Does Matthew 25:14-46 teach non-Christians can go to heaven?

james2ko · May 19, 2012

waitasec said:
why do you think you have the absolute true understanding of god? i'm a part of the general public

Why do you even care, when you claim to deny my version of God?

waitasec · May 20, 2012

james2ko said:
Why do you even care, when you claim to deny my version of God?

to debate your version of god

james2ko · May 20, 2012

waitasec said:
to debate your version of god

Of all the discussions we've had to date, you have yet to refute my version of God. Is it possible you are using the pretext of debate in order to inquire about my version--the true version--of God which seemingly intrigues you?

adambaum · May 20, 2012

I like your interpretation of this passage. Of course everyone will interpret this Matthew their own way because we all have our own religion. There are 7 billion religions out there after all.

james2ko · May 20, 2012

adambaum said:
I like your interpretation of this passage. Of course everyone will interpret this Matthew their own way because we all have our own religion. There are 7 billion religions out there after all.

Is this addressed to me?

adambaum · May 20, 2012

Sure. I support your 'interpretation' because I believe it is just as valid as any other interpretation.

james2ko · May 20, 2012

adambaum said:
Sure. I support your 'interpretation' because I believe it is just as valid as any other interpretation.

Ok..May I suggest in the future using the "quote" feature at the bottom right side of the post you wish to reply to. It will take the guess work out of who is being addressed and make it easier on you and those whom you engage in discussion.

adambaum · May 20, 2012

Ah yes, indeed I am but a noviate. Thank you for the sage wisdom. I will follow this advice from this point forward.

punkdbass · May 20, 2012

waitasec said:
what for?

@james2ko I would like to hear your answer to this question if you dont mind

waitasec · May 20, 2012

james2ko said:
Of all the discussions we've had to date, you have yet to refute my version of God. Is it possible you are using the pretext of debate in order to inquire about my version--the true version--of God which seemingly intrigues you?

that's the thing...how do you know it is the true version?
how does your personal conviction trump islam or judaism...are you not just as skeptical about those religions as i am of yours (as i am of theirs as well)?

i haven't put myself in a position of committing to something that cannot be committed to... the unknown... you have. therefore that is why i am enquiring as to how you got to that place and debating the fallacy of claiming to know the unknown.

for instance, if we are standing outside and it begins to rain...we both know and experience the rain...god on the other hand does not reveal himself in that way, and i want to know why not? why would god prefer people to claim to know him in a subjective manner rather than an empirical one.
and, if one is skeptical about this god having any type of human characteristics they are somehow dissing god and are deserving of punishment for it...
i don't get it, how does that make sense to you?

punkdbass · May 20, 2012

james2ko said:
2. That would mean the good works described in the parable could possibly earn a human being salvation. That conclusion is contrary to biblical teaching.

No, it is simply contrary to your interpretation of the Bible.

james2ko said:
3. Think about it? If He were trying to save the world in this age, why would He allow satan to rule, blind, and influence this world? (2 co 4:4; 1 Jn 5:19; Jn 16:11). If God was trying to save the world in this age, why would He allow satan to snatch God's Word from those who hear it? (Luk 8:12) If He were trying to save the world, why would He not want those who hear His words to believe, be forgiven of their sins and subsequently be saved? (Mk 4:12). If He were trying to save the world, shouldn't He at least be calling "all" instead of "many" (Mat 22:14)?

Let's be honest, how many people are actually converted by the hearing of the gospel? If He were trying to save the world, satan seems to have the upper hand, yet passages in the book of Job and other places tell us satan and his demons are subject to God's authority and tremble at it (Jam 2:19). This clearly indicates God is in control and for the time being, is allowing satan to cause confusion because there are only a finite number of leaders He needs to help Christ rule the earth. Taken all of this evidence into consideration, we can only conclude that God's primary focus, in this age, is not to save the world.

These are all very good questions james, and I definitely will not claim to know the answers. Ultimately I think human progress/moral growth is a very, very SLOW process, but that we are indeed headed in the right direction(messianic age), but like I said it's definitely not going to happen over night.

james2ko said:
4. At His return--at the start of the next age--not in this one. He is primarily utilizing this age as a training ground to develop leaders to help Him rule the earth at His return. (Ps 149:9; Mat 19:28; Lk 19:12-27; 2 Tim 2:12; Rev 2:26-27; 3:21.) He is also using this age so those who are resurrected, after the millennium, under paradasaic conditions, can compare both ways of life--God's way of life vs their old way-- in hopes of making their decision to accept His way that much easier.

