a participle adiectiue. 1612 J. BRINSLEY Posing of Parts f. 21, How is a Participle declined? With Number, Case, and Gender; as a Noune Adjectiue. 1665 R. JOHNSON Scholars Guide 6 The Latine tongue loves Verbals, Participials, Gerundives, and Participles of the future in rus. 1681 J. FLAVEL Method of Grace i. 12 To whom coming as unto a living stone: the participle notes a continued motion. 1726 SWIFT Gulliver II. III. v. 75 The first Project was to shorten Discourse by cutting Polysyllables into one, and leaving out Verbs and Participles, because in reality all things imaginable are but Nouns. 1751 J. HARRIS Hermes I. x. 184 If we take away the Assertion, and thus destroy the Verb, there will remain the Attribute and the Time, which make the Essence of a Participle. 1796 F. LEIGHTON MS Let. to J. Boucher Feb., I heard yesterday from a Shropshire Farmer the old verb bren and its participle brent for burn burnt. 1813 T. JEFFERSON Let. 16 Aug. in Writings (1984) 1296 Every root among the Greeks was permitted to vary its termination, so as to express its radical idea in the form of any one of the parts of speech; to wit, as a noun, an adjective, a verb, participle, or adverb. 1866 C. P. MASON Eng. Gram. (ed. 2) 38 Participles are verbal adjectives, differing from ordinary adjectives in this, that the active participle can take a substantive after it as its object. 1910 Encycl. Brit. I. 65/2 The ‘Ablative Absolute,’..consists of a noun in the ablative case, with a participle, attribute or qualifying word agreeing with it. 1954 W. C. BOYD in H. Neurath & Bailey Proteins IIB. xxii. 789 It might be better to have a different word for these substances, and the present writer would like to propose the word lectin, from the Latin lectus, the past participle of legere. 1999 N.Y. Rev. Bks. 20 May 66/3 If we overlook..the frequent dangling participles and cringe-making exclamation points.

OED

to call it a verb that is also a noun is as I pointed out is not completely accurate. It is the participle, and remains a 'part' of the verb in English while being able to function 'as' a noun, you may not see the subtle difference, Like I said I'm being pedantic, and I can on occasion cut and paste :areyoucra

I have no doubt that academic 'laziness' has lead this construction to be called a 'noun'.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Nehustan said:
That would make sense.
I have no doubt that academic 'laziness' has lead this construction to be called a 'noun'.
As Sigmund would say: "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." (No cut and paste this time)

Regards,
Scott
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Thanks for the links you gave it to me Popey. Until now i don't understand how you can recognize a Baha'i "Rasol" even though he is not a "nabi". "Rasol" must be "nabi" and if he is not so we can't say that he is "Rasol" who came with a new law.

have a look at this verse:

3:85 "And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers"

what do you say about that?
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
The Truth said:
Thanks for the links you gave it to me Popey. Until now i don't understand how you can recognize a Baha'i "Rasol" even though he is not a "nabi". "Rasol" must be "nabi" and if he is not so we can't say that he is "Rasol" who came with a new law.

have a look at this verse:

3:85 "And whoever seeks a religion other than Islâm, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers"

what do you say about that?
Yet Abraham was a Muslim according to the Qur'an. And the religion of Abraham was proclaimed by Isaac and Joseph, Noah and Daniel, Moses and Jesus.
"They say, 'Be ye Jews or Christians so shall ye of Abraham be guided.' Say, 'Not so! but the faith of Abraham he was not of the idolaters.'
Say ye, 'We believe in God, and what has been revealed to us, and what has been revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Tribes, and what was brought to Moses and Jesus, and what was brought unto the Prophets from their Lord; we will not distinguish between any one of them, and unto Him are we resigned.'"
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 2 - The Heifer)

"Abraham was not a Jew, nor yet a Christian, but he was a 'Hanif resigned, and not of the idolaters. Verily, the people most worthy of Abraham are those who follow him and his prophets, and those who believe;- God is the patron of the believers."
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 3 - Imran's Family)

So, you see, the God of Abraham is the subject of worship in Islam, and He is the subject of worship in the Baha`i Faith. Therefore, I would propose that in the sense of Muhammed's words you quoted above, Baha`i's are also "Muslim".

