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Buddha favors religion and shuns having no-religion

Viker

Häxan
Buddha says: “The gift of religion exceeds all gifts; the sweetness of religion exceeds all sweetness; the delight in religion exceeds all delights; the extinction of thirst overcomes all pain.” Verse- 49: Chapter – 48: THE DHAMMAPADA.

Gospel of Buddha

http://reluctant-messenger.com/gospel_buddha/

Paarsurrey comments: Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism do not subscribe to any religion; they rather abhor religion. Hence, they don’t belong to Buddha and Buddha does not belong to them.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Not all religions worship deities just as there are believers in gods who do not ascribe to any religion. You would need to read further to learn what the Buddha really implied, instead of having him endorse western religious concepts with one out of context quote.
 
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Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
The Atheists/Agnostics/Skeptics deny with very strong sentiments that they belong to any religion; so why should they be called to belong to a concept that they don't like to ascribe to?
Simple. It's not about atheists/agnostics/skeptics no more than theists/fence sitters/fundamentalists.
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
The Atheists/Agnostics/Skeptics deny with very strong sentiments that they belong to any religion; so why should they be called to belong to a concept that they don't like to ascribe to?

The translator probably just translated to the best of his abilities to what he felt were the words that best conveyed the meaning of the phrase. That said:

The original word was probably "dharma" (instead of religion), which can be translated as religion, philosophy, morality and number of other things.

I would subscribe humanism to be a dharma.

Dharma is a word much more ample than "religion", and
 

Me Myself

Back to my username
Not all religions worship deities just as there are believers in gods who do not ascribe to any religion. You would need to read further to learn what the Buddha really implied, instead of having him endorse western religious concepts with one out of context quote.

A very good Quote to put things into context on the main difference of his philosophy to one of the western religions is:

"Don't blindly believe what I say. Don't believe me because others convince you of my words. Don't believe anything you see, read, or hear from others, whether of authority, religious teachers or texts. Don't rely on logic alone, nor speculation. Don't infer or be deceived by appearances."

"Do not give up your authority and follow blindly the will of others. This way will lead to only delusion."

"Find out for yourself what is truth, what is real. Discover that there are virtuous things and there are non-virtuous things. Once you have discovered for yourself give up the bad and embrace the good."

- The Buddha
 

apophenia

Well-Known Member
If you follow the link to this translation, it is headed -

The Gospel of Buddha

Compiled from ancient records
by Paul Carus, 1894



So we are looking at a translation issue, as someone has already pointed out. Paul Carus has translated dharma as religion.

Here's another verse, also from chapter 48 -

Earnestness is the path of immortality,
thoughtlessness the path of death.
Those who are in earnest do not die;
those who are thoughtless are as if dead already.

Earnestness is the path of immortality ? Those who are in earnest do not die ?

Plenty of room for criticism of the translation I think.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
There's a fairly good article on the subject of "God" in Buddhist teaching at

God in Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thank you arthra.

Following passages hint that Buddha was not an atheist:

"The Buddha Gotama is portrayed not as an atheist who claims to be able to prove God's nonexistence, but rather as a skeptic with respect to other teachers' claims to be able to lead their disciples to the highest good."[23]
Citing the Devadaha Sutta ('Majjhima Nikaya 101), Hayes remarks that "while the reader is left to conclude that it is attachment rather than God, actions in past lives, fate, type of birth or efforts in this life that is responsible for our experiences of sorrow, no systematic argument is given in an attempt to disprove the existence of God."[24]

23. Hayes, Richard P., "Principled Atheism in the Buddhist Scholastic Tradition," Journal of Indian Philosophy, 16:1 (1988:Mar) pgs 5-6, 8
24. ^ Hayes, Richard P., "Principled Atheism in the Buddhist Scholastic Tradition," Journal of Indian Philosophy, 16:1 (1988:Mar) pgs 9-10

Buddhist scholar, Dr. B. Alan Wallace, has also indicated that saying that Buddhism as a whole is 'non-theistic' may be an over-simplification.

Zen Buddhist master Sokei-An, says:[40]

... dharmakaya [is] the equivalent of God
The Rinzai Zen Buddhist master, Soyen Shaku, speaking to Americans at the beginning of the 20th century, discusses how in essence the idea of God is not absent from Buddhism, when understood as ultimate, true Reality:[42]

At the outset, let me state that Buddhism is not atheistic as the term is ordinarily understood. It has certainly a God, the highest reality and truth, through which and in which this universe exists.

