Are Muslims better Christians than Christians themselves?

eselam said:

A lot of you have misunderstood his point. If being a Christian involved following the teachings of Jesus peace be upon him, then as it was shown, Muslims follow his teachings more than the Christians themselves. So by that, Muslims are technically more Christian than the Christians.

That's regardless of Muslims not actually being Christians, but instead believers in him and that he was a Messenger of God. (It's just a metaphor explaining how much Muslims actually make better Christians than the Christians or something like that.)

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We understood him perfectly. We are also quick to understand his selective and superficial standards. Why does he focus on pork and not on the fact that Jesus blessed wine or kept the Sabbath?
It's a nonsense argument, and a nonsense thread.
Jesus kept traditions which were Jewish, he was circumcised and abstained from eating pork because he practiced Judaism, it has zero relation to modern Muslims.

PFZKW88 said:

The average Muslim is probably more religious than the average Christian, but it only makes them better Muslims, not better Christians.

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:yes:

eselam said:

A lot of you have misunderstood his point. If being a Christian involved following the teachings of Jesus peace be upon him, then as it was shown, Muslims follow his teachings more than the Christians themselves. So by that, Muslims are technically more Christian than the Christians.

That's regardless of Muslims not actually being Christians, but instead believers in him and that he was a Messenger of God. (It's just a metaphor explaining how much Muslims actually make better Christians than the Christians or something like that.)

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His point is that Muslims follow the OT injunctions against eating pork and drinking.
Jesus wasn't about "following the rules." Jesus was about loving your neighbor. My point is that it's the OP who doesn't understand the point.

Caladan said:

We understood him perfectly. We are also quick to understand his selective and superficial standards. Why does he focus on pork and not on the fact that Jesus blessed wine or kept the Sabbath?
It's a nonsense argument, and a nonsense thread.
Jesus kept traditions which were Jewish, he was circumcised and abstained from eating pork because he practiced Judaism, it has zero relation to modern Muslims.

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Maybe you missed this,

OneTwo said:

This thread is not an attack on the Christian faith, but what I want to show is, what Jesus (pbuh) said, and what it says in the Bible, the Muslims follow aswell. Which to me further proves the point, that all the messengers of God came down to deliver the same message.

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sojourner said:

His point is that Muslims follow the OT injunctions against eating pork and drinking.
Jesus wasn't about "following the rules." Jesus was about loving your neighbor. My point is that it's the OP who doesn't understand the point.

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Muslims do love their neighbour. I can post a handful of hadith regarding it. And real cases if that's of any help.

But really, that's not the point. He believes that God sent many Messengers who preached the same message and what the OP says is part of that fact/belief.

eselam said:

Maybe you missed this,

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It tells me nothing of value.

eselam said:

But really, that's not the point. He believes that God sent many Messengers who preached the same message and what the OP says is part of that fact/belief.

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But can he support it historically? the fact that Muslims believe that the Biblical men of Judaism and Christianity practised Islam really means nothing to non Muslims or to students of the history of religion.

Dear sisters and brothers ,
We all need not to fight each other .We all represent same religion .The father of religious is Abraham .And we live same religious but we are not aware of this truth .We all have three kinds of bodies such as spiritual , physical body , sould body and free will .God states only one religion for any time in Torah , Holy Bible and Quran .Only one religion in all celestial books since Adam and Eve. I will write it down 7 stages of one religion in torah and holy bible such as follows ;
This religion has been announced in celestial books including Torah, Holy Bible and Quran
ACCORDING TO THE VERSES IN BIBLE
7 STAGES OF RELIGION IS OBLIGATORY
(Prepared by International M.I.H.R. Foundation)
1st Stage: Wishing To Reach Allah
Matthew 7:7, 8 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives, and the one who seeks finds, and to the one who knocks it will be opened.
Mat thew 13:15,16 For this people's heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed, lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.' But blessed are your eyes, for they see, and your ears, for they hear.
Job 22:27 You will make your prayer to him, and he will hear you, and you will pay your vows.
Job 22:30 He delivers even the one who is not innocent, who will be delivered through the cleanness of your hands."
2 nd Stage: Repentance
Matthew 3:1-3 In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah when he said, "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the Lord; make his paths straight.'"
Matthew 3: 6 and they were baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
Matthew 3:11 "I baptize you with water for repentance, but he who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire.
Matthew 3:13-16 Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to John, to be baptized by him. John would have prevented him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?" But Jesus answered him, "Let it be so now, for thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness." Then he consented. And when Jesus was baptized, immediately he went up from the water, and behold, the heavens were opened to him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and coming to rest on him;
1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free; and have been all made to drink of one Spirit.
Acts 9:17 So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, "Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit."
3 rd Stage: Submission of One's Spirit to Allah
Acts 3:19,20 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus,
Luke 1:15,16 For he will be great before the Lord. And he must not drink wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit, even from his mother's womb. And he will turn many of the children of Israel to the Lord their God.
John 3:13 No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
4 th Stage: Submission of Physical Body to Allah
1 Corinthians 6:19,20 Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.