Regards,
Scott
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Popeyesays said:
So, you see, the God of Abraham is the subject of worship in Islam, and He is the subject of worship in the Baha`i Faith. Therefore, I would propose that in the sense of Muhammed's words you quoted above, Baha`i's are also "Muslim".

Regards,
Scott
So, they are just a sect of Islam such as Suni, Sufi and Shi'i? because those sect don't recognize any "Rasol" after Mohammed and no religion except Islam.

BTW, it's not Mohammed's words but Allah's words.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
The Truth said:
So, they are just a sect of Islam such as Suni, Sufi and Shi'i? because those sect don't recognize any "Rasol" after Mohammed and no religion except Islam.
You're being disingenuous.

Was Abraham's religion a sect of Islam in the sense you mean? No. Was Christianity a sect of Islam in the sense you mean? No. But the religion of Abraham, Christ, Moses, Noah, Muhammed, Baha`u'llah, Zoroaster, and others is, in each case, "Submission". And those who "submit" to the will of God are Muslims, whether they may be Christians, Jews, Muslims, Baha`i's, Parsees, Noachides, Sabians, Sabaeans or what have you. All the faiths descended through Abraham are "Muslims" in the sense that they submit to the will of God. They do however, persist in failing to recognize that unity in most instances.

Baha`i's, on the other hand insist upon the unity of God's religion.

So Baha`i's are not a sect of Islam, or Christianity, or Judaism, or Zoroastrianism. It is an independent religion that says ALL of God's religions are from the self-same Source.

The independence of Baha`i has been recognized in Islamic courts in the Ottoman Empire, Egypt, Iraq and other nations with the exception of Iran, Saudi Arabia, and the rest of the Gulf states, and Afghanistan.

There have been millenialist divergences from Islam which have generally been re-absorbed into Islam as time passed. The Mahdists of the Sudan (1882-1900), the Ahmadiyyih sect shows indications of being re-absorbed. The Shaykhi movement broke in two in the middle of the nineteenth century. About a quarter of the Shaykhi sect became Babi and Baha`i and the other three-quarters scrambled about for half a century trying to remove their entanglements from the Bab and re-define themselves as fundamental muslims.

Just to make it clear: Baha`u'llah is an Apostle of God - co-equal with Muhammed, Jesus, Moses, Noah, Abraham, Zoroaster and others (some of Whom we no longer know Their name or the Book).

The Baha`i Faith is no more a sect of Islam than Christianity is, or Judaism - though all of those faiths acknowledge Abraham and the God of Abraham as the Source of Revelation.

Regards,
Scott
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Popeyesays said:
Say ye, 'We believe in God, and what has been revealed to us, and what has been revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the Tribes, and what was brought to Moses and Jesus, and what was brought unto the Prophets from their Lord; we will not distinguish between any one of them, and unto Him are we resigned.'"
(The Qur'an (E.H. Palmer tr), Sura 2 - The Heifer)
Does the verse said and the baha'i too??

What's the verse after the verse you just mentioned?

[85] If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).
 

TashaN

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Popeyesays said:
You're being disingenuous.
No honestly i'm not.


Was Abraham's religion a sect of Islam in the sense you mean? No. Was Christianity a sect of Islam in the sense you mean? No. But the religion of Abraham, Christ, Moses, Noah, Muhammed, Baha`u'llah, Zoroaster, and others is, in each case, "Submission".
Firstly, Baha' u'llah's name wasn't included in the verse.

Secondly, i proved to you in post # 36 from Hadith that there is no "RAsol" after Mohammed "PBUH".


And those who "submit" to the will of God are Muslims, whether they may be Christians, Jews, Muslims, Baha`i's, Parsees, Noachides, Sabians, Sabaeans or what have you.
That all except Baha'i was before Islam but not after and that wasn't for all those religions but for the people who "submit" only.