Hmm, so are you saying He's basically using this age to allow people the CHOICE to become good leaders or not, but in the next age there will only be perfection?

james2ko said:
Mat 12:41-42 The men of Nineveh will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and indeed a greater than Jonah is here. 42 The queen of the South will rise up in the judgment with this generation and condemn it, for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and indeed a greater than Solomon is here.

Yeah I find the passages about Nineveh and Jonah to be very interesting. I also find it very interesting that Nineveh, a gentile nation that did not make blood sacrifices or worship Jesus was forgiven and will be the ones to condemn "this generation." We read the book of Jonah on Yom Kippur to remind us that even without the Temple, repentance is possible. The "sign of Jonah" that Jesus promises the wicked generation is something that really interests me.

james2ko said:
After satan is put away forever (Rev 20:10), the vast majority of humanity, who died from Adam to the return of Christ, will be resurrected (Eze 37; Rev 20:5) and be given their opportunity to accept or reject Christ. They will be led and taught by those from the first resurrection (Isa 30:20-21) and given a period of possibly 100 years to repent (Isa 65:20) receive God's Holy Spirit and eternal life. It is not a second chance at salvation. It is their first genuine chance at salvation but their second chance at physical life. This is the period of time when "all flesh shall see the salvation of God" (Luk 3:6). God does not wish for anyone to perish but for all to come to repentance (2 Pet 3:9). This 2nd chance at physical life is God's way of showing His mercy and love to all of mankind and maximizing mankind's chance of attaining eternal life.

Hmm, interesting, I have never heard such views as yours before. The main thing I don't get though, is if Satan is definitely under God's control(which we both can agree he would be), then why does God allow Satan to decieve man? Why would he allow that? What is the purpose/point? Because it seems to me that you believe a lot of people don't even have the free will to be good but rather Satan completely controls them. Why would God allow that?

I'm going to read the article you posted. But anyways, correct me if I'm wrong but a summary of your eschatological beliefs would be something like this:

1. the main purpose of this age is to raise leaders for the end of times
2. bunch of earthly end time events will happen
3. 2nd coming of Jesus/judgment of those alive
4. resurrection of all who ever lived, chance to fully understand the gospel and repent
5. after a 100 years, those who failed to repent will be cast away and everyone else will live eternally in peace

EDIT: I enjoyed reading the article and find it to be similar to my afterlife beliefs. If there is an afterlife, this is my understanding of how it would work: eventually humankind will reach its fullest potential(messianic age) where essentially God's Kingdom will have been brought down to earth, and that somehow all who contributed to the creation of this age will be able to experience it.

waitasec · May 20, 2012

opcorn:

james2ko · May 20, 2012

punkdbass said:
No, it is simply contrary to your interpretation of the Bible.

1. Very well. If you can prove to me from the NT that simply anyone can earn eternal life (salvation) by "only" doing good deeds, I'll take a closer look. But you cannot use the parables. We already proved not even his disciples understood them.

punkdbass said:
These are all very good questions james, and I definitely will not claim to know the answers. Ultimately I think human progress/moral growth is a very, very SLOW process, but that we are indeed headed in the right direction(messianic age), but like I said it's definitely not going to happen over night.

2. The problems plaguing our earth are beyond repair. God has given mankind 6,000 years to experiment with their own governments, educational systems, and religions and they have all failed miserably at making the earth the utopian society God always intended. The only way to alleviate all of the world's ills and develop "garden of eden" conditions, is to start from scratch with Christ and righteous, supernatural-hybrid beings at the helm.

punkdbass said:
Hmm, so are you saying He's basically using this age to allow people the CHOICE to become good leaders or not,

3. That's correct. Think of this age as basic training for true Christians. The next age, the millennium followed by the 100 yr judgment period, will be much easier to accept Christ. He will be physically dwelling with the people in Jerusalem (Zec 2:10-11) on earth--not in heavenly Jerusalem, as some groups believe, and His laws will eventually permeate the earth (Isa 11:9). God, in His infinite wisdom, calls or opens the minds of many people (Mat 22:14). He then waits for them to respond. If they respond to His calling, He choses them and begins intense leadership training by fashioning and molding their character through trials, tests, and circumstances to become more like His. If they endure to the end, they are rewarded with a supernatural spirit body, with the same memories and consciousness of this life and a position in Christ's Super World Government!

punkdbass said:
but in the next age there will only be perfection?

