What Makes Jesus The Son Of God.The Son Of God Theory.

Binyamin said:

I didn't say you were... I'm just pointing out what was said... He claimed the promise of Avraham includes the coming of Jesus, I just don't see it in Genesis...

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It surely is not explicit.
I find it interesting, however that the lineage of all those Prophets of all those religions traces its way back to a common root - Abraham. To me that implicitly fulfills the promise of Abraham. Though I realize that you decline to follow that line of reasoning because it has no meaning to you.
I don't worry about that, because you are (in my opinion) well protected in the religion of God, regardless of your acceptance or denial of later covenants. The average Christian does not seem to be willing to let someone slide on this issue, unfortunately.

Regards,
Scott

Popeyesays said:

It surely is not explicit.
I find it interesting, however that the lineage of all those Prophets of all those religions traces its way back to a common root - Abraham. To me that implicitly fulfills the promise of Abraham. Though I realize that you decline to follow that line of reasoning because it has no meaning to you.
I don't worry about that, because you are (in my opinion) well protected in the religion of God, regardless of your acceptance or denial of later covenants. The average Christian does not seem to be willing to let someone slide on this issue, unfortunately.

Regards,
Scott

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Thanks, but the claim was that the promise of Avraham includes G-d saying that Jesus will come. I simply asked the person who made this atrocious claim to back it up.

Jesus is the spiritual light of God.The message of Jesus is to love one another and truth and you fulfill the law of God.No traditions of men required.Jesus frees mankind from bondage to traditions of men.Basically makes all religions obsolete.

If we consider God as a father, all men are God's sons and all women are God's daughters. So Jesus is a brother. And I think, Jesus would prefer to be a brother than a Lord.

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Not accourding to Paul, who says that Jesus is the head of man.

have heard that in the Arabic Bible, the term used for son is 'abd, which means slave or servant, and for father it is rabb, which means lord, or the one who sustains. So I dont think that the terms 'father' and 'son' should be taken lliterally.

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This is Biblical contradictied in several spots, and it's addressed in the original post. Jesus was killed specifically for claiming to be the son of God.

Jesus is the spiritual light of God.The message of Jesus is to love one another and truth and you fulfill the law of God.No traditions of men required.Jesus frees mankind from bondage to traditions of men.Basically makes all religions obsolete.

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That is a religion.

Do you not believe the Old Testament scriptures speak of a coming Messiah, they were, and some still all except Messianic Jews, looking for the coming Messiah. This Messiah would bless all nations, and I believe the blessing is due to His coming to die for the sins of the world, that all who believe shall be freely pardoned and imputed with His righteousness, and thus be able to live in the presence of Holy God. Christ expounded to the disciples how that he must suffer and die for the sins of the world. He asked them, do you not know the scriptures? These things must first be fulfilled. The first prophecy of this is in Genesis where it says of Satan or the serpent, in Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Meaning to me, that Jesus, the seed of a woman, as he was conceived of the Holy Spirit and not man, will defeat satan at the cross, bruising his head, taking much power from him, for his death would mean eternal life for all who believe. And Jesus' heel being bruised signifying his death on the cross, but it would be nothing but a 'bruise to his heel', for he would rise triumphant from the grave. Perhaps we Christians read too much into that, but that is what I have been taught all my life.
Sincerely,
Joeboonda

Why is it even seen as a theory. It's absolute, no doubt. How many scriptures have to be quoted to get the point across, that Jesus is the Son of God.


TIME and again, Jesus made statements such as: "The Son cannot do anything at his own pleasure, he can only do what he sees his Father doing." (John 5:19, The Holy Bible, by Monsignor R. A. Knox) "I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me." (John 6:38) "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me." (John 7:16) Is not the sender superior to the one sent?

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT said:

Why is it even seen as a theory. It's absolute, no doubt. How many scriptures have to be quoted to get the point across, that Jesus is the Son of God.


TIME and again, Jesus made statements such as: "The Son cannot do anything at his own pleasure, he can only do what he sees his Father doing." (John 5:19, The Holy Bible, by Monsignor R. A. Knox) "I have come down from heaven to do, not my will, but the will of him that sent me." (John 6:38) "What I teach is not mine, but belongs to him that sent me." (John 7:16) Is not the sender superior to the one sent?

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And to why do you assume that the Son is Jesus and the Father is God. Interpitation is key here.

Terra Flata

terraflata said:

And to why do you assume that the Son is Jesus and the Father is God. Interpitation is key here.

