Is Christian Fundamentalism Essentially Intolerant?

NetDoc said:

What is the "average Christian"?

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I shouldn't have said "average." I should have said that Christians who follow the teachings of Christ are exceedingly uncommon, especially among the clergy.

NetDoc said:

What is the "average Christian"? What are this Christian's goals? Are they like an average American? Do you set the standard of patriotism by the slugs who won't do a THING to help this country? Are all Americans like the KKK?

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I'm no more impressed by patriotism than I am by Christianity. Why make a virtue out of pretending that one's own country is superior to all others?

NetDoc said:

I assume nothing. Christianity has proven to be true.

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Proven? No, Christianity is believed by many to be true, but it certainly hasn't proven to be true.

NetDoc said:

Then we disagree and I find your propensity to over generalize rather alarming.

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How is my belief that Christianity is not good any more of an over generalization than your belief that it is?

NetDoc said:

I don't have to: Jesus did that for us.

Matthew 7:13 "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. 14 But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'NIV

and...

Matthew 25:31 "When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.


34 "Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37 "Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?' 40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' NIV

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But he says nothing here about Christians. You identify Christianity with the teachings of Jesus. You're entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. It seems to me that Christianity, as organized in its churches, can usually be characterized as the systematic negation of the teachings of Jesus.

MidnightBlue said:

I shouldn't have said "average." I should have said that Christians who follow the teachings of Christ are exceedingly uncommon, especially among the clergy.

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ALthough, I would not put any emphasis on "clergy", we are in COMPLETE agreement here: Frubals on your head!

MidnightBlue said:

I'm no more impressed by patriotism than I am by Christianity. Why make a virtue out of pretending that one's own country is superior to all others?

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Love of country should never be confused with jingoistic nationalism as displayed by many conservatives and liberals alike. The TRUE patriot serves their country whenever they can. They volunteer to work with our kids, they actively campaign for peace, they expose bigotry and any other wrongs that exist right here in America. They might wear a flag on their shoulder, but far more importantly, they are hard at work making this place a bit better.

MidnightBlue said:

Proven? No, Christianity is believed by many to be true, but it certainly hasn't proven to be true.

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As I said: our perspectives and so our conclusions differ. Jesus is more real to me than you are.

MidnightBlue said:

How is my belief that Christianity is not good any more of an over generalization than your belief that it is?

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You did more than this: you have equated the KKK with all of Christendom. That would be like me equating all of atheism with Stalin, or Communism. Think about it.

MidnightBlue said:

But he says nothing here about Christians. You identify Christianity with the teachings of Jesus. You're entitled to your opinion, but I disagree. It seems to me that Christianity, as organized in its churches, can usually be characterized as the systematic negation of the teachings of Jesus.

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You know, if we look at a 10 year old car; say one that had not been kept in repair, we are going to have a FAR DIFFERENT opinion of it than when it was new and rolled off of the showroom floor. You want to hold up the broken down car as how things seem to be, while I want to hold up the prototype: how it is really MEANT to be. This is the meat and potatoes of what the Restoration movement is all about: restoring Christianity to Christianity. Jesus boiled it down to two laws: Love God and Love Everyone Else. If you see a church that misses this mark, they need a spiritual overhaul. Me? I am always struggling with implementing those two ideals. But I honestly try.

NetDoc said:

Love of country should never be confused with jingoistic nationalism as displayed by many conservatives and liberals alike. The TRUE patriot serves their country whenever they can. They volunteer to work with our kids, they actively campaign for peace, they expose bigotry and any other wrongs that exist right here in America. They might wear a flag on their shoulder, but far more importantly, they are hard at work making this place a bit better.

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But why is it virtuous to serve one's country, as distinct from serving God or one's fellow man?

NetDoc said:

As I said: our perspectives and so our conclusions differ. Jesus is more real to me than you are.

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I'm guessing what you mean is that Jesus is more meaningful to you than I am. Or are you uncertain that I exist? I'm pretty sure I do.
:woohoo:

But again, you're associating Christianity with Jesus. My remarks weren't directed toward Jesus. I try to follow the teachings of Jesus. I'm just not convinced that Christianity has much, if anything, to do with Jesus or his teachings.

NetDoc said:

You did more than this: you have equated the KKK with all of Christendom. That would be like me equating all of atheism with Stalin, or Communism. Think about it.

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No, I didn't equate the KKK with all of Christendom, any more than I equated the Roman Catholic Church or the Southern Baptist Convention with all of Christendom. I just said that the KKK is a Christian organization. There's no doubt at all that the KKK affirms Christianity exactly as it's affirmed by many fundamentalists and evangelicals. They behave in a hateful manner, but so do many other Christians and Christian organizations. On what basis can we really say that they are not Christians?