John 3:4,5 Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.

Matthew 6:24-25 "No one can serve two masters, for either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and money. "Therefore I tell you, do not be anxious about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink, nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food, and the body more than clothing?

Luke 12:23 For life is more than food, and the body more than clothing.


5 th Stage: Submission of One's Soul to Allah

Galatians 6:14 But far be it from me to boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world has been crucified to me, and I to the world.

Romans 6:18 and, having been set free from sin, you have become slaves of righteousness.



6 th Stage: Sanctification of Heart

Matthew 5:5 "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

Mark 12:29-33 Jesus answered, "The most important is, 'Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.' The second is this: 'You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' There is no other commandment greater than these." And the scribe said to him, "You are right, Teacher. You have truly said that he is one, and there is no other besides him. And to love him with all the heart and with all the understanding and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is much more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."


7 th Stage: Submission of Free Will to Allah

Matthew 5:8 "Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

Luke 6:27-29 "But I say to you who hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. To one who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also, and from one who takes away your cloak do not withhold your tunic either.

Matthew 22:39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

My eyes hurt.
Is it possible, just one time, for religious people who want to convey a message to do it without flooding threads with copy pasting quotes from the Bible or the Qur'an?
Just tell us what you think in your own words. Lest be honest, no one is going to bother to read all these verses.

eselam said:

Muslims do love their neighbour. I can post a handful of hadith regarding it. And real cases if that's of any help.

But really, that's not the point. He believes that God sent many Messengers who preached the same message and what the OP says is part of that fact/belief.

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what, specifically, is that "one message?" Care to share?

Christians do not believe they are required to adhere to the old dietary laws, "What goes in to a man's mouth does not make him unclean" (Matthew 15:11, Acts 11:5-10), and the consumption of wine was permitted -- in fact, it was encouraged to drink water "with a little wine" (1 Timothy 5:23), most probably because of germs that could live in water; the verses you have shown seem to prohibit drunkenness, not the drinking of alcohol -- huge difference. A little alcohol will not make someone drunk, excess will, which is what seems to be opposed.

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What we have here is an example of the evidence of the anti-Judaizing theologies and their influence. The common (mis)interpretation would basically make Jesus saying its okay to put anything in your mouth, as in ANYTHING. By this interpretation, cannibalism and worse is a-okay. Hence, why the Apostles asked him about this "parable" and why Peter still didn't "get the message" by Acts 10 (Which is also used out of context where it clearly states that its just a vision and a metaphor for letting gentiles in the church).

If Jesus did in fact teach to not follow the dietary Laws, he'd be right viable for a flying rock fest to the face.

So it's not so much "Christians' that believe this but it's Pauline post-Roman "Christians" who adhere to these kinds of Theologies. Their defenses for such questions such as cannibalism often leave one with even more questions...

In addition, there are some Christian groups who do not consume alcohol or pork. Seventh Day Adventists, I believe, are one of them.

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Very good, I think 7DAs are far closer to the truth than most all other "Christians", along with JWs, you guys should combine your theologies, they're right on the Trinity but wrong on the commandments.

The "Spirit of Truth" is said to "dwell in" them. Muhammad cannot "dwell in" someone as he is a person, and that doesn't make sense.

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I think most 'Christians" who think the "Spirit of Truth" dwells in them are blaspheming it by saying so.

Caladan said:

But can he support it historically? the fact that Muslims believe that the Biblical men of Judaism and Christianity practised Islam really means nothing to non Muslims or to students of the history of religion.

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Since i have nothing to do right now i will just reply if you don't mind .

The definition of Muslim simply means: Submission to the will of god we can clearly see in the biblical scriptures and the Torah that both messengers (Esha & Musa peace be upon them) were doing that so there is your historical proof...

