Christians: is there a biblical defense for belief in universalism?

If it exists I certainly don't know what it is. Whaddaya guys think?

Junglej25 said:

If it exists I certainly don't know what it is. Whaddaya guys think?

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It may be helpful to define what you mean by universalism. According to Wikipedia,
Universalism can refer to the beliefs that all humans either may or will be saved through Jesus Christ and eventually come to harmony in God's kingdom.
There is no basis for such a belief in the Bible. Jesus words in his public talk on the mountain sums up the Bible's teaching: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it." (Matthew 7:13,14)

Rather than universal salvation, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 speaks of "the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength."

Not a clearcut biblical passage as such as far as I'm aware. I presume you're speaking of the Universalist Church's belief that God is too good and loving a Father to His children to damn to hell those not among the Calvinist elect?

Their presumption according to my understanding of it was that God would scarcely have sent his own Son to be the ultimate sacrifice if God wasn't aware that every human wouldn't have the opportunity or the understanding to become a Calvinist Christian much less be among the very limited number of people believed to constitute the elect or those assured of heaven.

Universalism arose primarily as a rejection of the belief that God was so petty as to select only a very few Christians from the Calvinist ranks and wouldn't even reveal to them until their arrival at the judgment after death that they would be admitted to heaven.

rusra02 said:

It may be helpful to define what you mean by universalism. According to Wikipedia,
Universalism can refer to the beliefs that all humans either may or will be saved through Jesus Christ and eventually come to harmony in God's kingdom.
There is no basis for such a belief in the Bible. Jesus words in his public talk on the mountain sums up the Bible's teaching: "Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it." (Matthew 7:13,14)

Rather than universal salvation, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9 speaks of "the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength."

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I look at universalism as the belief that there are multiple ways to be in the good graces of God apart from believing in his son Jesus

"All peoples on earth will be blessed through you." Gen. 12:3
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy..." Ex. 33:19
"I know that you can do all things; no plan of your can be thwarted." Job 42:2
"All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord..." Psalm 22:27
"Where can I go from your spirit? Where can I flee from your presence?..." Psalm 139:7-8
"The Lord is gracious and compassionate, slow to anger and rich in love. The Lord is good to all; he has compassion on all he has made..." Psalm 145:8-10
"On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare a feast of rich food for all peoples...the sovereign Lord will wipe away tears from all faces..." Is. 25:6-8
"Turn to me and be saved, all you ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, my mouth has uttered in integrity a word that will not be revoked. Before me every knee will bow; by me every tongue will swear..." Is. 45:22-24
"I will make you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring my salvation to the end of the earth." Is. 49:6b
"I will pour out my spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions." Joel 2:28
"Whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." Matt. 12:50
"Your Father in heaven is not willing that any of these little ones should be lost." Matt. 18:14
"All mankind will see God's salvation." Luke 3:6
"Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it?" Luke 15:4
"Suppose a woman has ten silver coins and loses one. Does she not light a lamp, sweep the house and search carefully until she finds it?" Lk. 15:8
"The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world." Jn. 1:9
"God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him." Jn. 3:17
"When I am lifted up, I will draw all men to myself." Jn. 12:32
"I did not come to judge the world, but to save it." Jn. 12:47
"You did not choose me, but I chose you." Jn. 15:6

Need more?

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6)

“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all …” (1 Timothy 2:5)

“Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36)

“… whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:15-16)

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)

“… And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; He who does not have the Son of God does not have life.” (1 John 5:11)

Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations …” (Luke 24:46)

Junglej25 said:

I look at universalism as the belief that there are multiple ways to be in the good graces of God apart from believing in his son Jesus

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I think this reflects the current understanding of universalism by the Unitarian Universalist faith. [Edit to add: Which is not to say that it couldn't also be a belief held by more traditional Christians.] It's been too long since I read a lengthy history of the Universalist Church, so I don't recall if this belief reflects the historical view of Universalists for most of the church's existence in the U.S. The earliest Universalists were far more Christian in the sense of venerating Jesus than present-day UU's, that's for sure.

Anyway, it did reflect UU's understanding for the nearly 30 years I was a UU and is consistent with my understanding of what universalism means to UU's. Important to note most likely for those unfamiliar with UUism that it's not generally regarded as a Christian faith today, but Universalism certainly was Christian originally. I offer this information for more understanding of the historical sense of the term "universalism."