4. Not in the very beginning. The next age--the millennium--will begin immediately after the catastrophic and traumatic end-time events. I'm speculating, but based on an obscure passage in Isaiah, the millennium will begin with perhaps 700 million human survivors of this age. It will take Christ and the Saints some time to gain the trust and assist these traumatized, bewildered, emotionally and physically injured human beings. It may take some time for the people to finally accept the massive changes and utopia abounds. Until then, there will be problems. Scripture indicates, most likely after Christ returns but before He fully establishes order, some countries will attempt to pillage the defenseless land of Israel (Eze 38-39), even with satan put away! Old habits die hard!

punkdbass said:
Hmm, interesting, I have never heard such views as yours before. The main thing I don't get though, is if Satan is definitely under God's control(which we both can agree he would be), then why does God allow Satan to decieve man? Why would he allow that? What is the purpose/point? Because it seems to me that you believe a lot of people don't even have the free will to be good but rather Satan completely controls them. Why would God allow that?

5. The bible doesn't specifically state. But a little critical thinking and analysis of the many scriptures I posted (there are many more. I didn't want to make the post any longer than it was) can clue us in on why He allows satan these "restricted" freedoms. Scripture indicates God uses satan as a tool to accomplish His will. I liken it to an unwitting servant. In His unimaginable wisdom, God uses satan to test and chastise His people and the inhabitants of the earth, all the while satan thinks He is thwarting God's plan but is actually helping Him fulfill it! Another plausible reason may be God only needs a finite number of positions filled to assist Christ in ruling the earth. If He allowed everyone to convert now, He would have an overstaffed government in the millennium. No different than the human govt's of today

.

Another possible reason for allowing satan to deceive the world is God knows that if He opens up everyone's mind now to the truth, many, if not most, will not be able to endure the tough life of being a true Christian in satan's world (Act 14:22). Once you convert to true Christianity, that is your first and only shot at salvation. If a true Christian falls away or does not fulfill His Christian duty in this life, Christ's sacrifice for their sins will be forfeited (Heb 10:26). No sacrifice means no forgiveness, no forgiveness equates to the lake of fire. If you think about in the broader scope of attaining eternal life, satan's deception is actually a blessing! As long as the individual remains deceived--ignorant of God's truth, they will be resurrected to physical life and have an opportunity to accept or reject Christ under utopian conditions.

punkdbass said:
My responses are in red.
1. the main purpose of this age is to raise leaders for the end of times--To develop leaders for the Messiah's 1,000 yr reign and to create an unforgettable contrast between man's way of life versus God's. This stark comparison will make accepting Christ's way a no brainer. Which is precisely God's plan (2 Pet 3:9;Luk 3:6)
2. bunch of earthly end time events will happen--if you only knew....
3. 2nd coming of Jesus/judgment of those alive--True Christians who are alive and perhaps true Christians of the past who willfully fell away,
4. resurrection of all who ever lived, chance to fully understand the gospel and repent--.Yes.
5. after a 100 years, those who failed to repent will be cast away and everyone else will live eternally in peace--after 1,000 years,a massive resurrection will occur, with memories, personality, habits they had in this life intact. In which they will get 100 yrs to accept or reject Christ's way of life.

punkdbass said:
EDIT: I enjoyed reading the article and find it to be similar to my afterlife beliefs. If there is an afterlife, this is my understanding of how it would work: eventually humankind will reach its fullest potential(messianic age) where essentially God's Kingdom will have been brought down to earth, and that somehow all who contributed to the creation of this age will be able to experience it.

6. May God speed that day!

james2ko · May 20, 2012

waitasec said:
what for?

1. He spoke in parables to fulfill prophecy (Ps 78:2;Mat 13:34-35)

waitasec said:
that's the thing...how do you know it is the true version?

2. Mixture of mercy and grace on God's part. Faith and reason on mine. It's the only version that makes any sense to me and is completely compatible with scripture, as evidenced by our many discussions and my discussions with others.

waitasec said:
how does your personal conviction trump islam or judaism...are you not just as skeptical about those religions as i am of yours (as i am of theirs as well)?