We don't belief the terms Christianity or Judaism ever existed in the time of the prophets. The Op clearly stated he just wanted to make some points (pointing out verses) that are comparative with Islamic teachings and what most Muslims uphold and Christians don't therefore upholding the Bible in some cases better. I would say Jews are more Christians since the term means a follower of Jesus(p) even if they do not follow him but its because he was Jewish and uphold thelaw that was given before, generally Muslims belief that Jesus(p) was send for that period to enlighten Jewish people not make a new law and announcing that he is the messiah and nothing else.

F0uad said:

Since i have nothing to do right now i will just reply if you don't mind .

The definition of Muslim simply means: Submission to the will of god we can clearly see in the biblical scriptures and the Torah that both messengers (Esha & Musa peace be upon them) were doing that so there is your historical proof...

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I am going to ask again, do Muslims actually believe this is a satisfactory answer for non Muslims? there is no proof here what so ever. Of course Biblical men accepted the will of God (although that is hardly accurate as several of them resisted the process until God submitted them), but I will ask again what does it have to do with modern Muslims?
simply because the word Islam means submission? no. I am sorry. These men were not Muslims, Islam was created only centuries and centuries later.
This is a very poor answer from a non Muslim perspective, and I should also hope that from an Islamic perspective.

We don't belief the terms Christianity or Judaism ever existed in the time of the prophets.

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It's pure semantics, since the word Islam did not exist either. The people who later called themselves Jews already existed and the word Yehuda/Judah did exist. But just to indulge this concept, who cares what they called themselves? what is important is that they were in existence, we are not talking about people made out of thin air.

The Op clearly stated he just wanted to make some points (pointing out verses) that are comparative with Islamic teachings and what most Muslims uphold and Christians don't therefore upholding the Bible in some cases better.

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I hardly accept it. The OP is a case of selective listing with a less than minimum understanding of Jewish history or Jewish practices. Jesus practiced Judaism, not Islam. Hence he abstained from pork and was circumcised. Not a mystery really.

Shermana said:

What we have here is an example of the evidence of the anti-Judaizing theologies and their influence. The common (mis)interpretation would basically make Jesus saying its okay to put anything in your mouth, as in ANYTHING. By this interpretation, cannibalism and worse is a-okay. Hence, why the Apostles asked him about this "parable" and why Peter still didn't "get the message" by Acts 10 (Which is also used out of context where it clearly states that its just a vision and a metaphor for letting gentiles in the church).

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shermana, you are right in that the vision was symbolic of allowing gentiles into the congregation, however, the christians came to understand it to be evidence that the new covenant had come into effect and the old mosaic law covenant was no long binding on those who wanted a relationship with God.

Think about it, the mosaic law itself only allows gentiles into the covenant if they meet the requirements and convert to Judaism...yet those christian gentiles were being brought into a covenant with God WITHOUT meeting the requirements of the mosaic law. They were not circumcised, they did not worship at the temple, they were not wearing the proper clothing as required under the law, they ate 'unclean' foods etc etc and yet, God poured out his holy spirit upon them.

So the apostles reasoned that if God was pouring out holy spirit on gentiles who were not followers of mosaic law, then it must mean the mosaic law was not a requirement as it once had been.

Caladan said:

It tells me nothing of value.

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It tells me that what you said was wrong and had misunderstood the point.

Caladan said:

But can he support it historically? the fact that Muslims believe that the Biblical men of Judaism and Christianity practised Islam really means nothing to non Muslims or to students of the history of religion.

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What would count as historical evidence?

Are the Books of God historical evidences? They are quite old I must say.

eselam said:

It tells me that what you said was wrong and had misunderstood the point.

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Good for you eselam. :ignore:

eselam said:

What would count as historical evidence?

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Seriously, you really have to ask? simply provide evidence that Jesus or the apostles practiced Islam and not Judaism. Since you so strongly believe this I am sure you have done research into the matter.

Are the Books of God historical evidences? They are quite old I must say.

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The Hebrew Bible and the New Testament do not discuss the rise of Islam. They discuss the Kingdom of Israel, the kingdom of Judah. The NT discusses Jewish society under the Roman regime. None of these books tell us anything about the appearance of Islam in Arabia, let alone in Judea circa first century.

Caladan said:

Good for you eselam. :ignore:

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thanks.

eselam said:

thanks.

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Anytime pumpkin.