Terra Flata

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Well, how do you interpret that scripture? Besides, there are thousands of verses i can use. Consider the following.


After they had withdrawn, look! Jehovah’s angel appeared in a dream to Joseph, saying: “Get up, take the young child and its mother and flee into Egypt, and stay there until I give you word; for Herod is about to search for the young child to destroy it.” 14 So he got up and took along the young child and its mother by night and withdrew into Egypt, 15 and he stayed there until the decease of Herod, for that to be fulfilled which was spoken by Jehovah through his prophet, saying: “Out of Egypt I called my son.”

Notice.."....jehovah through his prophet, saying "Out of Egypt I called MY SON'

After being baptized Jesus immediately came up from the water; and, look! the heavens were opened up, and he saw descending like a dove God’s spirit coming upon him. 17 Look! Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: “This is my Son, the beloved, whom I have approved.”

Would you like to give your own interpretations of these scriptures, or are they not already clear enough?

Jesus showed that he was a creature separate from God and that he, Jesus, had a God above him, a God whom he worshiped, a God whom he called "Father." In prayer to God, that is, the Father, Jesus said, "You, the only true God." (John 17:3) At John 20:17 he said to Mary Magdalene: "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God." (RS, Catholic edition) At 2 Corinthians 1:3 the apostle Paul confirms this relationship: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ." Since Jesus had a God, his Father, he could not at the same time be that God.

The apostle Paul had no reservations about speaking of Jesus and God as distinctly separate: "For us there is one God, the Father, . . . and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ." (1 Corinthians 8:6, JB)


Jesus' own prayers are a powerful example of his inferior position. When Jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "Father, if you wish, remove this cup from me. Nevertheless, let, not my will, but yours take place." (Luke 22:42) To whom was he praying? To a part of himself? No, he was praying to someone entirely separate, his Father, God, whose will was superior and could be different from his own, the only One able to "remove this cup."

Why would God pray to himself? Can you give me a reasonable explanation?

Then, as he neared death, Jesus cried out: "My God, my God, why have you deserted me?" (Mark 15:34, JB) To whom was Jesus crying out? To himself or to part of himself? Surely, that cry, "My God," was not from someone who considered himself to be God. And if Jesus were God, then by whom was he deserted? Himself? That would not make sense. Jesus also said: "Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit." (Luke 23:46) If Jesus were God, for what reason should he entrust his spirit to the Father?

WHEN Jesus gave his prophecy about the end of this system of things, he stated: "But of that day or that hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Mark 13:32, RS, Catholic edition) Had Jesus been the equal Son part of a Godhead, he would have known what the Father knows. But Jesus did not know, for he was not equal to God.


Another few points.

1. God cannot be seen. Jesus was seen

2. God cannot die. Jesus died.

3. At MATTHEW 4:1, Jesus is spoken of as being "tempted by the Devil." After showing Jesus "all the kingdoms of the world and their glory," Satan said: "All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me." (Matthew 4:8, 9) Satan was trying to cause Jesus to be disloyal to God.
But what test of loyalty would that be if Jesus were God? Could God rebel against himself? No, but angels and humans could rebel against God and did. The temptation of Jesus would make sense only if he was, not God, but a separate individual who had his own free will, one who could have been disloyal had he chosen to be, such as an angel or a human.


Do you need any more scriptures?

joeboonda said:

Do you not believe the Old Testament scriptures speak of a coming Messiah, they were, and some still all except Messianic Jews, looking for the coming Messiah.

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I'm a Messianic Jew, I believe in the concept of a Messiah.

joeboonda said:

This Messiah would bless all nations, and I believe the blessing is due to His coming to die for the sins of the world, that all who believe shall be freely pardoned and imputed with His righteousness, and thus be able to live in the presence of Holy God.

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Well, it might help if you had scripture to back this up. Not NT scripture either.

joeboonda said:

Christ expounded to the disciples how that he must suffer and die for the sins of the world.

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Okay, good for him.

joeboonda said:

He asked them, do you not know the scriptures? These things must first be fulfilled.

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Okay.

joeboonda said:

The first prophecy of this is in Genesis where it says of Satan or the serpent, in Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel. Meaning to me, that Jesus, the seed of a woman, as he was conceived of the Holy Spirit and not man, will defeat satan at the cross, bruising his head, taking much power from him, for his death would mean eternal life for all who believe.

