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if we can't determine there is a higher intelligence.....

robtex

Veteran Member
Apex said:
If we cant explain how our uviverse works how can we determine if there is a higher inteligence?
From another thread here:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24649

For the theists and deists who say there may be (or is) a higher power but we can't determine, assess, prove or qualify its existance through observation or testing and in the understanding you can't "have a relationship" with something you cannot observe, I have to ask.....why does it matter if a higher power exists or not if you don't interact with it?
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
robtex said:
From another thread here:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24649

For the theists and deists who say there may be (or is) a higher power but we can't determine, assess, prove or qualify its existance through observation or testing and in the understanding you can't "have a relationship" with something you cannot observe, I have to ask.....why does it matter if a higher power exists or not if you don't interact with it?
It matters greatly to me. Because I can:

A)
1) Define "evil" in the first place
[size=-1]2) Have hope of eventual eschatological justice[/size]
[size=-1]3) Have an objective basis of condemning evil[/size]
[size=-1]4) Have a belief in a heaven of everlasting bliss[/size]


[size=-1]VS.[/size]

[size=-1]B) Having an ultimately absolutely hopeless and[/size][size=-1] meaningless universe.[/size]

I'll take A. You pick yours....
 

robtex

Veteran Member
Victor said:
It matters greatly to me. Because I can:

A)
1) Define "evil" in the first place
[size=-1] 2) Have hope of eventual eschatological justice[/size]
[size=-1] 3) Have an objective basis of condemning evil[/size]
[size=-1] 4) Have a belief in a heaven of everlasting bliss[/size]


[size=-1]VS.[/size]

[size=-1]B) Having an ultimately absolutely hopeless and[/size][size=-1] meaningless universe.[/size]

I'll take B. You pick yours....
Victor doesn't the Pope have contact with God and the clergy with the pope and the people with the clergy? My understanding is that you may not be able to detect God but the church can and you detect God through the church right?

In regards to (A) and (B) why do you think you and I get to "choose"? I also don't think a meanlingless universe is indicative of a hopeless one.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
robtex said:
Victor doesn't the Pope have contact with God and the clergy with the pope and the people with the clergy? My understanding is that you may not be able to detect God but the church can and you detect God through the church right?
Kinda. One can thru their own faculties come to know truth in various ways. Whether it be direct revelation, the bible [indirect communicaiton], nature, etc. The Church is the measuring stick thru which I can compare my findings in regards to morality.

robtex said:
In regards to (A) and (B) why do you think you and I get to "choose"?
You lost me here. What are you getting at?

robtex said:
I also don't think a meanlingless universe is indicative of a hopeless one.
Hope for what robtex? I'm curious.
 

robtex

Veteran Member
Victor said:

You lost me here. What are you getting at?
That (A) and (B) are not choices but perceptions. I don't think you get to pick which one you want. You can assess which one is closer to correct and you maybe right or wrong.


Victor said:
Hope for what robtex? I'm curious.
I mean the universe without a creator is meaningless but not hopeless. Man can, in his own lifetime, in his own community create and supply meaning for his or her own existance and the community can form community meanings for existance but without a creator the universe itself is meaningless.
 

Quiddity

UndertheInfluenceofGiants
robtex said:
That (A) and (B) are not choices but perceptions. I don't think you get to pick which one you want. You can assess which one is closer to correct and you maybe right or wrong.
Oh I see what you mean. I cannot assess who I am and the world around me with option B.

robtex said:
I mean the universe without a creator is meaningless but not hopeless. Man can, in his own lifetime, in his own community create and supply meaning for his or her own existance and the community can form community meanings for existance but without a creator the universe itself is meaningless.
Any meaning extracted is at the individual level. But I would say that most lives on this earth are not all that happy or [size=-1]fulfilled.[/size] And there is only "hope" if there is some kind of solution for the populace. I have yet to see this in an atheistic world view.

~Victor
 

robtex

Veteran Member
Victor said:

Any meaning extracted is at the individual level. But I would say that most lives on this earth are not all that happy or [size=-1]fulfilled.[/size]And there is only "hope" if there is some kind of solution for the populace. I have yet to see this in an atheistic world view.
~Victor
Hope for humanity? Many if not most atheist assets that humanity is it own source of hope and community as opposed to God.

Atheistic world views would include

secular humanism,
objectivism
Utilitarianism

to name a few.
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
robtex said:
From another thread here:
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=24649

For the theists and deists who say there may be (or is) a higher power but we can't determine, assess, prove or qualify its existance through observation or testing and in the understanding you can't "have a relationship" with something you cannot observe, I have to ask.....why does it matter if a higher power exists or not if you don't interact with it?
We don't have to see God in order to interact with Him, Robtex.

Praying to God is one way of interacting with Him.
 

robtex

Veteran Member
Cordoba said:
We don't have to see God in order to interact with Him, Robtex.