NetDoc said:

You know, if we look at a 10 year old car; say one that had not been kept in repair, we are going to have a FAR DIFFERENT opinion of it than when it was new and rolled off of the showroom floor. You want to hold up the broken down car as how things seem to be, while I want to hold up the prototype: how it is really MEANT to be.

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Exactly right. I'm noticing what actually exists; you're imagining what you think ought to exist, but doesn't.

NetDoc said:

This is the meat and potatoes of what the Restoration movement is all about: restoring Christianity to Christianity. Jesus boiled it down to two laws: Love God and Love Everyone Else. If you see a church that misses this mark, they need a spiritual overhaul.

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I've never seen a church that didn't directly oppose those two laws. Whenever I've found an organization that honored the teachings of Jesus, was inclusive of all people, and opposed violence, bigotry and hatred, that organization was something other than a church.

NetDoc said:

Me? I am always struggling with implementing those two ideals. But I honestly try.

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I try, too. But I'm no longer convinced that Christianity or membership in a church is consistent with that effort.

Great discussion guys... Just my take -- the problem lies in the labels you are using... I agree that we should follow the teachings of Jesus... I call this being a Christian... To say that someone IS a Christian but doesn't follow the teaching of Christ is not accurate... One can't do both... One of you gave several examples of churches that claim to follow Christ and call themselves Christian, but in fact, act contrary to the principles that Christ taught... The difference for me is if that person continues to defend the behavior, then I don't call them a Christian any longer, but a so-called Christian (as in not a Christian at all)... I don't instead say, "Well, I know a Christian who thinks it's okay to murder, rape, and pillage and therefore Christians are not good..." Again, that is not accurate. Instead what you know is a person who has no idea what it means to be a Christian and has not 'earned the right' to carry the title but goes around calling themselves a Christian...

RagnarGalt said:

Great discussion guys... Just my take -- the problem lies in the labels you are using... I agree that we should follow the teachings of Jesus... I call this being a Christian... To say that someone IS a Christian but doesn't follow the teaching of Christ is not accurate... One can't do both... One of you gave several examples of churches that claim to follow Christ and call themselves Christian, but in fact, act contrary to the principles that Christ taught... The difference for me is if that person continues to defend the behavior, then I don't call them a Christian any longer, but a so-called Christian (as in not a Christian at all)...

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Where, then, are the Christians?

I know of Christian churches that require their members to believe certain things, either a creed, or a particular interpretation of scripture, or the authority of an apostle, a bishop, a Pope, a Synod, or a series of councils. I know of Christian churches that teach that we must accept Jesus as our personal savior (a concept that is not found in the teachings of Jesus or anywhere in Christian scripture). I know of Christian churches that teach that we must be baptized and receive the sacraments. I know of Christian churches that teach that we must obey ecclesiastical authorities. I don't know of any Christian church that teaches that we must obey the teachings of Jesus.

Jesus teaches us to treat others as we would like to be treated. Can we conclude, then, that those who advocate the death penalty, or going to war, or torture -- including GW Bush and almost all of the Religious Right and many other Christians as well -- are not Christians? Can we conclude that Concerned Women for America and other Christian groups that deny the rights of women are not Christians? Can we conclude that those who have associated themselves with the Republican Party, encouraging big business to do away with pension plans and any other sense of responsibility or decency toward their workers, are not Christians? Can we conclude that those who oppose giving homosexuals the same civil rights as heterosexuals, including the President, the Pope and almost every Christian church, organization, and leader, are not Christians?

Jesus teaches us not to lay up treasures on earth. Can we conclude that those who amass earthly wealth and possessions are not Christians?

Jesus tells us to take no thought for the morrow. Can we conclude that those who make plans for the future and those who carry insurance policies are not Christians?

Jesus tells us to beware of false prophets. Can we conclude that those who follow Pat Robertson, Jan Crouch, Hal Lindsey, and a host of other false prophets, are not Christians?

Jesus tells us to swear not at all. Can we conclude that those who make vows and pledges are not Christians?

Jesus denigrated family allegiances and clearly implied that it is better not to be married. Can we conclude that those who speak about the sanctity of marriage are not Christians?

I don't deny that there are individual Christians who try to follow the teachings of Christ, but they seem to be exceedingly rare, and I don't know of any Christian denomination that does not either directly oppose some aspect of the teachings of Christ or allow its individual congregations to do so.

The fact is that Christian churches and Christian leaders almost without exception take stands that are directly contrary to the teachings of Christ, and furthermore they condemn those who disagree with them.

