Why are idols bad?

To understand the descent of God in Human race, we must understand the backdrop - the reason for God's descent.

Mother Earth personified (in the form of Cow) had approached the creator of Universe - Brahma. She was being tormented by demonic persons due to their irreligious principles. Brahma took her to Supreme Lord - Vishnu. Vishnu promised that He would descend soon on Earth and free her of this suffering. Thus Krishna descended.

Reason for God descending is two-fold.

The purpose of God's descent is declared by God Himself in Bhagavad Gita:


Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion -- at that time I descend Myself.[B.G.4.7]


To deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I Myself appear, millennium after millennium.[B.G.4.8]

Of the two, the main purpose is to give pleasure to His devotees. To annihilate the miscreants, He does not need to incarnate. He can do it simply by His divine will, through His multi-potencies. But, it is for His unalloyed devotees, whose hearts are full of love for Him and whose eyes are constantly full of tears because of separation from Him, that He comes. To show His mercy and to reciprocate their loving exchanges!

Pegg said:

it kind of sounds like everything is an expansion of him....including us?

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This is a common hindu idea I´ve seen around.

I subscribe to it.

Pegg said:

it kind of sounds like everything is an expansion of him....including us?

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The belief is that only God exists. Dualism is an illusion.

The individual souls, ie/ you and I (Spirit/life-force/consciousness) are the manifestation of a particular energy of God. Our nature is to be conflicted between desire for material enjoyment and drama and the desire for unity/love (spiritual existence). And so we enter the material universe to play out these desires and when we've had enough, we naturally become inclined to spiritual practice and eventually free ourselves from material bondage.

There is a huge difference between a soul and a direct expansion of God. God is the Whole, the Source, the Absolute. His direct expansions are exactly that. Whereas a soul is a very small aspect of the Lord, representing one of infinite energies/powers.

Madhuri said:

The belief is that only God exists. Dualism is an illusion.

The individual souls, ie/ you and I (Spirit/life-force/consciousness) are the manifestation of a particular energy of God. Our nature is to be conflicted between desire for material enjoyment and drama and the desire for unity/love (spiritual existence). And so we enter the material universe to play out these desires and when we've had enough, we naturally become inclined to spiritual practice and eventually free ourselves from material bondage.

There is a huge difference between a soul and a direct expansion of God. God is the Whole, the Source, the Absolute. His direct expansions are exactly that. Whereas a soul is a very small aspect of the Lord, representing one of infinite energies/powers.

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so do hindu's not believe that God creates any individual creations at all?

Vrindavana Das said:

To understand the descent of God in Human race, we must understand the backdrop - the reason for God's descent.

Mother Earth personified (in the form of Cow) had approached the creator of Universe - Brahma. She was being tormented by demonic persons due to their irreligious principles. Brahma took her to Supreme Lord - Vishnu. Vishnu promised that He would descend soon on Earth and free her of this suffering. Thus Krishna descended.

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May i ask, if brahma is the creator of the universe, why is Vishnu the supreme lord and not the Creator?

Vrindavana Das said:

Of the two, the main purpose is to give pleasure to His devotees. To annihilate the miscreants, He does not need to incarnate. He can do it simply by His divine will, through His multi-potencies. But, it is for His unalloyed devotees, whose hearts are full of love for Him and whose eyes are constantly full of tears because of separation from Him, that He comes. To show His mercy and to reciprocate their loving exchanges!

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and one more question regarding this.... if Brahma is the creator of all, then he also creates the 'miscreants', but why does he do that? Why create them in the first place if he doesnt want them to be irriligious? And where will the cycle stop or will it ever stop?
will there come a time when only righteous people exist??

Pegg said:

May i ask, if brahma is the creator of the universe, why is Vishnu the supreme lord and not the Creator?

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Vishnu is the Supreme Lord who created even Brahma. Brahma is born of a lotus flower from the naval of Supreme Lord - Vishnu. Brahma is the architect and engineer of the universe.

and one more question regarding this.... if Brahma is the creator of all, then he also creates the 'miscreants', but why does he do that? Why create them in the first place if he doesnt want them to be irriligious? And where will the cycle stop or will it ever stop?
will there come a time when only righteous people exist??

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Brahma has been given the responsibility of creation by Supreme Lord. This creation (for all beings) is made possible by combination of the 5 senses, mind, intelligence and ego.

How we use them makes us miscreant (irreligious) or a devotee (religious). That is the free-will of an individual living entity. Even Supreme Lord does not interfere in the free-will of a living entity.

This is the reason for the never-ending cycle of four yugas (ages) totaling to approx. 32 million years. Then annihilation. Then again the cycle starts. It never stops.

Thanks to Pegg's questions and the very thoughtful replies, I feel like this should be called "Hinduism 101," I'm learning so much...or recalling things I'd forgotten.

Wowers!