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I think this is the biggest difference, you look for ways to say this forshadows Christ. The fact remains that the Torah, from the Jewish perspective, doesn't include Messianic prophecies. Messianic propheicies to which there are only a couple dozen, have never been fullfilled by anyone. I think Jesus fit 1-2 of them, and failed the rest, although I don't have the liste in front of me.

joeboonda said:

And Jesus' heel being bruised signifying his death on the cross, but it would be nothing but a 'bruise to his heel', for he would rise triumphant from the grave. Perhaps we Christians read too much into that, but that is what I have been taught all my life.

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Trust me, you read way too much into everywhere. Also, what Messianic prophecy states he will have a bruise on his heel? I have a bruise on my heel, I guess I fit that Messianic prophecy.

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT said:

Why is it even seen as a theory. It's absolute, no doubt. How many scriptures have to be quoted to get the point across, that Jesus is the Son of God.

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http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23224

I'll await your response.

I've addressed 4 of the BIGGEST references from the Christian perspective that Jesus is Messiah.

And, "G-d works in mysterious ways", isn't a counter argument.

P.S. I did find it HILARIOUS when your friend cited scripture where one verse above it says that the person will admit he is a false prophet.

Binyamin said:

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=23224

I'll await your response.

I've addressed 4 of the BIGGEST references from the Christian perspective that Jesus is Messiah.

And, "G-d works in mysterious ways", isn't a counter argument.

P.S. I did find it HILARIOUS when your friend cited scripture where one verse above it says that the person will admit he is a false prophet.

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What are you trying to accomplish with this post?

'Therefore, the Lord, of His own, shall give you a sign; behold, the young woman is with child, and she shall bear a son, and she shall call his name Immanuel.
-----So G-d is going to give King Ahaz the sign.
Now before I continue on, very simple question, did G-d give Ahaz this sign??? Remember this is 700+ years before Jesus was born. So to believe this verse talks about Jesus is VERY idiotic. Imagine Ahaz's reaction if Isaiah said what you believe, "Don't worry King Ahaz, you won't need to fear the attack by Aram and Ephraim because Behold! G-d will give you a sign, in 700 + years a guy named Jesus is going to come. How idiotic would Isaiah have looked? He probably would have been killed for such a stupid and idiotic prophecy - if this was about Jesus-.'

14 Therefore Jehovah himself will give YOU men a sign: Look! The maiden herself will actually become pregnant, and she is giving birth to a son, and she will certainly call his name Im·man´u·el. 15 Butter and honey he will eat by the time that he knows how to reject the bad and choose the good. 16 For before the boy will know how to reject the bad and choose the good, the ground of whose two kings you are feeling a sickening dread will be left entirely.


Immanuel means 'With us is God'. Afterall, God is with Judah and will not allow his covenant with David to be nullified. In addition, Ahaz and his people are told not only what God will do but when he will do it. Before the boy Immanuel is old enough to distinguish between good and bad, the enemy nations will be destroyed.
The bible does not reveal whose child immanuel is. But since the young Immanuel is to serve as a sign and Isiah later states that he and his children are as signs Imannuel may be a son of a prophet.
I have not said Immauel is Jesus in this verse. The greater immanuel however is Jesus which is mentioned in matthew 1:23. MAtthew applies the prophesy of immanuels birth to the birth of Jesus, the rightful heir to David's throne.

The birth of the first immanuel was a sign that God had not forsaken the house of David. Likewise, the birth of Jesus, the greater immanuel was a sign that God had not forsaken mankind or his kingdom covenatnt with Davids house.

Luke 1:31-33 31 and, look! you will conceive in your womb and give birth to a son, and you are to call his name Jesus. 32 This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High; and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father, 33 and he will rule as king over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no end of his kingdom.”

Maybe you have mistaken me with someone else's beliefs but the the verse you refer to is indeed not referring to Jesus. However, i fail to understand why you have tried to point this out to me?

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT said:

Maybe you have mistaken me with someone else's beliefs but the the verse you refer to is indeed not referring to Jesus. However, i fail to understand why you have tried to point this out to me?

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Good we agree on Isaiah 7:14. What about Isaiah 53? Zachariah 12:10 and 13:6? Psalm 22:16? I think we're making great progress going through these one at a time.

[quote="ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT]Why is it even seen as a theory. It's absolute, no doubt. How many scriptures have to be quoted to get the point across, that Jesus is the Son of God. [/quote]Or instead of me guessing which scripture you believe to be talking about Jesus, you can just give me some verses so I dont have to guess which sect of Christianity you adhere to and then which of the 'propheicies' you believe to talk about Mr. J.

Binyamin said:

Good we agree on Isaiah 7:14. What about Isaiah 53? Zachariah 12:10 and 13:6? Psalm 22:16? I think we're making great progress going through these one at a time.

