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We Are All Atheists (+/- 1 Religion)

sonofskeptish

It is what it is
When it comes to the religion of others, it is easy to apply common sense and reason, and quickly discount their beliefs as false, and more often than not, downright ridiculous and absurd.

But when it comes to our own religious beliefs, we are somehow capable of suspecting critical thinking, and believe things that we would otherwise consider to be absurd.

Basically, we are all atheists when it comes to the religion of others.

So here is my question…

Using a religion you do not believe in, what do you think makes otherwise rational human beings capable of believing things that they would otherwise consider to be false or absurd?
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
When it comes to the religion of others, it is easy to apply common sense and reason, and quickly discount their beliefs as false, and more often than not, downright ridiculous and absurd.

But when it comes to our own religious beliefs, we are somehow capable of suspecting critical thinking, and believe things that we would otherwise consider to be absurd.

Basically, we are all atheists when it comes to the religion of others.

So here is my question…

Using a religion you do not believe in, what do you think makes otherwise rational human beings capable of believing things that they would otherwise consider to be false or absurd?

There are many things:

Fear listed as number one.
Emotion probably the second case, like "My life is depressing, I need a God"
False reason, such as reasoning that has been debunked by others but they either didn't know or didn't listen to those who've debunked the case.
Apathy can be a case where people don't care to study that they're wrong and will just believe what they believe, careless if they're wrong.
Raised the faith is likely another case.

Possibly many more than that, but that's what I got.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
When it comes to the religion of others, it is easy to apply common sense and reason, and quickly discount their beliefs as false, and more often than not, downright ridiculous and absurd.

But when it comes to our own religious beliefs, we are somehow capable of suspecting critical thinking, and believe things that we would otherwise consider to be absurd.

Basically, we are all atheists when it comes to the religion of others.

So here is my question…

Using a religion you do not believe in, what do you think makes otherwise rational human beings capable of believing things that they would otherwise consider to be false or absurd?

I disagree with the premise of your thread. Many people (including myself) are not atheists +/- 1. I think all the major religions of the world are basically good although they may have some points I disagree on. You are kind of saying we have to consider another religion to be either right or wrong. I see a middle path.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
I disagree with the premise of your thread. Many people (including myself) are not atheists +/- 1. I think all the major religions of the world are basically good although they may have some points I disagree on. You are kind of saying we have to consider another religion to be either right or wrong. I see a middle path.

The central premise of most religions are contradictory and thus they cannot all be right.
For instance, the pantheistic gods of Hinduism cannot exist next to the exclusivist god of the Bible and the Quran.
They can't both be right.

Also, most religious concepts work on this same black/white scale.
Odin either exists or he does not.
Reincarnation either works or it doesn't.
Jesus was either the son of a god or he wasn't.

As for your first point, whether something is 'good' (whatever that means in this context) has absolutely no impact on whether something is true.
 
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Student of X

Paradigm Shifter
When it comes to the religion of others, it is easy to apply common sense and reason, and quickly discount their beliefs as false, and more often than not, downright ridiculous and absurd.

But when it comes to our own religious beliefs, we are somehow capable of suspecting critical thinking, and believe things that we would otherwise consider to be absurd.

Basically, we are all atheists when it comes to the religion of others.

So here is my question…

Using a religion you do not believe in, what do you think makes otherwise rational human beings capable of believing things that they would otherwise consider to be false or absurd?

Religion is my religion. There are no religions I don't believe in, because I know what religion really is.

BTW Family Guy sucks.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
The central premise of most religions are contradictory and thus they cannot all be right.

I said all major religions are basically good, I did not say they were all 100% right. The central premise of religions
(leading a moral life pleases god) is not contradictory but the details can be contradictory.

For instance, the pantheistic gods of Hinduism cannot exist next to the exclusivist god of the Bible and the Quran.
They can't both be right.

They don't have to agree 100% to be basically good. I am Advaitan (non-dual hinduism) and personally believe that to be
the most correct. However, the God concept is impossible for us to fully wrap our minds around and teachers have tried to
present it in different ways to people of different educational levels and cultures. BTW, the pantheistic label on
hinduism was originally placed by early christian researchers who didn't grasp Indian concepts. From the hindu scriptures
'the thousand gods are just my thousand faces'.