3. The only name under heaven by which men can be saved is Christ (Act 4:12)--not Mohammad. The Judaism you see today is not the religion God introduced to Moses and the Israelites at Sinai. True Christianity grew out of, and is an extension of, the religion originally given to the Israelites at Sinai. After all, the God of the OT Israelites was Christ Himself (1Co 10:4).

waitasec said:
i haven't put myself in a position of committing to something that cannot be committed to... the unknown... you have. therefore that is why i am enquiring as to how you got to that place and debating the fallacy of claiming to know the unknown.

4. It is only unknown to those whom God has allowed the god of this age to blind, as the scriptures plainly reveal.

waitasec said:
for instance, if we are standing outside and it begins to rain...we both know and experience the rain...god on the other hand does not reveal himself in that way, and i want to know why not? why would god prefer people to claim to know him in a subjective manner rather than an empirical one.

5. I think of it this way. If you've read my post to Punkdbass, you would realize that God needs to do it this way. If He is going to reward someone an eternal, spirit body with great supernatural powers, He has to be sure they will not abuse that power at some point in eternity. What better way to ensure this does not happen by requiring His potential physical candidates to obey a being they cannot physically hear from or see, while enduring rigorous testing, trials, and problems from this same unempirical being.

As far as God is concerned, if physically and mentally weak bodies, by comparison to immortal/angelic bodies, can faithfully obey someone unseen, how much more will they faithfully obey Him when they shed their corruptible physical bodies, see and speak to Him? Christ alluded to this:

John 20:29Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Job went through a similar experience:

Job 42:5-6 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

waitasec said:
and, if one is skeptical about this god having any type of human characteristics they are somehow dissing god and are deserving of punishment for it...

6. If you read any of my post to Punkdbass, you should come to the conclusion that God would not eternally banish anyone without first giving them a satan-free opportunity to know Him. Besides, Christ said He did not come to judge unbelievers of this age, He came to save them:

Joh 12:47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

He died at His first coming so those whom He blinded can have a second chance at life. When you're physically resurrected under Utopian conditions and personally meet Christ, Abraham, Moses, Elijah, hopefully me

and the rest of His supernatural-hybrid beings, you'll hopefully have a different perspective.

Jove · May 20, 2012

punkdbass said:
Just curious to hear everyone's interpretations of the last 2 stories found in Matthew 25.

-Matthew 25:14-30 features a parable in which a King gives his first slave 5 talents(type of money), the second he gives 2 talents, and the third he gives one. The first slave invests his talents and earns 5 more, the second slave invests his talents and earns 2 more, and the last slave burries his talent in the ground and does nothing with it. The first 2 slaves go to heaven, and the last slave goes to hell. My interpretation of this parable is that God gives every one of us different levels of skills, talents, wisdom, understanding, etc, and that all that matters is we sincerely try to use these things for good. It doesnt matter if we do more good(earn 5 talents) than others(only earn 2), all that matters is that we sincerely tried to use what we were given in life for good. And that those who refuse to try and use these things for good(slave who burried his 1 talent), are the one's who are denied access to heaven.

-Matthew 25:31-46 features a story about the day of judgment where Jesus divides those going to hell and those going to heaven. He says to those who are heaven-bound: "For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.. And the righteous respond, "Lord when was it that we saw you hungry and gave you food, or thirsty and gave you something to drink? And when was it that we saw you a stranger and welcomed you, or naked and gave you clothing? ...etc. and Jesus says: Truly I tell you, just as you did it to one of the least of these who are members of my family, you did it to me."

My interpretation of this story is that even non-Christians(who dont know Jesus) who feed the hungry, welcome the stranger, clothe the naked, visit the sick, etc can go to heaven. Both of these stories found in Matthew 25, suggest to me that salvation can be achieved through works of compassion. Just curious to see how you guys interpret these 2 stores, please share Perhaps my interpretations are way off the boat or heavily reflect my Jewish bias.. but I really enjoyed reading the gospel of Matthew and found it interesting that so little of the dogma behind Jesus's sacrifice and blood atonement was present in the gospel of Matthew -which is supposed to accurately depict Jesus's life and teachings.

Wellthen the world is also flat too. : )

punkdbass · May 20, 2012

james2ko said:
1. Very well. If you can prove to me from the NT that simply anyone can earn eternal life (salvation) by "only" doing good deeds, I'll take a closer look. But you cannot use the parables. We already proved not even his disciples understood them.