An interesting pic and explanation I found on the net.



Vishnu reclines on the Adi-sesa (serpant), before the earth has been created. As Vishnu meditates, Brahma is born from a lotus emanating from the navel of Vishnu.

Pegg said:

so do hindu's not believe that God creates any individual creations at all?

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What do you mean?

I would like to expand on Vrindavana Das' response regarding 'miscreants'.

People 'sin' only because we are covered by ignorance. Our misbehaviour stems from a lack of knowledge/wisdom and this ignorance causes us to be selfish since we can barely see beyond ourselves. Selfishness is the root of all destructive of 'evil' actions, imo. Through experience, learning and contact with others we gradually open our awareness and become increasingly selfless (qualities like empathy develop, for example).

No individual is better or worse than another. Ultimately we are all souls and equal. What makes one act differently to another is the result of the individual's unique personal journey through life and what they are lucky enough to learn on the way. Eventually, we all reach perfection.

The material universe does not exist as some place for complete harmony and peace. If that were the reason for creating it, we would have been allowed to be perfect from the start. This universe exists because we innately desire drama. Have you noticed that most people create their own silly dramas rather than settling for boredom? We go crazy without our gossip and crushes and intrigue. That's a basic reason for why the material universe exists. To provide a playing field for these desires.

Pegg, there are infinite Brahmas. One for each material universe. He is self-born from a lotus stemming from the naval of Garbhodakasayi Vishnu (an expansion of Maha-Vishnu whose role it is to create and populate the material universes). Brahma then created the planets within a single newly created universe and from him are 'born' all creatures of the universe.

Pegg said:

those few verses you posted i found to be very inspiring and beautifully written, its the sort of poetry that speaks to the heart (or spirit) thats what i meant when i said it speaks to the senses.

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The term speaking to the senses sounds a little odd to me. Maybe it's the Dharmic side of me, or maybe I'm just being odd, but the senses has an almost negative connotation to me.

can i ask you if there are other more practical verses that give teachings on human relations, behavior, right from wrong, Gods views on morality or his purpose for mankind or his plans for the earth?

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There is. Lots. Even in just the Bhagavad Gītā alone, you will find such things.

This page may interest you, it's an introduction to the Bhagavad Gītā.

In short, Hinduism teaches:

Human Relations
If you're speaking about sex, here (or is it relationship to family and so on you mean?) then Hinduism has no problem with sex. Four aims of human life are: dharma (righteousness, duty), artha (wealth), kāma (pleasure), and mokṣa (liberation and renunciation).

Family is considered quite important in Hinduism for the laypeople, and many Hindus have big families.

Right from Wrong & Morality
Ahiṃsā; non-injury, is a fundamental concept. The only time this is not the case is for self-defence (when the privilege of ahiṃsā for the individual is lost) and in times of war. Kṛṣṇa speaks to Arjuna in the Gītā about how it is his duty (his dharma) to fight. About 30% of HIndus or so avoid meat because of the principle of ahiṃsā, and a fair more percentage wise of Vaiṣṇava (Viṣṇu-centred) Hindus.

Purpose in life and God's purpose
There's the secular purpose, and the spiritual purpose. The secular purpose has been mentioned in human relations. The religious purpose in life, is, quite simply, escape from the cycle of birth and death: mokṣa. The way out of the cycle of reincarnation is based on a certain yoga; yoga doesn't mean standing in a leotard on one hand, but is Sanskrit for "yoking", or "joining".

Karma yoga: the way of action
Jñāna yoga: the way of knowledge
Bhakti yoga: the way of worship

In this age of life now, known as the Kali yuga (age of vice), bhakti yoga is considered to be the best way to do so.

In the Gītā, we have the following:

"Whenever and wherever there is a decline in religious practice, O descendant of Bharata, and a predominant rise of irreligion—at that time I descend Myself.

To deliver the pious and to annihilate the miscreants, as well as to reestablish the principles of religion, I Myself appear, millennium after millennium."


I think I've covered everything you asked.

Idols are bad because people are bad, and they use the idols to justify their ideas. This is true also of idol scriptures, crafted from ink and wood to represent things that refuse to represent themselves because of their malignancy, impotency, or non-existence. The idols are also used to comfort the devotees... but if the devotees would comfort themselves there is no need for any idols.

Madhuri said:

What do you mean?

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meaning individuals who stand apart as their own person. Take yourself for example, do you view yourself as an expression of Brahmah, or do you see yourself as a unique individual created by him?

Pegg said:

meaning individuals who stand apart as their own person. Take yourself for example, do you view yourself as an expression of Brahmah, or do you see yourself as a unique individual created by him?

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Something of both. Each soul is an expression of Brahman but each soul is a unique expression. This is opposed to some totally monist views (including Buddhism) that believe all souls are originally one blob and eventually merge into each other.