Also, most religious concepts work on this same black/white scale.

I argue it's not black/white at all, but deep and difficult.

Odin either exists or he does not.

I have vaguely heard of Odin and no nothing about him. Mankind has gone from the ape stage to the internet age in many
small steps and missteps. Many tribes/groups through that evolution had their isolated beliefs about supernatural things
and many sound absurd to us today. The Odin's of the past largely died out on the evolutionary struggle of man's growing
intelligence and have been almost totally replaced by the major religions of the modern world.

Reincarnation either works or it doesn't.

I believe reincarnation is real. Any teaching that does not include this I don't feel is 100% correct. A religion can be
wrong on some points and still be basically good.


Jesus was either the son of a god or he wasn't.

Wrong because not everyone agrees what the term 'the son of a god' actually means. I personally don't use the term in
describing Jesus. Christian religions that do can still be basically good.


As for your first point, whether something is 'good' (whatever that means in this context) has absolutely no impact on whether something is true.

'Good' in this sense is basically encouraging its followers to follow a moral life and to 'do unto others as you would
have them do unto you'. Religions great step forward came when they moved past the idea of sacrificing to and appeasing
gods to the concept of a god pleased by good moral behavior. There's still a lot of evolution needed though in my
opinion.
 

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
Basically, we are all atheists when it comes to the religion of others.
The ways and reasons you're wrong have been explained in about 5 threads over the last week or so. Is there a reason you're wasting our time with another?
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
I disagree with the premise of your thread. Many people (including myself) are not atheists +/- 1. I think all the major religions of the world are basically good although they may have some points I disagree on. You are kind of saying we have to consider another religion to be either right or wrong. I see a middle path.

What do you mean by "basically good"? There's a difference between thinking that a religion induces good behaviour and believing that its tenets are factually true.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
What do you mean by "basically good"? There's a difference between thinking that a religion induces good behaviour and believing that its tenets are factually true.

By 'basically good' I mean they induce moral behavior and provide a sense of meaning and community to its adherents. The adherents are bettered by the religion's existence.

I do not believe all the tenets of all the world religions are factually true though.

Also the rank and file adherent sees the institutions as a moral foundation and they do not concern themselves much with the challenging aspects of their tenets (they leave that to higher ups in their religion and RF'ers to endlessly debate). I think as education and information increases more and more will challenge the tenets.
 

Breathe

Hostis humani generis
Using a religion you do not believe in, what do you think makes otherwise rational human beings capable of believing things that they would otherwise consider to be false or absurd?
My opinion:

They are looking at the Divine from another lens and angle.

I would not say it is false, nor would I say it is absurd. It is their understanding of the Truth. It may not be the same as mine, and I may not agree with it to varying degrees, I do believe that they are looking at it from their own angle and from their own upbringing.

Projecting, too, but that's to be expected with the majority of humans having to anthromorphise their own conception of Divinity in order to relate to it. I believe almost all -- if not all -- religions anthromorphise and project things onto this Transcendent Divinity, this... this... That. That's what happens when you describe the indescribable, really.

I'm also not an atheist +/- 1 Religion. I'm syncretic. Plus, you can be a theist without a religion; and of course, an atheist with religion.

My $0.02.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
I said all major religions are basically good, I did not say they were all 100% right. The central premise of religions
(leading a moral life pleases god) is not contradictory but the details can be contradictory.

Then we seem to disagree about what the central premise of the major religions is, which is, of course fine.
If we take Christianity, for instance, I find that the central premise is a belief in the Christian god and that Jesus was his son.
As far as I see it everything about the religion falls apart if this central premise is not, in fact, true, which is the crux (no pun intended) of my argument.

I'll deal with your argument about the 'goodness' of religion below.

They don't have to agree 100% to be basically good. I am Advaitan (non-dual hinduism) and personally believe that to be
the most correct. However, the God concept is impossible for us to fully wrap our minds around and teachers have tried to
present it in different ways to people of different educational levels and cultures.

Oh, how I loathe these 'god moves in mysterious ways' arguments... :D
To me stating that something is impossible to understand is a cop-out of such magnitudes that I can barely express it. :D

BTW, the pantheistic label on
hinduism was originally placed by early christian researchers who didn't grasp Indian concepts. From the hindu scriptures
'the thousand gods are just my thousand faces'.