You said it was contrary to "Biblical" teaching. The Tanakh or "Old Testament" as you call it is part of the Christian Bible, and in it I do not see the idea that salvation can only come through blood atonement(a.k.a Jesus), but rather I see other means for salvation(Enoch went to heaven without blood sacrifices, Nineveh was forgiven without blood, Hosea teaches prayer can achieve atonement, Lev. 26 says exiled Jews who thus cant make sacrifices can confess and humble their hearts and achieve atonement, Psalm 51 says true sacrifice is a contrite heart and spirit, not blood offerings, etc)

In the NT, from what I've seen thus far, the issue of faith and works is not a simple concept, as there are often seemingly contradictory views. Paul and James are definitely at odds with each other for example, and I side with James view of the subject. James is crystal clear that faith alone can not save. Overall I'd say the NT preaches the idea that you need both faith and works for salvation. Perhaps my favorite verse in James is 2:18 "I by my works will show you my faith". If you equate faith to what lies in ones heart, then IMO good non Christians and Christians who do good acts with pure motives essentially have the same faith(hearts) and both would achieve salvation.

I also like Matthew 5:9 - "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God."

james2ko said:
5. The bible doesn't specifically state. But a little critical thinking and analysis of the many scriptures I posted (there are many more. I didn't want to make the post any longer than it was) can clue us in on why He allows satan these "restricted" freedoms. Scripture indicates God uses satan as a tool to accomplish His will. I liken it to an unwitting servant. In His unimaginable wisdom, God uses satan to test and chastise His people and the inhabitants of the earth, all the while satan thinks He is thwarting God's plan but is actually helping Him fulfill it! Another plausible reason may be God only needs a finite number of positions filled to assist Christ in ruling the earth. If He allowed everyone to convert now, He would have an overstaffed government in the millennium. No different than the human govt's of today

So does satan test or control? And I dont buy the reason that God would only need a limited number of "leaders," rather I think he would desire everyone to become leaders.

james2ko said:
Another possible reason for allowing satan to deceive the world is God knows that if He opens up everyone's mind now to the truth, many, if not most, will not be able to endure the tough life of being a true Christian in satan's world (Act 14:22). Once you convert to true Christianity, that is your first and only shot at salvation. If a true Christian falls away or does not fulfill His Christian duty in this life, Christ's sacrifice for their sins will be forfeited (Heb 10:26). No sacrifice means no forgiveness, no forgiveness equates to the lake of fire. If you think about in the broader scope of attaining eternal life, satan's deception is actually a blessing! As long as the individual remains deceived--ignorant of God's truth, they will be resurrected to physical life and have an opportunity to accept or reject Christ under utopian conditions.

Hmm so basically you think the reason God couldnt have just blatantly told everyone what they needed to do in life(and have them understand it) is because many people wouldnt be able to handle it and would thus give up their chance at salvation? Rather it has to be a gradual process order to work?

I think I have a better understanding of your eschatological views now, thanks. I guess I just feel like God would have a more effective and logical plan for bringing about the restoration of Eden. I dont get why God would purposely allow satan to control people, thus bringing about tons of preventable evil into the world. Do you really believe your eschatological views are the MOST effective, efficient, and logical way to bring about the restoration of Eden? And if so, why?

james2ko · May 21, 2012

punkdbass said:
You said it was contrary to "Biblical" teaching. The Tanakh or "Old Testament" as you call it is part of the Christian Bible, and in it I do not see the idea that salvation can only come through blood atonement(a.k.a Jesus), but rather I see other means for salvation (Enoch went to heaven without blood sacrifices,

1. Enoch going to heaven is contrary to John 3:13, which states, "no man [one] has ascended to heaven."Where was Enoch taken? Enoch, who was the seventh of eight preachers of righteousness (Gen. 5; II Pet. 2:4-5). Genesis 5:24 states, "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."Enoch "walked with God--faithfully obeyed God-- for 300 years (vs. 21-24), until his death. He "was not" in the sense that he "was not found" (Heb. 11:5). Verse 5 explains that God "translated" him; here, the Greek term for "translated" means "to transfer or transport."