Similar God-like descriptions are encountered in the All-Creating King Tantra (Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra), where the universal Mind of Awakening (in its mode as "Samantabhadra Buddha") declares of itself:[48]

I am the core of all that exists. I am the seed of all that exists. I am the cause of all that exists. I am the trunk of all that exists. I am the foundation of all that exists. I am the root of existence. I am "the core" because I contain all phenomena. I am "the seed" because I give birth to everything. I am "the cause" because all comes from me. I am "the trunk" because the ramifications of every event sprout from me. I am "the foundation" because all abides in me. I am called "the root" because I am everything.

God in Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Thank you arthra.

Following passages hint that Buddha was not an atheist:

"The Buddha Gotama is portrayed not as an atheist who claims to be able to prove God's nonexistence, but rather as a skeptic with respect to other teachers' claims to be able to lead their disciples to the highest good."[23]
Citing the Devadaha Sutta ('Majjhima Nikaya 101), Hayes remarks that "while the reader is left to conclude that it is attachment rather than God, actions in past lives, fate, type of birth or efforts in this life that is responsible for our experiences of sorrow, no systematic argument is given in an attempt to disprove the existence of God."[24]

23. Hayes, Richard P., "Principled Atheism in the Buddhist Scholastic Tradition," Journal of Indian Philosophy, 16:1 (1988:Mar) pgs 5-6, 8
24. ^ Hayes, Richard P., "Principled Atheism in the Buddhist Scholastic Tradition," Journal of Indian Philosophy, 16:1 (1988:Mar) pgs 9-10

Buddhist scholar, Dr. B. Alan Wallace, has also indicated that saying that Buddhism as a whole is 'non-theistic' may be an over-simplification.

Zen Buddhist master Sokei-An, says:[40]

... dharmakaya [is] the equivalent of God
The Rinzai Zen Buddhist master, Soyen Shaku, speaking to Americans at the beginning of the 20th century, discusses how in essence the idea of God is not absent from Buddhism, when understood as ultimate, true Reality:[42]

At the outset, let me state that Buddhism is not atheistic as the term is ordinarily understood. It has certainly a God, the highest reality and truth, through which and in which this universe exists.

Similar God-like descriptions are encountered in the All-Creating King Tantra (Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra), where the universal Mind of Awakening (in its mode as "Samantabhadra Buddha") declares of itself:[48]

I am the core of all that exists. I am the seed of all that exists. I am the cause of all that exists. I am the trunk of all that exists. I am the foundation of all that exists. I am the root of existence. I am "the core" because I contain all phenomena. I am "the seed" because I give birth to everything. I am "the cause" because all comes from me. I am "the trunk" because the ramifications of every event sprout from me. I am "the foundation" because all abides in me. I am called "the root" because I am everything.

God in Buddhism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
You will need to re-examine how the term "God" applies when used by Buddhists. No Rinzai teacher uses "God" in the context you are attempting to portray here.
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
You will need to re-examine how the term "God" applies when used by Buddhists. No Rinzai teacher uses "God" in the context you are attempting to portray here.

I don't follow Buddhists or Buddhism; I follow Buddha, like I follow Jesus but not the Christians or the Christianity.
 

Tathagata

Freethinker


1. The Buddha said "Dharma" not "religion." That's a mistranslation.

2. The Buddha is not an Atheist, Theist, or Agnostic. His teaching transcends being and non-being, existence and non-existence. However, the Buddha explicitly rejected God and said clearly that there is no God. Someone on page 2 already posted all the Buddha verses where he rejects God. But it's like Osho said: I am not an Atheist neither am I Theist, God simply is not there.

3. The Buddha was NOT an Agnostic. It is scripturally false to say he was an Agnostic. He was in fact vehemently opposed to Agnosticism and he called them "evasive eel-wrigglers." See the Brahmajala Sutta and the Samannaphala Sutta.







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cablescavenger

Well-Known Member
Buddha says: “The gift of religion exceeds all gifts; the sweetness of religion exceeds all sweetness; the delight in religion exceeds all delights; the extinction of thirst overcomes all pain.” Verse- 49: Chapter – 48: THE DHAMMAPADA.