Junglej25 said:

I look at universalism as the belief that there are multiple ways to be in the good graces of God apart from believing in his son Jesus

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The Scriptures cited in the previous post show the doctrine of universalism is not scriptural. Jesus said: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6,7) The rest of the Bible supports Jesus statement.

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Junglej25 said:

I look at universalism as the belief that there are multiple ways to be in the good graces of God apart from believing in his son Jesus

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Jungle, your definition comes very close to being correct. I would like to mention that the UU church is a marriage of two sects. Universalists and Unitarians.

This is not the only groups however. Universal life is different from the UU church as well, but has many similar beliefs.

I believe that the fact that at least 144,000 Jews 12,000 of each tribe will be among us in heaven. That fact right there should back the basic tennants of Universalism.

Muslims believe in Jesus as well. You must remember that this trinity thing is the major dispute here. I don't believe God will be so petty and send folks to hell because they prayed to the wrong aspect of God. Thats just silly. Are you telling me that John the Baptist or Moses will not be in heaven? They never prayed to Jesus did they? No one goes to the father without the Son? Really? No one?

I have to ask you one question, do you believe Billions of Muslims will be burning in hell because they did not pray to Jesus? Jesus is God and God is Jesus right?

Can you really see God telling someone, don't pray to me, pray to a different aspect of me instead or burn in hell.

What happened when God said, have no other Gods before me Jungle? Is Jesus not a God? Are you not putting him before God the father?

Reverend Rick said:

I would like to mention that the UU church is a marriage of two sects. Universalists and Unitarians.

This is not the only groups however. Universal life is different from the UU church as well, but has many similar beliefs.

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Unity is similar as well, and the United Church of Christ while being more liberal Christian is pretty liberal, too. You don't have to believe Jesus was more than simply a person who was a great teacher to be a UCC. UU Christians view Jesus similarly.

You're correct that Unitarian Universalism is a merger. The Unitarians merged with the Universalists in 1961 largely because membership was declining in each and the thinking was that by banding together, two very similar faiths might survive longer than if they remained separate.

Junglej25 said:

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6)

“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all …” (1 Timothy 2:5)

“Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36)

“… whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:15-16)

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)

“… And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; He who does not have the Son of God does not have life.” (1 John 5:11)

Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations …” (Luke 24:46)

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You asked:

Christians: is there a biblical defense for belief in universalism?

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I answered the question adequately in my post. Regardless of what these passages say.

Junglej25 said:

Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” (John 14:6)

“For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all …” (1 Timothy 2:5)

“Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12)

He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.” (John 3:36)

“… whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.” (John 3:15-16)

Therefore I said to you that you will die in your sins; for if you do not believe that I am He, you will die in your sins.” (John 8:24)

“… And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has life; He who does not have the Son of God does not have life.” (1 John 5:11)

Then He said to them, “Thus it is written, and thus it was necessary for the Christ to suffer and to rise from the dead the third day, and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in His name to all nations …” (Luke 24:46)

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There are several problems here. First, we need to define universalism. Does it mean "all will be saved?" For that is how I use the term. Or, does it mean, "there are many paths to salvation?" For that is how I think you're using the term.

Of course, a collection of specific, sacred texts are not going to be explicitly universal in the sense of the second definition, because those texts seek to outline one particular path -- in this case, Jesus. But the universality of who Jesus is as God Incarnate, lends itself to a broadly universal outlook. However we define "Deity," whether it be "God," "Vishnu," or "Allah," or "Odin," we are talking broadly about Deity and the power of Deity to save. Since Judaism and Xy are both monotheistic, the point of view could go one of two ways: First, that "God" is "the God," as opposed to all the other "false gods," such as Allah, or Odin, for example. Second, that "God" is but one cultural expression of such Deity that is described as "One," and that Allah and Odin are two particular other cultural expressions of that same Deity. So, is it "this, particular Deity," or "Deity-in-general-terms?"

Second, you will note that all of your examples come from the NT, referring to Jesus as the effector of salvation. Again, that's the POV of one cultural expression, so of course it's going to stay within its own metaphoric language, that is, "Jesus-as-effector." In that sense, no, the texts are not particularly universal.