Fair enough.
I merely used it as an example of concepts that are mutually exclusive, of which there are many.
If you want I can easily find others.

I argue it's not black/white at all, but deep and difficult.

Well, a statement or an explanation is either correct, or it is not.
I don't see how it can be any other way.
Of course, an explanation can be partially correct, but then it is of vital importance to determine which parts are correct and not.

I have vaguely heard of Odin and no nothing about him. Mankind has gone from the ape stage to the internet age in many
small steps and missteps. Many tribes/groups through that evolution had their isolated beliefs about supernatural things
and many sound absurd to us today.

Just about all religious and supernatural beliefs, present and former, sound absurd to me, but that is a different discussion. ;)

The Odin's of the past largely died out on the evolutionary struggle of man's growing intelligence and have been almost totally replaced by the major religions of the modern world.

Usually they were replaced by the religions that are now the major religions of the world, and generally not through the use of intelligent discourse.

I believe reincarnation is real. Any teaching that does not include this I don't feel is 100% correct. A religion can be wrong on some points and still be basically good.

False beliefs are never good in my opinion, but even if they were, I would still prefer to face reality as it is, rather than as I'd want it to be.

Wrong because not everyone agrees what the term 'the son of a god' actually means. I personally don't use the term in describing Jesus. Christian religions that do can still be basically good.

Well, according to the Bible the term is rather specific.
And that chain of events either took place, or they did not.

'Good' in this sense is basically encouraging its followers to follow a moral life and to 'do unto others as you would
have them do unto you'. Religions great step forward came when they moved past the idea of sacrificing to and appeasing
gods to the concept of a god pleased by good moral behavior. There's still a lot of evolution needed though in my
opinion.

The Golden Rule does not have religious origins and humans do not need religion to be 'good', whatever we decide that term should mean.
Morals are also subjective and change from society to society and also over time, which means that while I might be considered a 'good' person in Norway of today, I probably would not have been considered a 'good' person a couple of hundred years ago, or in a different society.

And yet, all of this is irrelevant to the point I was making.
Whether a belief is good in the sense that it encourages people to be moral still has no impact on whether the belief itself is true and correct.
And currently there is no reason to think that any sort of supernatural entities exist or that the religious beliefs connected to them carry any sort of validity.
 

A Troubled Man

Active Member
Using a religion you do not believe in, what do you think makes otherwise rational human beings capable of believing things that they would otherwise consider to be false or absurd?

Indoctrination. The acceptance of any given doctrine, willfully and without question. Thus, with the acceptance of a given doctrine, all other doctrines are considered false if they don't align with the accepted doctrine.
 

painted wolf

Grey Muzzle
When it comes to the religion of others, it is easy to apply common sense and reason, and quickly discount their beliefs as false, and more often than not, downright ridiculous and absurd.

But when it comes to our own religious beliefs, we are somehow capable of suspecting critical thinking, and believe things that we would otherwise consider to be absurd.

Basically, we are all atheists when it comes to the religion of others.

So here is my question…

Using a religion you do not believe in, what do you think makes otherwise rational human beings capable of believing things that they would otherwise consider to be false or absurd?
Actually, I'm pretty agnostic about other religions, I don't reject them totally but I'm also not convinced by them.

I participate in my religion because I choose to as an expression of culture and because I generally agree with the philosophy behind it.

wa:do
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Oh, how I loathe these 'god moves in mysterious ways' arguments... :D
To me stating that something is impossible to understand is a cop-out of such magnitudes that I can barely express it. :D

I never implied 'god moves in mysterious ways'. Man has a limited ability to fully grasp the immense universe with its multitude of levels and dimensions. I would like to know everything but I don't:D We evolved from ape like beings with a brain designed to be succesful in the natural environment of earth. We are great at that but to think about a spiritual world beyond our five senses that doesn't operate and behave like the world we evolved in is beyond us. We can grasp a simplified version of these other levels and dimensions. We just don't think well beyond three dimensions.


Well, a statement or an explanation is either correct, or it is not.
I don't see how it can be any other way.
Of course, an explanation can be partially correct, but then it is of vital importance to determine which parts are correct and not.