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Ok, a little look at Isiah 52 and 53.

As you well know isiah had just finished telling the jews of their release from exile in Babylon. Now, in Isiah 52:13 it reads

Look! My servant will act with insight. He will be in high station and will certainly be elevated and exalted very much.

Over the centuries, Jewish Scholars have given various opinions on who the servant is. Some claim it is the nation of Israel as a whole during its babylonian exile. This does not fit prophesy tough. God's servant suffers voluntarily. Althoug innocent, he suffers for the sins of others. THis hardly describes the Hewish nation as it went into exile for its sinful ways. (read 2 kings 21:11-15)

To some extent, during the early centuries of the common era, a few Jewish scholars did apply this prophesy to the Messiah. That this is the correct application is seen in the Christian Greek scriptures. The book of acts reports that when the Ethiopian eunach said that he didnt know the identity of the servant in Isiah's prophesy, Phillip 'declared to him the good news of Jeses. (read Acts 8:26-40 and Isiah 53:7,8)

And I quote Acts 8:28 -34
28 but he was returning and was sitting in his chariot and reading aloud the prophet Isaiah. 29 So the spirit said to Philip: “Approach and join yourself to this chariot.” 30 Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?” 31 He said: “Really, how could I ever do so, unless someone guided me?” And he entreated Philip to get on and sit down with him. 32 Now the passage of Scripture that he was reading aloud was this: “As a sheep he was brought to the slaughter, and as a lamb that is voiceless before its shearer, so he does not open his mouth. 33 During his humiliation the judgment was taken away from him. Who will tell the details of his generation? Because his life is taken away from the earth.”
34 In answer the eunuch said to Philip: “I beg you, About whom does the prophet say this? About himself or about some other man?” 35 Philip opened his mouth and, starting with this Scripture, he declared to him the good news about Jesus.


Here, the eunuch is reading Isiah 53: 7,8 which reads

7 He was hard pressed, and he was letting himself be afflicted; yet he would not open his mouth. He was being brought just like a sheep to the slaughtering; and like a ewe that before her shearers has become mute, he also would not open his mouth.
8 Because of restraint and of judgment he was taken away; and who will concern himself even with [the details of] his generation? For he was severed from the land of the living ones. Because of the transgression of my people he had the stroke.

There are undeniable parralels with the one God calls 'My slave' and Jesus.

Lets take a look again Isiah 52:13 again.

Look! My servant will act with insight. He will be in high station and will certainly be elevated and exalted very much


Jesus did 'act with insight showing understanding of Bible prophecies that applied to him and being guided by them to do the will of God, his father. (read John 17:4 and 19:30)


so, thats just a few points. Im a JW by the way, if in any doubt. Do you belong to a religion?

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT said:

Ok, a little look at Isiah 52 and 53.

As you well know isiah had just finished telling the jews of their release from exile in Babylon. Now, in Isiah 52:13 it reads

Look! My servant will act with insight. He will be in high station and will certainly be elevated and exalted very much.

Over the centuries, Jewish Scholars have given various opinions on who the servant is. Some claim it is the nation of Israel as a whole during its babylonian exile. This does not fit prophesy tough. God's servant suffers voluntarily. Althoug innocent, he suffers for the sins of others. THis hardly describes the Hewish nation as it went into exile for its sinful ways. (read 2 kings 21:11-15)

To some extent, during the early centuries of the common era, a few Jewish scholars did apply this prophesy to the Messiah. That this is the correct application is seen in the Christian Greek scriptures. The book of acts reports that when the Ethiopian eunach said that he didnt know the identity of the servant in Isiah's prophesy, Phillip 'declared to him the good news of Jeses. (read Acts 8:26-40 and Isiah 53:7,8)

And I quote Acts 8:28 -34
28 but he was returning and was sitting in his chariot and reading aloud the prophet Isaiah. 29 So the spirit said to Philip: “Approach and join yourself to this chariot.” 30 Philip ran alongside and heard him reading aloud Isaiah the prophet, and he said: “Do you actually know what you are reading?” 31 He said: “Really, how could I ever do so, unless someone guided me?” And he entreated Philip to get on and sit down with him. 32 Now the passage of Scripture that he was reading aloud was this: “As a sheep he was brought to the slaughter, and as a lamb that is voiceless before its shearer, so he does not open his mouth. 33 During his humiliation the judgment was taken away from him. Who will tell the details of his generation? Because his life is taken away from the earth.”
34 In answer the eunuch said to Philip: “I beg you, About whom does the prophet say this? About himself or about some other man?” 35 Philip opened his mouth and, starting with this Scripture, he declared to him the good news about Jesus.