If only those who follow the teachings of Jesus are Christians, then where are the Christians? Where are the Christian churches? Where are the Christian leaders?

You have defined Christianity out of existence. It makes more sense to me to acknowledge that Christianity is largely indifferent to the real Jesus and his teachings, and is attached rather to an idea of Jesus that is little more than the embodiment of its own preferences, prejudices, and selfish impulses.

MidnightBlue said:

Where, then, are the Christians?

I don't know of any Christian church that teaches that we must obey the teachings of Jesus.

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The churches of Christ.

MidnightBlue said:

Jesus teaches us to treat others as we would like to be treated.

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Actually, Jesus taught us to love even as he loved us.

MidnightBlue said:

Can we conclude, then, that those who advocate the death penalty, or going to war, or torture -- including GW Bush and almost all of the Religious Right and many other Christians as well -- are not Christians? Can we conclude that Concerned Women for America and other Christian groups that deny the rights of women are not Christians? Can we conclude that those who have associated themselves with the Republican Party, encouraging big business to do away with pension plans and any other sense of responsibility or decency toward their workers, are not Christians? Can we conclude that those who oppose giving homosexuals the same civil rights as heterosexuals, including the President, the Pope and almost every Christian church, organization, and leader, are not Christians?

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Matthew 7:15 "Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!' NIV

Just for the record: Jesus told us to be fruit inspectors.

MidnightBlue said:

Jesus teaches us not to lay up treasures on earth. Can we conclude that those who amass earthly wealth and possessions are not Christians?

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Where you heart is, there your treasure is also. It's a matter of the heart, not a matter of coins.

MidnightBlue said:

Jesus tells us to take no thought for the morrow. Can we conclude that those who make plans for the future and those who carry insurance policies are not Christians?

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Actually, he tells us not to "worry"

Matthew 6:25 "Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? NIV

We could on an on, but you repeat yourself.

NetDoc said:

The churches of Christ.

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I was baptized in a Church of Christ in 1975. They taught that you must obey, all right, but what they chiefly meant was that you must be baptized. They certainly didn't meet that "do unto others" qualification. The ones I knew did not oppose war or the death penalty, and certainly did not believe in equal rights for homosexuals.

NetDoc said:

Actually, Jesus taught us to love even as he loved us.

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Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

NetDoc said:

Where you heart is, there your treasure is also. It's a matter of the heart, not a matter of coins.

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Jesus said not to lay up treasure on earth. He didn't say to lay up treasure but not to care about it.

We learn fromthe scriptures that NO ONE is perfect. So if a perfect life is your definition of a Christian, then only Jesus qualifies.

The scriptures also teach that we are being transformed into the likeness of God. Ephesians makes the point that if we are growing in that grace then that is enough.

As for the church of Christ and war: well I am having an issue with that right now.

Revelations teaches us that NO CHURCH is perfect: they all have issues.

NetDoc said:

We learn fromthe scriptures that NO ONE is perfect. So if a perfect life is your definition of a Christian, then only Jesus qualifies.

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That's definitely not my definition of a Christian.
I have no reason to believe that the Pope, Pat Robertson, GW Bush, and Benny Hinn are not Christians. You and others have suggested that a Christian is a person who follows the teachings of Christ. A person who unwaveringly followed those teachings would be perfect. So what are you really saying? That a Christian is one who follows some of the teachings of Christ some of the time? Which teachings? How often?

NetDoc said:

Revelations teaches us that NO CHURCH is perfect: they all have issues.

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The Revelation has no quarrel at all with the church in Philadelphia.

I think we are W-A-Y off topic for this thread. Suffice it to say, that Christians should at the very least hold onto the two most important commandments: Love God and Love Everyone Else. Straying from these two would exclude you outright.

NetDoc said:

I think we are W-A-Y off topic for this thread. Suffice it to say, that Christians should at the very least hold onto the two most important commandments: Love God and Love Everyone Else. Straying from these two would exclude you outright.

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Oh.hmmmmm *rubs his eyes* yes quite..........

NetDoc said:

I think we are W-A-Y off topic for this thread. Suffice it to say, that Christians should at the very least hold onto the two most important commandments: Love God and Love Everyone Else. Straying from these two would exclude you outright.

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As a gay man, I am daily on the receiving end of the hatred of Christians. The vast majority of the people working to make sure I don't have the same civil rights as you do are Christians. There are Christian ministers who seriously believe and teach that I should be stoned -- and not in a vague, theoretical kind of way; they want to make it U.S. law. And even those Christians who may not actively hate me are content to worship with those who do, and rarely do they make any effort at all to stand up the apostles of hatred. Policemen, who are overwhelmingly Christian, systematically harass gay men and lesbians, and I don't hear any objection from the churches. Christian clergy demonize gay men and lesbians, stirring up hatred, blame us for the inability of heterosexuals to keep their marriages together, and are the moving force behind campaigns to deny us equality in American society.