Praying to God is one way of interacting with Him.
Simplier still, how do you detect or physically percieve him and if you cannot, how can you define it as a personal relationship?
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
Sufis have a great answer to this point.

They say: he who has "tasted" surely knows.

The Love of God is a strong feeling in the heart of believers.
 

fromthe heart

Well-Known Member
robtex said:
Hope for humanity? Many if not most atheist assets that humanity is it own source of hope and community as opposed to God.

Atheistic world views would include

secular humanism,
objectivism
Utilitarianism

to name a few.
Having seen the fruits of God's work in life around me I have such a hard time understanding how anyone can NOT believe there has to be a higher power that controls what is destined for each and every one of us.

I can not invision living in a world that once you die you are just dead and nothing you have done for the good matters. I can not look at a brand new baby being born and not be in awe and wonderment of the complexities in this little life.

Have you ever had a dream and don't remember it at the time but find it happening later down the road and the dream dawns on you that you knew what was going to happen in the next sentence? To me this is God's way to warn/prepare us for something to come....I can not see in all I've seen throughout my life where there CAN'T be someone working through us in a higher way than just that of ourselves.
Just My personal thoughts...you don't have to agree.:D
 

robtex

Veteran Member
Cordoba said:
Sufis have a great answer to this point.

They say: he who has "tasted" surely knows.

The Love of God is a strong feeling in the heart of believers.
But are believers percievers, and if not is there really a "personal relationship" ? You pray but other than acts you surmise to be acts of God is there really a two-way communication or just a one way...and if only one way why does it matter if God exists or not?
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
robtex said:
But are believers percievers, and if not is there really a "personal relationship" ? You pray but other than acts you surmise to be acts of God is there really a two-way communication or just a one way...and if only one way why does it matter if God exists or not?
Yes, a personal relationship with God does exist. From a Muslim perspective it's a two way communication.

As a start, he who wants to communicate with God would pray, and he who wants God to communicate with him should read His words in The Qur'an.

When prayers are answered, and when the love of God fills the heart, one feels this personal relationship.

Why do you think God does not exist?
 

robtex

Veteran Member
Cordoba said:
As a start, he who wants to communicate with God would pray, and he who wants God to communicate with him should read His words in The Qur'an.
It is pre-written text. Written thousands of years before you were born and to another group of muslims. That doesn't seem very personal.

Cordoba said:
When prayers are answered, and when the love of God fills the heart, one feels this personal relationship.
Without two way communication you are surmising God answered them instead of events unfolding naturally. If you are not speaking and being spoken too (not reading) or seeing and Allah sees back or even touching it seems to me that you are surmising not knowing.

Cordoba said:
Why do you think God does not exist?
I am a weak atheist which means I see no evidence or reasonable theory as to why he exists. It also means I don't find your holy scriptures like the Bible, Koran, or hindu texts to be evidence of a higher being.

Because man has no personal relationship with God via the 5 natural senses I don't care if a higher power exists or not. He/she/it is not part of my world anymore than the people of hong kong are until such time communication is established.
 

Dayv

Member
fromtheheart, is it really that you can't imagine a universe where death is absolute and there is no higher meaning? Or is it that you are deeply afraid that death is absolute and there is no higher meaning? You say your beliefs are from experiancing god around you and seeing insite in your dreams, but I suggest perhaps they are are derived from you desperately seeking meaning in the world around you and twisiting your dreams to fit in a reality they don't belong.
 

Cordoba

Well-Known Member
Dayv said:
fromtheheart, is it really that you can't imagine a universe where death is absolute and there is no higher meaning? Or is it that you are deeply afraid that death is absolute and there is no higher meaning? You say your beliefs are from experiancing god around you and seeing insite in your dreams, but I suggest perhaps they are are derived from you desperately seeking meaning in the world around you and twisiting your dreams to fit in a reality they don't belong.
Hello Dayv:

Not at all.

Reason leads to faith in God:

http://www.evidencesofcreation.com/reason01.htm
 

Scuba Pete

Le plongeur avec attitude...
robtex said:
For the theists and deists who say there may be (or is) a higher power but we can't determine, assess, prove or qualify its existance through observation or testing and in the understanding you can't "have a relationship" with something you cannot observe, I have to ask.....why does it matter if a higher power exists or not if you don't interact with it?
The premise is wrong here, Robtex. God has proven himsef to me many times over through revelations. However, you might see the SAME evidence and reach completely different conclusions. It's all a matter of perception.

To me it's like this:

You see an empty glass and declare water to be a myth.

I see an empty glass and look for a faucet.

When you see my glass you declare, "Hah! It's empty!"

I hold my empty glass in my hand and savor the taste of the water I just drank.

We can debate the existance or non existance of God ad nauseum. When you get thirsty enough, you will look for a faucet. :D It's all a matter of perception.
 

mr.guy

crapsack
If i have you right, netdoc, only the spiritually bankrupt can deny god? Do we sit around in denial of thirst?
 
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