Gospel of Buddha

http://reluctant-messenger.com/gospel_buddha/

Paarsurrey comments: Atheism/Agnosticism/Skepticism do not subscribe to any religion; they rather abhor religion. Hence, they don’t belong to Buddha and Buddha does not belong to them.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

An Indian thought religion was important, are you sure this isn't a conspiracy theory? :rolleyes:
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member


1. The Buddha said "Dharma" not "religion." That's a mistranslation.

2. The Buddha is not an Atheist, Theist, or Agnostic. His teaching transcends being and non-being, existence and non-existence. However, the Buddha explicitly rejected God and said clearly that there is no God. Someone on page 2 already posted all the Buddha verses where he rejects God. But it's like Osho said: I am not an Atheist neither am I Theist, God simply is not there.

3. The Buddha was NOT an Agnostic. It is scripturally false to say he was an Agnostic. He was in fact vehemently opposed to Agnosticism and he called them "evasive eel-wrigglers." See the Brahmajala Sutta and the Samannaphala Sutta.







.
.

Nevertheless Buddha believed in the Creator God; and the source of his knowledge was enlightenment/revelation from the Creator God. Buddha's example has a strong similarity in Jesus. Jesus believed in ONE- the Creator God being himself a Jew, yet the Christians brought out Trinity, negating the express teachings of Jesus.

Buddha only denied strongly the wrong deities of the mislead contemporary Hinduism and intended to reform it; yet some 500 years after Buddha, the Buddhists started believing that Buddha did not believe in the Creator God.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Leaving any conspiracy theories aside; I will defend Buddha with good arguments here.
Your "arguments" thus far have lacked any substantive evidence.:shrug:

Why is it so important to to you that the Buddha must believe in, as you constantly put it, a "creator god"
 

Tathagata

Freethinker
Nevertheless Buddha believed in the Creator God; and the source of his knowledge was enlightenment/revelation from the Creator God. Buddha's example has a strong similarity in Jesus. Jesus believed in ONE- the Creator God being himself a Jew, yet the Christians brought out Trinity, negating the express teachings of Jesus.

Buddha only denied strongly the wrong deities of the mislead contemporary Hinduism and intended to reform it; yet some 500 years after Buddha, the Buddhists started believing that Buddha did not believe in the Creator God.

You are false.



The Buddha: "Others think that God is free creator of all things; clinging to these foolish notions, there is no awakening."
[Lankavatara Sutra]

The Buddha: "All such notions [of a] ...personal soul, Supreme Spirit, Sovereign God, Creator, are all figments of the imagination and manifestations of mind."
[Lankavatara Sutra]

The Buddha: "Let us, then, surrender the heresies of worshiping God and praying to him; let us not lose ourselves in vain speculations of profitless subtleties."
[Culla Vagga 6:2]





Please retract your false statements. You are scripturally wrong.

.
 

Tathagata

Freethinker
The atheists themselves strongly reject that they are any sort of religion; so why attribute something to them that they abhor so much?

You don't know what "Atheist" means apparently. No part of the definition of "Atheism" says "opposed to religion." Atheism means to "disbelieve in God." Buddhism, Jainism, and Taoism are all religions yet lack a belief in God. Therefore one can say that they are Atheistic religions.



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robo

Active Member
Why is it so important to to you that the Buddha must believe in, as you constantly put it, a "creator god"

This is a brilliant question posted to the OP!

The belief goes that the best way of Islamic dawah [proselytization] is to assimilate non-Muslim famous personalities within the fold of Islam. This the proselytizers do by quote-mining some obscure verses and then providing them an interpretation that will fit nicely within Islamic dogma but this is extremely uncharitable to the practitioners of the different faith that the famous personality belongs to.

Once they have a foothold, the hope is that you can raise the importance of Allah/Mohammed and slowly relegate the famous personality [in this case, Buddha] into the background.

Your "arguments" thus far have lacked any substantive evidence.

Indeed. This, and many threads posted by the same OP on how Buddha believed in a creator God, heaven, hell, etc. point out to some mischief motive when Buddhists themselves believe in none of these!
 

paarsurrey

Veteran Member
You don't know what "Atheist" means apparently. No part of the definition of "Atheism" says "opposed to religion." Atheism means to "disbelieve in God." Buddhism, Jainism, and Taoism are all religions yet lack a belief in God. Therefore one can say that they are Atheistic religions.



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I have been writing on the forums of atheists and the like; they hate to be called a religion.
 
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