However, if Xy is viewed, not as a particular religious system, but rather as a spiritual path, able to be embraced by many particular religious systems, then the message could very well be viewed as universal, for the message of Jesus was love and acceptance. What could be more universal than love and acceptance? Don't all religions strive for such?

The examples you give contrast with the examples I give, such that it can be seen that the texts are multivalent. No one set of texts outbids another. The question then becomes, "what is the most beneficial way to view the texts?" Or, "What is the most beneficial definition of 'universalism?'"

sojourner said:

Since Judaism and Xy are both monotheist<snip>

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Many Muslims view Christianity as polytheism. The trinity seems to be the point of contention. If I am not mistaken, it was around 300 years after Christ died before the trinity was really established as doctrine.

Todays Christian is baptised in the name of the father, son and holy ghost. Some sects of Christianity are baptising in Jesus name only now.

I have attended churches who required as membership you be baptised in their church even if you where baptised before. This elitism or attitude of everyone else will burn in hell but a privileged few is non-inclusive to say the least. It is almost like they take joy in the fact that they are the only ones who hold the truth and the way.

One would be good to remember that Jesus and even Paul for that matter practiced Jewish tradition.

Christianity was founded on including the Gentile not making the religion exclusive to gentiles only.

The fact of the matter is, no one knows for certain what decisions will be made on the judgement throne. Judgement is his not ours, it is his. To be judgemental goes against everything Jesus ever taught. Some would be good to remember when Jesus was among a rabinical court, many thought Mary Magdeline should not have washed Jesus feet or be any where near them.

I can sleep at night knowing the God of Abraham and Issac will be just and fair and hears our prayers no matter if we use Jesus name or not when we pray.

Anyone who thinks they hold the absolute truth about anything is pretty arrogant when they propose to say how judgement day will go down.

I personally believe many folks in prison will be in heaven while many preachers may end up in the lake of fire. That is just a guess on my part however. We will see a just Lord making rightous decisions on judgement day. What a wonderful day that will be.

sojourner said:

First, we need to define universalism. Does it mean "all will be saved?" For that is how I use the term. Or, does it mean, "there are many paths to salvation?" For that is how I think you're using the term.

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That all humankind will be saved simply because God is too good and loving to damn anyone to hell is the central belief of the Universalist Church's universalism. So, I suppose it would also be correct to say that "many paths lead to God," certainly as present-day Universalism is practiced although I'm uncertain that the earliest Universalist Church would have upheld that, too. It's primary reason for declaring that all would be saved was a rejection of the Calvinist belief that there was an elect group who would go to heaven. Even if someone was a fervent Christian of another denomination, read the Bible, went to church regularly and did good works, that person couldn't go to heaven unless God somehow saw fit to select him or her. And even that person couldn't be certain of heaven until after death at the judgment.

HerDotness said:

That all humankind will be saved simply because God is too good and loving to damn anyone to hell is the central belief of the Universalist Church's universalism. So, I suppose it would also be correct to say that "many paths lead to God," certainly as present-day Universalism is practiced although I'm uncertain that the earliest Universalist Church would have upheld that, too. It's primary reason for declaring that all would be saved was a rejection of the Calvinist belief that there was an elect group who would go to heaven. Even if someone was a fervent Christian of another denomination, read the Bible, went to church regularly and did good works, that person couldn't go to heaven unless God somehow saw fit to select him or her. And even that person couldn't be certain of heaven until after death at the judgment.

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Yep. That's how I see it. And, as I've shown (in answer to the OP), there's a whole lot of Biblical support for this kind of thinking.

Luke: 8&#8220;Whatever city you enter and they receive you, eat what is set before you; 9and heal those in it who are sick, and say to them, &#8216;The kingdom of God has come near to you.&#8217; 10&#8220;But whatever city you enter and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say, 11&#8216;Even the dust of your city which clings to our feet we wipe off in protest against you; yet be sure of this, that the kingdom of God has come near.&#8217; 12&#8220;I say to you, it will be more tolerable in that day for Sodom than for that city.

I think the NT is pretty clear that those who reject the message of Jesus face damnation. I think the Bible is fairly quiet when it comes to how people will be judged who never heard the Gospel. I think it's possible that 1 Peter implies that one can accept Jesus after death:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits &#8212;20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.