And don't give me that "it's for your own good" line.

Christians don't love me -- or any gay man or any lesbian or any transgender person -- as they love themselves. In fact, they actively hate us. Oh, they'll say they "love the sinner, hate the sin," but their actions betray them.

Christians are about the last people in the U.S. who interested in keeping the second of those commandments. Maybe if you were personally on the receiving end of their hatred, you would have noticed.

Midnight,

I am sorry for your plight. I am not gay, but I do know what it is liked to be hated by Christians. You think they hate gays? Try being a freethinker in a family of fundamentalists, in the South. Not at all trying to belittle what you have to deal with, and you ARE afforded less than the full measure of Constitutional and Human rights.

I am about as straight as they come, but I am all for gays having the exact same rights as anyone else. I don't understand how any compassionate person can see it differently. Just so you know, I am one of the few Texans who did not vote against gay marriage.

B.

I m sorry MNB. Two of my best friends are Gay and have mixed feelings about the church as well. Not all Christians are homo-phobes, and there are MANY of us who enjoy the company of Gays and non-Gays alike. Love God, and Love Everyone else is sooooo foriegn to most everyone that few really understand the real implications of this. Christians are just as subject to unrealistic paranoia as the next person.

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:

Midnight,

I am sorry for your plight. I am not gay, but I do know what it is liked to be hated by Christians. You think they hate gays? Try being a freethinker in a family of fundamentalists, in the South. Not at all trying to belittle what you have to deal with, and you ARE afforded less than the full measure of Constitutional and Human rights.

I am about as straight as they come, but I am all for gays having the exact same rights as anyone else. I don't understand how any compassionate person can see it differently. Just so you know, I am one of the few Texans who did not vote against gay marriage.

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Thank you. And believe me, I know about Southern fundamentalist families. I can count on hearing my mother tell me two things every time I visit my parents' house: (1) I'm going to hell. (2) George W. Bush is the greatest president the U.S. ever had.

Anybody who is limiting or stopping another group from fulfilling some form of pleasure will be seen as intolerant. Religious or non-religious alike.

~Victor

Victor said:

Anybody who is limiting or stopping another group from fulfilling some form of pleasure will be seen as intolerant. Religious or non-religious alike.

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Thank you for the tautology. Those who refuse to tolerate something will be seen as intolerant.

However, it's not a question of "fulfilling some form of pleasure." It's a question of living with integrity, personal safety, and civil rights.

NetDoc said:

I m sorry MNB. Two of my best friends are Gay and have mixed feelings about the church as well. Not all Christians are homo-phobes, and there are MANY of us who enjoy the company of Gays and non-Gays alike. Love God, and Love Everyone else is sooooo foriegn to most everyone that few really understand the real implications of this. Christians are just as subject to unrealistic paranoia as the next person.

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Hey NetDoc -- Sorry, I overlooked your post before.

I used to have mixed feelings about the church, like your friends. But my feelings aren't mixed at all anymore. I understand that there are Christians who are decent people, but they continue to support, by their prayers, their work, and their money, institutions that foster bigotry and hatred as a matter of official policy. Their personal convictions, which are better than their religion, have no effect on their religion.

When it's the churches who are the leaders in hateful campaigns, when atheists and agnostics are kinder and more reasonable than Christians, when all Christianity has to offer is cruelty and the worst of unenlightened human nature, and when Christians see their cruelty and hatefulness as a virtue, then what's the point? Who needs that kind of religion? How can I respect such a religion?

Let's face it, most Christians think the United Church of Christ is way too liberal because in the UCC bigotry and hatred are optional. Not unacceptable, mind you, but optional.

I believe in Jesus, but I'm not convinced that Christians do. Whether they do or not, though, I'm through with their churches.

MidnightBlue said:

Thank you. And believe me, I know about Southern fundamentalist families. I can count on hearing my mother tell me two things every time I visit my parents' house: (1) I'm going to hell. (2) George W. Bush is the greatest president the U.S. ever had.

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It is a matter for you to show love to your mother to change her view on you. I believe true love expressed correctly is able to influence and change another person, especially that person is your mom. Give it a try.

greatcalgarian said:

It is a matter for you to show love to your mother to change her view on you. I believe true love expressed correctly is able to influence and change another person, especially that person is your mom. Give it a try.

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I don't know whether she sincerely believes I'm going to hell, or that's just her way of trying to persuade me to become a fundamentalist. Her opinion of Bush bothers me more than her opinion of my eternal fate.