All the faiths descended through Abraham are "Muslims" in the sense that they submit to the will of God.
But they don't recognize Mohammed, They don't pray, they don't fast, they don't do hajj and they don't pay Zakat. Anyone who doesn't do so so he is not a muslims at all.


Baha`i's, on the other hand insist upon the unity of God's religion.
Only if they obey what Allah says in Quran and what Prophet Mohammed says.

So Baha`i's are not a sect of Islam, or Christianity, or Judaism, or Zoroastrianism. It is an independent religion that says ALL of God's religions are from the self-same Source.
[85] If anyone desires a religion other than Islam , never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).


Just to make it clear: Baha`u'llah is an Apostle of God - co-equal with Muhammed, Jesus, Moses, Noah, Abraham, Zoroaster and others (some of Whom we no longer know Their name or the Book).
That was in the past and no longer after Mohammed.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
The Truth said:
No honestly i'm not.
Okay, my apologies.



The Truth said:
Firstly, Baha' u'llah's name wasn't included in the verse.
And Muhammed's name is not mentioned in Torah, Injeel, Avestas or elsewhere before the Qur'an. Your point?

The Truth said:
Secondly, i proved to you in post # 36 from Hadith that there is no "RAsol" after Mohammed "PBUH".
You did not prove it to me. You ALLEGED it, but I do not agree.


The Truth said:
That all except Baha'i was before Islam but not after and that wasn't for all those religions but for the people who "submit" only.
"The Glory of God" is mentioned quite frequently in the Qur'an. "Baha'u'llah" means "The Glory of God". In Qur'ans published before the mid-nineteenth century the Arabic notation is in fact "Baha`u'llah". After the 1850's the Qur'ans were published with a different word that "Baha". I don't know why, but that is the case. To me SUBMISSION to the will of God is submission to the Manifestation of God for THIS day and age - Who is, in fact, Baha`u'llah. Now the way to God is not barred from those who believe otherwise, but they are in fact, "People of the Book" from my point of view rather than "those who submit".

The Truth said:
But they don't recognize Mohammed, They don't pray, they don't fast, they don't do hajj and they don't pay Zakat. Anyone who doesn't do so so he is not a muslims at all.
I am confused. Who are "they"? Christians, Jews, Parsees? Or Baha`i's? I can assure you Baha`i's have daily obligatory prayer, are required to make a hajj in their life if they have the health and the means and Baha`i's pay the Huquq under Baha`i rules.
As to Christians, Jews, Noachides, Zoroastrians they all have their own prayer requirements, and directions for contribution to the poor. Some may indeed participate in a hajj as well.


The Truth said:
Only if they obey what Allah says in Quran and what Prophet Mohammed says.

[85] If anyone desires a religion other than Islam , never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter he will be in the ranks of those who have lost (all spiritual good).


That was in the past and no longer after Mohammed.
The religion of God is Submission to the Will of God. Abraham was a submitter to the will of God, so was Moses, so was Jesus, etc. So, in this day is Baha`u'llah. al-Islam means submission. I would suggest that those people of the book are in fact submitting to the best of their understanding. Even Muhammed says they have nothing to fear on the last day.

I never agreed that "SEAL" means LAST. "Seal" means the warrantor of the truth of the Prophets before Him. Baha`u'llah also warrants the truth of the Prophets before Him including Muhammed. You are not required to agree, but please don't assume that I have agreed with you.

I've been Baha`i for more than thirty years. I would NEVER have come to my appreciation of Muhammed and Islam without the guidance my faith gives me.

Regards,
Scott
 

Nehustan

Well-Known Member
Popeyesays said:
As Sigmund would say: "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." (No cut and paste this time)

Regards,
Scott
Wasn't that Groucho Marx???? Or is he the guy that wrote the communist manifesto???? I don't know I seem to always mix up my Jews.
 

Popeyesays

Well-Known Member
Nehustan said:
Wasn't that Groucho Marx???? Or is he the guy that wrote the communist manifesto???? I don't know I seem to always mix up my Jews.
Well, Freud was an Austrian Jew. Groucho was an American Jew and Karl Marx was an expatriate German Jew. Why should there be a problem keeping them seperate?

Regards,
Scott
 
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