The first and third sentences above are direct contradiction of each other:D The third sentence I fully agree with.


Just about all religious and supernatural beliefs, present and former, sound absurd to me, but that is a different discussion. ;)

Lets have that discussion a moment.

I am an ex-atheist so I understand what you mean. I even briefly went to your website (nice job). However my change was ignited by my study of the huge world of paranormal phenomena. The evidence suggesting there is conciousness without a physical brain is stunningly strong and IMO is largely and unfairly dismissed by main-stream scientists (with some important exceptions). The stories of near death experiencers recalling events in the hospital that occured beyond the room they were in was good reading and after several stories quite compelling.

One web-site with a great collection of after life evidence is www.victorzammit.com

Later on I self-studied Theosophy and they are about the best source for giving you a framework/model of how the spiritual realms are layed out. I saw how the anecdotal stories in the paranormal material actually made sense within Theosophy's framework/model of the supernatural realms.

Theosophy has some other strange things that I don't follow. I'm not a Theosophist but there framework/model of the supernatural realms should be considered.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
I never implied 'god moves in mysterious ways'. Man has a limited ability to fully grasp the immense universe with its multitude of levels and dimensions. I would like to know everything but I don't:D We evolved from ape like beings with a brain designed to be succesful in the natural environment of earth. We are great at that but to think about a spiritual world beyond our five senses that doesn't operate and behave like the world we evolved in is beyond us. We can grasp a simplified version of these other levels and dimensions. We just don't think well beyond three dimensions.

I agree with almost everything you say here, but when someone 'explains' by stating that it is impossible to understand, they haven't explained anything at all. When (some) theists come up against illogical or unpleasant facets of their notion of god they sometimes use the 'god moves in mysterious ways' or 'you can't expect to understand god' excuse to avoid having to say 'I don't know'.
But in this they fail to consider the obvious possibility that the god they envision might just not exist at all, and that that is why he/she is impossible to understand. As Hitchen's would have put it; if you argue for the goodness of god you also have to explain bone-cancer in kids.
Now, I'm not saying that this was what you did, or even intended, but I would rather someone tell me that they don't know than to tell me that it is unknowable. It is much more honest and covers the same ground. :)

The first and third sentences above are direct contradiction of each other:D The third sentence I fully agree with.

No, they do not.
An explanation can, and often do, contain more than one statement, each of which must be checked for validity. ;)

Lets have that discussion a moment.

Alright. :)

I am an ex-atheist so I understand what you mean. I even briefly went to your website (nice job). However my change was ignited by my study of the huge world of paranormal phenomena. The evidence suggesting there is conciousness without a physical brain is stunningly strong and IMO is largely and unfairly dismissed by main-stream scientists (with some important exceptions). The stories of near death experiencers recalling events in the hospital that occured beyond the room they were in was good reading and after several stories quite compelling.

One web-site with a great collection of after life evidence is www.victorzammit.com

Later on I self-studied Theosophy and they are about the best source for giving you a framework/model of how the spiritual realms are layed out. I saw how the anecdotal stories in the paranormal material actually made sense within Theosophy's framework/model of the supernatural realms.

Theosophy has some other strange things that I don't follow. I'm not a Theosophist but there framework/model of the supernatural realms should be considered.

I will take a closer look at the website later (as I'm off to work), but I'll say for now that I am very sceptical about claims like this, and all the 'evidence' I've seen for an afterlife thus far has not stood up to scrutiny. Mostly they are based on anecdotes and there is a very good reason anecdotes are not accepted as evidence in science, which is the standard it would have to pass for me to include it as valid. Also, there are generally more likely explanations available that the researchers often fail to consider/include. :)
 

MichaelAvery

New Member
When it comes to the religion of others, it is easy to apply common sense and reason, and quickly discount their beliefs as false, and more often than not, downright ridiculous and absurd.

But when it comes to our own religious beliefs, we are somehow capable of suspecting critical thinking, and believe things that we would otherwise consider to be absurd.

Basically, we are all atheists when it comes to the religion of others.

So here is my question…
Using a religion you do not believe in, what do you think makes otherwise rational human beings capable of believing things that they would otherwise consider to be false or absurd?

Only personnel exsperiences or prediction accuracy.
 
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