No soul can be created as soul is Spirit and Spirit is never created or destroyed. Each soul is an eternal being, never being created and never being destroyed. Only things of matter can endure cycles of birth, aging and destruction.

Vrindavana Das said:

Vishnu is the Supreme Lord who created even Brahma. Brahma is born of a lotus flower from the naval of Supreme Lord - Vishnu. Brahma is the architect and engineer of the universe.

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There is such a god expressed by the writer of Proverbs, its interesting to see the similarities between the hebrew writings and hindu
eg.

22 “The LORD himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25 Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26 when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men. 32 “And now, O sons, listen to me; yes, happy are the ones that keep my very ways.

Vrindavana Das said:

Brahma has been given the responsibility of creation by Supreme Lord.

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i never realised just how similar the hindu belief is with christianity. It almost sounds like the same story with different characters

EG,
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning


obviously there are differences in the characters... it certainly helps me to understand the hindu ideas a little clear.

Madhuri has very eloquently explained the essence.

I more or less agree completely with what she has said.

Slight variation being - we all are selfish. There is nothing like selflessness.

In all our actions, relationships, desires…we are inherently selfish.

Even in our acts of ulterior selflessness, interior selfish motive is to derive satisfaction and become happy. The selfish motive is one…to eliminate pain and to become happy.

Under the spell of Maya, we think we are this body. We think we are the enjoyers and masters. Therefore, our efforts of happiness are expressed through material sense gratification propensities. Trying to be happy, independent of God and ignoring His rules, we sin...falling deeper into the trap of Maya. Becoming miscreants (?)

We must understand that ‘I am the soul’. We are the enjoyed and should serve the Supreme Lord. When we start following the rules of God, our spiritual lives begin. Now we are on way to eternal happiness, which is our true selfish interest. Becoming saints (?)

On the bodily platform, we are all trying to be happy. Every individual in the universe is like a circle, having an independent and individual centre (of interest); different from others. Therefore we cross each other somewhere.

Thus, conflicts of interest, clashes, unrest, and war and so on…
When we put God in the centre of our lives, there will be one common centre of all individual circles. Then, there will be no more crossing of circles. No more clashes of interest. There will be peace, harmony, spiritual and material prosperity….happiness!

This universe is a drama…directed by the Supreme Lord. It is being played for His pleasure. There will be sinners, there will be saints! When we have played our part, we will be called back home…back to Godhead!

According to Śrīla Bhaktisiddhānta Sarasvatī Ṭhākura, "One who has experienced his own true identity understands that all things exist as paraphernalia for giving ecstatic pleasure to the Supreme Lord. Thus one becomes free from the separatist vision in which one sees the world as existing for one's own enjoyment."

Pegg said:

There is such a god expressed by the writer of Proverbs, its interesting to see the similarities between the hebrew writings and hindu
eg.

22 “The LORD himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth. 24 When there were no watery deeps I was brought forth as with labor pains, when there were no springs heavily charged with water. 25 Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains, 26 when as yet he had not made the earth and the open spaces and the first part of the dust masses of the productive land. 27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; when he decreed a circle upon the face of the watery deep, 28 when he made firm the cloud masses above, when he caused the fountains of the watery deep to be strong, 29 when he set for the sea his decree that the waters themselves should not pass beyond his order, when he decreed the foundations of the earth, 30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men. 32 “And now, O sons, listen to me; yes, happy are the ones that keep my very ways.



i never realised just how similar the hindu belief is with christianity. It almost sounds like the same story with different characters

EG,
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, 18 and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning


obviously there are differences in the characters... it certainly helps me to understand the hindu ideas a little clear.

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Yes. Striking similarity!

Guess the 'top management' under that 'Head' is common at all levels for all created beings of all nations...of all religions.

Vrindavana Das said:

Yes. Striking similarity!

Guess the 'top management' under that 'Head' is common at all levels for all created beings of all nations...of all religions.

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looks like it,

so tell me, how is the supreme Lord worshiped in hinduism? Or is he?

Pegg said:

looks like it,

so tell me, how is the supreme Lord worshiped in hinduism? Or is he?

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There are so many ways Pegg. Each Hindu tradition has its preferred methods. I will list some:

1) Deity worship. Offering prayer, food, physical service such as 'waking' and 'putting to sleep' (this involved opening and closing curtains and such), singing, paying obeisance, fanning etc.

This sort of service builds a sense of servitude and devotion. The devotee develops a strong love, the type of love where you want to do whatever you can for someone in order to please them (for example, like a person wanting to make their partner happy or their child or their teacher)

2) Serving others. God is situated in the core of every living entity. By serving others we are serving the Lord. So this means being kind, doing favours where possible ,helping where we can etc. and avoiding causing offense

3) Meditation. Meditation is a very advanced form of worship. It is the deepest kind of communion. It is often said that prayer is us talking to God and meditation is God talking to us.