Here, the eunuch is reading Isiah 53: 7,8 which reads

7 He was hard pressed, and he was letting himself be afflicted; yet he would not open his mouth. He was being brought just like a sheep to the slaughtering; and like a ewe that before her shearers has become mute, he also would not open his mouth.
8 Because of restraint and of judgment he was taken away; and who will concern himself even with [the details of] his generation? For he was severed from the land of the living ones. Because of the transgression of my people he had the stroke.

There are undeniable parralels with the one God calls 'My slave' and Jesus.

Lets take a look again Isiah 52:13 again.

Look! My servant will act with insight. He will be in high station and will certainly be elevated and exalted very much


Jesus did 'act with insight showing understanding of Bible prophecies that applied to him and being guided by them to do the will of God, his father. (read John 17:4 and 19:30)


so, thats just a few points. Im a JW by the way, if in any doubt. Do you belong to a religion?

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Why don't you go to the thread that I linked, read the post I made, look at the nonsense you posted, pay close attention to the Lamo part, since that's what your case rests upon, and then read the verses in isaiah where it refers to israel, ect... Right now, all you've posted is the same crap everyone else does. Go to the thread I linked, read what I said, look it up yourself, and then respond, in that thread, or here addressing my points instead of just stating your speculation.

Binyamin said:

Why don't you go to the thread that I linked, read the post I made, look at the nonsense you posted, pay close attention to the Lamo part, since that's what your case rests upon, and then read the verses in isaiah where it refers to israel, ect... Right now, all you've posted is the same crap everyone else does. Go to the thread I linked, read what I said, look it up yourself, and then respond, in that thread, or here addressing my points instead of just stating your speculation.

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ah, your maturity shines through in this post. AS soon as my answers don't fit in with your views, then mine are 'crap.' The thing is, the bible answers the question in this one, so how can you argue with that, and then call my post nonsense? Try and reply, and not avoid the reasoning.

I'll look at your other points later.

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT said:

ah, your maturity shines through in this post. AS soon as my answers don't fit in with your views, then mine are 'crap.' The thing is, the bible answers the question in this one, so how can you argue with that, and then call my post nonsense? Try and reply, and not avoid the reasoning.

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The problem, of course, is that your "reasoning", rather than being avoided, has been engaged and found wanting numerous timed in the past.

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT said:

I'll look at your other points later.

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So it is you, not Binyamin, who is avoiding reasoned argument here - hardly an exemplar of maturity.

Why don't you all realize that you have different interpretations of scripture and knowledge of the truth only comes through the spirit of revelation, not reason or empirical evidence.

ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT said:

ah, your maturity shines through in this post. AS soon as my answers don't fit in with your views, then mine are 'crap.' The thing is, the bible answers the question in this one, so how can you argue with that, and then call my post nonsense? Try and reply, and not avoid the reasoning.

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Because the bible you read is mistranslated, you said, "Because of the transgressions of the people, a plague befell HIM" Problem is that's not what the text says.

So your mistranslated bible is very easy to argue with.
As a matter of fact, I think your post is something else besides nonsense, but I'll holy my judgefment for now.

I'll look at your other points later.[/QUOTE]

Deut. 10:19 said:

The problem, of course, is that your "reasoning", rather than being avoided, has been engaged and found wanting numerous timed in the past.
So it is you, not Binyamin, who is avoiding reasoned argument here - hardly an exemplar of maturity.

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This doesnt make sense, as i've used scriptures to back myself up, on the points he has said. (obviously apart from the ones i've said i'll look at later) Tell me how i'm avoiding the reasoning?

Binyamin said:

Because the bible you read is mistranslated, you said, "Because of the transgressions of the people, a plague befell HIM" Problem is that's not what the text says.

So your mistranslated bible is very easy to argue with.
As a matter of fact, I think your post is something else besides nonsense, but I'll holy my judgefment for now.

I'll look at your other points later.

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[/QUOTE]
Sorry, i may be wrong but where have i quoted this scripture :"Because of the transgressions of the people, a plague befell HIM"? I'm trying to look where i have used it..but can't see it.

I still fail to understand how my posts are nonsense. I have used scriptures and quoted the verse numbers, so you can see for yourself..The bible tells us who is referred to in that particular scripture, so i would'nt exactly call it my reasoning.

I'll do some research on that particular scriputure you are referring to....