God removed Enoch’s body to another location for burial (as He did with Moses, Deut. 34:6). The Greek word for "translated" is also used in Acts 7:16 to describe Jacob’s body being transported to Shechem for burial. If Enoch had been taken to heaven and is still living to this day, he would still be walking with God--present tense. Enoch is awaiting his resurrection with the other servants of God (Heb. 11:5, 39-40).

punkdbass said:
Nineveh was forgiven without blood,

2. The inhabitants of Nineveh were forgiven but were not yet offered eternal life. If you remember, they will be resurrected together with the men in Christ's generation to condemn them, which implies they will be in the second resurrection to physical life-not eternal life. The resurrection to eternal life occurs 1,000 years before.

punkdbass said:
Hosea teaches prayer can achieve atonement, Lev. 26 says exiled Jews who thus cant make sacrifices can confess and humble their hearts and achieve atonement, Psalm 51 says true sacrifice is a contrite heart and spirit, not blood offerings, etc)

3. God only offered salvation to a few individuals in the OT. Just as He offered spiritual salvation to a relative few in Christ's time and today. Salvation in the first resurrection is not open to the general public in this age, as evidenced by scriptures in my last few post.

punkdbass said:
In the NT, from what I've seen thus far, the issue of faith and works is not a simple concept, as there are often seemingly contradictory views. Paul and James are definitely at odds with each other for example, and I side with James view of the subject. James is crystal clear that faith alone can not save. Overall I'd say the NT preaches the idea that you need both faith and works for salvation. Perhaps my favorite verse in James is 2:18 "I by my works will show you my faith". If you equate faith to what lies in ones heart, then IMO good non Christians and Christians who do good acts with pure motives essentially have the same faith(hearts) and both would achieve salvation.

4. James tells us faith in Christ (Jas 2:1)--not ones heart-- together with works is what saves (Jas 2:14). Non-christians would be missing the former thus would not qualify for the first resurrection to eternal life.

punkdbass said:
So does satan test or control?

5. Biblical evidence indicates he has "restricted" freedoms. He can be used to test, as he did to Christ before He officially started His ministry. He can also be given permission to control elements of nature, as he did in the book of Job.

punkdbass said:
And I dont buy the reason that God would only need a limited number of "leaders," rather I think he would desire everyone to become leaders.

6. Not in the millennial kingdom. Perhaps after God's plan for humanity is complete and only spirit beings are left. God has promised those who overcome will inherit all things (Rev 21:7). Greek scholars agree the term "all things" pertains to the entire universe. We can speculate that He will give leadership responsibilities to those who repented in the second resurrection to perhaps govern human beings in the billions of uninhabited planets around the universe. This theory is supported by Isa 9:7:

Isa_9:7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end, Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.

punkdbass said:
Hmm so basically you think the reason God couldnt have just blatantly told everyone what they needed to do in life(and have them understand it) is because many people wouldnt be able to handle it and would thus give up their chance at salvation? Rather it has to be a gradual process order to work?

7. Building holy righteous character in a being is the only thing God cannot create instantaneously. It is produced, or developed only through experience and choice. This requires time and circumstances. So God created time and circumstances which are ingredients to producing character. Developing this righteous character is essential in tempering the awesome power and responsibility that comes with a supernatural spirit body. Thus God will not grant the amazing gift of eternal life to any Christian who refuses to build righteous character in this age or anyone in the next.

punkdbass said:
I think I have a better understanding of your eschatological views now, thanks. I guess I just feel like God would have a more effective and logical plan for bringing about the restoration of Eden. I dont get why God would purposely allow satan to control people, thus bringing about tons of preventable evil into the world.

8. The One who can remember the name (Ps 147:4) of all 300 sextillion stars (that's 300 with 21 zeros) and knows every hair on your head, felt experiencing both ways of life would be the best way for humans to contrast the difference between satan's way and His way and build righteous character. If God didn't do this, can't you just hear human beings whining to God, "NOT FAIR! How do we really know satans way isn't better, if you never gave us a chance to try it?"

punkdbass said:
Do you really believe your eschatological views are the MOST effective, efficient, and logical way to bring about the restoration of Eden?

9. Yes. Unless you can prove to me otherwise from both the Old and New testaments.

punkdbass said:
And if so, why?

10. Re-read the last few posts.

punkdbass · May 21, 2012

james2ko said:
1. Enoch going to heaven is contrary to John 3:13, which states, "no man [one] has ascended to heaven."Where was Enoch taken? Enoch, who was the seventh of eight preachers of righteousness (Gen. 5; II Pet. 2:4-5). Genesis 5:24 states, "And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him."Enoch "walked with God--faithfully obeyed God-- for 300 years (vs. 21-24), until his death. He "was not" in the sense that he "was not found" (Heb. 11:5). Verse 5 explains that God "translated" him; here, the Greek term for "translated" means "to transfer or transport."