It's important to not dilute the Gospel because one's particular understanding it doesn't doesn't mesh with their sense of justice and fairness. I don't think there's biblical evidence to support a belief that everyone who doesn't hear the Gospel will burn in Hell. I do think there's more than sufficient evidence to support a belief that out and out rejection of the message of Jesus results in a trip to Hell. Regarding Muslims, I take them at their word when they say they believe Jesus is below Muhammed. I take them at their word when they say they don't think he is worthy of worship. I take them at their word when they say they believe the Gospels have been corrupted. How much trust can one have in Jesus if they reject him as Lord and don't find our account of him trustworthy? I also believe the NT when it says that God wasn't please with the worship of the Jews. Keep in mind the Jews also believed they were worshipping the father while rejecting Jesus as his son. I don't think we can select which parts of the trinity we worship and which ones we don't.

John 14
6 Jesus answered, &#8220;I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.&#8221;
8 Philip said, &#8220;Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.&#8221;
9 Jesus answered: &#8220;Don&#8217;t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.

Hebrew 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

It's important to remember that the God of the OT didn't fully reveal himself until Jesus came. From my pov, if you reject Jesus, you can't plead that you worship the God of the OT (the Father) but not Jesus. On the contrary, now that Jesus has come, you know exactly what the God of the OT looks like, as much as any human can know anyways.

Reverend Rick said:

I can sleep at night knowing the God of Abraham and Issac will be just and fair and hears our prayers no matter if we use Jesus name or not when we pray.

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There's a difference between showing mercy toward sinners and looking the other way toward sin.

! Timothy 1:13 Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown mercy because I acted in ignorance and unbelief.

I don't doubt that God is merciful toward the Hindu or the Shinto practicioner that never heard the Gospel but that doesn't mean they have been forgiven for their sins

So how did it come to be that Judaism, which was a pretty universalist faith (in that it excluded other people from joining it, but accepted that they could find God in their own way) was to be "replaced" by Christianity, which is the exact opposite (encouraging others to join, but not accepting that they can find God in their own way)?

Junglej25 said:

Luke: 8“Whatever city you enter and they receive you, eat what is set before you; 9and heal those in it who are sick, and say to them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’ 10“But whatever city you enter and they do not receive you, go out into its streets and say, 11‘Even the dust of your city which clings to our feet we wipe off in protest against you; yet be sure of this, that the kingdom of God has come near.’ 12“I say to you, it will be more tolerable in that day for Sodom than for that city.

I think the NT is pretty clear that those who reject the message of Jesus face damnation. I think the Bible is fairly quiet when it comes to how people will be judged who never heard the Gospel. I think it's possible that 1 Peter implies that one can accept Jesus after death:

18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[d] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits —20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built.


It's important to not dilute the Gospel because one's particular understanding it doesn't doesn't mesh with their sense of justice and fairness. I don't think there's biblical evidence to support a belief that everyone who doesn't hear the Gospel will burn in Hell. I do think there's more than sufficient evidence to support a belief that out and out rejection of the message of Jesus results in a trip to Hell. Regarding Muslims, I take them at their word when they say they believe Jesus is below Muhammed. I take them at their word when they say they don't think he is worthy of worship. I take them at their word when they say they believe the Gospels have been corrupted. How much trust can one have in Jesus if they reject him as Lord and don't find our account of him trustworthy? I also believe the NT when it says that God wasn't please with the worship of the Jews. Keep in mind the Jews also believed they were worshipping the father while rejecting Jesus as his son. I don't think we can select which parts of the trinity we worship and which ones we don't.

John 14
6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”
8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”
9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father.

Hebrew 1:3 The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven.

It's important to remember that the God of the OT didn't fully reveal himself until Jesus came. From my pov, if you reject Jesus, you can't plead that you worship the God of the OT (the Father) but not Jesus. On the contrary, now that Jesus has come, you know exactly what the God of the OT looks like, as much as any human can know anyways.

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In other words, this whole thread isn't about the biblical support of universalism. You didn't really want to know that. All you wanted was to construct a platform for bashing Muslims.

sojourner said:

In other words, this whole thread isn't about the biblical support of universalism. You didn't really want to know that. All you wanted was to construct a platform for bashing Muslims.

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I'm at a loss for words if that's what you took out of the quoted post. Rick brought up Muslims earlier in the thread. I was responding to that