God removed Enochs body to another location for burial (as He did with Moses, Deut. 34:6). The Greek word for "translated" is also used in Acts 7:16 to describe Jacobs body being transported to Shechem for burial. If Enoch had been taken to heaven and is still living to this day, he would still be walking with God--present tense. Enoch is awaiting his resurrection with the other servants of God (Heb. 11:5, 39-40).

You need to look at the Hebrew, not the Greek.. But anyways, the point still stands that Enoch righteously walked with God, without blood sacrifices. And that's interesting that you don't think he went to heaven, for many Christians I've debated with interpret it to mean he did go to heaven.

james2ko said:
2. The inhabitants of Nineveh were forgiven but were not yet offered eternal life. If you remember, they will be resurrected together with the men in Christ's generation to condemn them, which implies they will be in the second resurrection to physical life-not eternal life. The resurrection to eternal life occurs 1,000 years before.

I'm a bit surprised you admit that Nineveh was forgiven without blood, most Christian fundamentalists do everything they can to avoid admitting the possibility of forgiveness without blood(a.k.a the need for Jesus's blood sacrifice). But oh okay, do you mean the resurrection to eternal life occurs 1,000 years AFTER, or before? I'm a bit confused as to your order of the resurrections.

james2ko said:
4. James tells us faith in Christ (Jas 2:1)--not ones heart-- together with works is what saves (Jas 2:14). Non-christians would be missing the former thus would not qualify for the first resurrection to eternal l

I dont see how James 2:1 means you must have faith in Christ. But I will agree, that given James's audience, he was most likely talking to only followers of Jesus in which case it would be appropriate to describe them as having faith in Christ.

james2ko said:
5. Biblical evidence indicates he has "restricted" freedoms. He can be used to test, as he did to Christ before He officially started His ministry. He can also be given permission to control elements of nature, as he did in the book of Job.

As I already said I don't believe in a literal devil, but nonetheless, I can agree that "testing" would make sense. The moment you say Satan controls people is the moment you start to get some major theological problems in mind. The idea that Satan controls people simply takes away responsibility from man.. for if we do wrong, we could simply blame Satan for our sins instead of taking responsibility for them. And this is something I don't like at all. But I must admit that there are many temptations in life to do bad things, and the moment you take yourself down the slippery slope of giving in to temptation, it eventually gets to the point where you've pretty much given up your free will entirely, and have become an addict or slave to temptation. So only in this sense, I could agree that "satan" could control you, but at the same time I believe you will always have a certain level of free will(responsibility) left to overcome him, and ultimately you are still at fault for your sins, not Satan.

james2ko said:
7. Building holy righteous character in a being is the only thing God cannot create instantaneously. It is produced, or developed only through experience and choice. This requires time and circumstances. So God created time and circumstances which are ingredients to producing character. Developing this righteous character is essential in tempering the awesome power and responsibility that comes with a supernatural spirit body. Thus God will not grant the amazing gift of eternal life to any Christian who refuses to build righteous character in this age or anyone in the next.

Well said, well said. And I will admit that one needs to experience evil and suffering to build righteous character.

james2ko said:
9. Yes. Unless you can prove to me otherwise from both the Old and New testaments.

Perhaps someday

but for now, I simply don't have any concrete views on the afterlife, I'm more concerned with doing good in this life and serving God.

waitasec · May 21, 2012

james2ko said:
1. He spoke in parables to fulfill prophecy (Ps 78:2;Mat 13:34-35)

why?

2. Mixture of mercy and grace on God's part. Faith and reason on mine. It's the only version that makes any sense to me and is completely compatible with scripture, as evidenced by our many discussions and my discussions with others.

and it's all about you and your understanding that makes this understanding the right understanding

psst, you're not the only one who thinks like this you know

3. The only name under heaven by which men can be saved is Christ (Act 4:12)--not Mohammad. The Judaism you see today is not the religion God introduced to Moses and the Israelites at Sinai. True Christianity grew out of, and is an extension of, the religion originally given to the Israelites at Sinai. After all, the God of the OT Israelites was Christ Himself (1Co 10:4).

so then just your subjective understanding justifies skepticism
psst, you're not the only one who thinks like this you know

4. It is only unknown to those whom God has allowed the god of this age to blind, as the scriptures plainly reveal.

are you speaking as a chosen one whom god has allowed to reveal himself to?
psst, you're not the only one who thinks like this you know

5. I think of it this way. If you've read my post to Punkdbass, you would realize that God needs to do it this way. If He is going to reward someone an eternal, spirit body with great supernatural powers, He has to be sure they will not abuse that power at some point in eternity. What better way to ensure this does not happen by requiring His potential physical candidates to obey a being they cannot physically hear from or see, while enduring rigorous testing, trials, and problems from this same unempirical being.

do you believe god is avoiding the potential for another satan?

As far as God is concerned, if physically and mentally weak bodies, by comparison to immortal/angelic bodies, can faithfully obey someone unseen, how much more will they faithfully obey Him when they shed their corruptible physical bodies, see and speak to Him? Christ alluded to this:

John 20:29Jesus said to him, "Thomas, because you have seen Me, you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed."

Job went through a similar experience:

Job 42:5-6 "I have heard of You by the hearing of the ear, But now my eye sees You. 6 Therefore I abhor myself, And repent in dust and ashes."

that is disgusting...
and funny enough contradicting...if you abhor yourself, you would surely not be seeking to be saved now would you

6. If you read any of my post to Punkdbass, you should come to the conclusion that God would not eternally banish anyone without first giving them a satan-free opportunity to know Him. Besides, Christ said He did not come to judge unbelievers of this age, He came to save them:

Joh 12:47 And if anyone hears My words and does not believe, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world but to save the world.

He died at His first coming so those whom He blinded can have a second chance at life. When you're physically resurrected under Utopian conditions and personally meet Christ, Abraham, Moses, Elijah, hopefully me and the rest of His supernatural-hybrid beings, you'll hopefully have a different perspective.

and in the meantime...
lets condemn those homosexuals

sincerly · May 22, 2012

punkdbass said:
I am not equating preaching to understanding, I'm simply saying that since its very well possible that Jesus told the parables of Matthew 25 to nonbelievers, that it is possible their values and lessons could apply to them. Whether or not they understood them is irrelevant to the point I am trying to make. Okay so you agree that Jesus spoke to the non-Christians in parables, but you add that they did not understand until they converted. So there is a good chance the parables in Matthew 25 were told to the general public, but none of us can know. You can claim that they weren't, but you can't know. However, I still hold onto my opinion that the teachings and values present in the parables in Matthew 25 are universal in the sense that they apply to both followers and non-followers of Jesus. Like I said before, I really don't think its a stretch whatsoever to say that Matthew 25:31-46 means that when a non-Christian does an act of compassion to his fellow man, he is in effect showing that same compassion to Jesus, that is not to say that man will forsure go to heaven, but it at least leaves the door open for potential.

Hi punkdbass, I lost my previous reply( about five days ago) to this thread which is a spin-off from another thread---due to a heavy finger on the left clicker of the mouse.

Those parables actually started in context with Chapter 24---and are a series(7?) relating to end times events concerning which the Disciples had asked; and, also, the destruction of the temple.

The "Disciples came privately"---so they received the Parables---Not a general public. However, Mark 13; Luke 21:5-36; speak of these end times events---and they are written for the "general public". Just as Jesus had said in Matt.28:19,20, "Go Ye...teach all nations...to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you".
"Acts of compassion" are a part of the Believer's character; however, Salvation is obtained by and through the application of Jesus shed blood to atone for the Death penalty which a sinner can NOT pay himself and still live. Nor can a "non-Believer in Jesus Christ" obtain/secure Salvation only by "acts of compassion".(Thereby, "Denying Christ's death in one's place".)
Christ said, the doing was "to the least of these my brethren". While GOD is desireous to have all peoples saved, only those who Repent and Obey are among the saved.

punkdbass said:
Why would he not be trying to save the whole world in this age? Is not the messiah supposed to create world peace? (Micah 4:3-4, Isaiah 2:4, Isaiah 11:6)

The Lord GOD has been in the business of saving the world since Adam and Eve. That is the reason for the death of Jesus Christ. It is the reason for the "Go ye and tell". That "peaceful world" will be the "Earth made new"---Isa.66:22-23 This earth as we know it shall be destroyed as prophesied.

Punkdbass, There are only two resurrections which are 1000 years apart. The first is for those who have made the preparations and lived accordingly(those parables).
The second one is for those who knew and failed to make the required preparations and those who arrogantly/defiantly rejected GOD"s offer of Salvation.

There is NO more teaching to see if they will change their minds---GOD knows the hearts and minds of ALL prior to their deaths or the coming of Jesus Christ at the first resurrection.
As Rev.22:10-12, attests, "And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be."

Does Matthew 25:14-46 teach non-Christians can go to heaven?

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