Why are idols bad?

F0uad · Apr 29, 2012

Madhuri said:
The only difference is that the Hindu believes that God becomes present in Spirit within an physical object for the sake of his devotee. It is due to love and mercy that he does this for our sake. And hence the devotee who has this benefit experiences great love and relationship with the Lord in all areas of their life.

Again, you can only know this by experiencing it.

And this is were Islam disagrees i think the ''spiritual part of god'' can be found in the previous prophets, messengers and scriptures. Not meaning they are god off-course.

I would say that Hinduism looks more like Christianity then except for Catholics..

Gharib · Apr 29, 2012

Marble said:
When God is everywhere, he is also inside of the idol.
When God is everything, he is the idol too.
Idols are focus points for concentration when doing prayer or meditation.

Yes Hindus do believe that God is within the Idol and that's what they are actually worshiping. 3 questions:
1. Is that the whole God who is inside the Idol or part of It?
2. Doesn't that put limits on a God who doesn't have limits?
3. Since he is in everything and not only in the idol, it would make more sense to just pray facing anything and everything rather than only towards idols, would it not?

As for a focal point, I know how it works to pray to God without a focal point per se in front of you. As I mentioned that we pray in the direction of the Kaba, which only serves as a sense of direction and nothing else. So we face a certain direction, but nothing specific as in of earthly (materialistic) origin.

Gharib · Apr 29, 2012

Madhuri said:
The only difference is that the Hindu believes that God becomes present in Spirit within an physical object for the sake of his devotee. It is due to love and mercy that he does this for our sake. And hence the devotee who has this benefit experiences great love and relationship with the Lord in all areas of their life.

Again, you can only know this by experiencing it.

Does Hindu scripture teach that even that which is created by man, is divine like humans and other things which are, lets say, 'natural' (humans, trees, the earth).

The Arabs worshiped idols while they knew that a one greater God existed. They took the idols as being the 'Commanders in Chief' (there was the idol of war, that of rain, etc) of certain things, so they would rather pray to the idols and they in turn brought the case to God.

So since God is everywhere, it doesn't make sense that he has to be confined within a specific idol.

Does the size of the idol matter by any chance, does it play any role? Some idols are smaller and some larger, does that hold any significance?

HerDotness · Apr 29, 2012

F0uad said:
I am sorry to say this but do not certain Christian community's do the same for example they have idol's and images of Jesus(p) in there churches and then pray in the name of Jesus(p)... towards Jesus(p).

Maybe i am confused but i am certain the Roman Catholics do use Idols as worship..

No, you are misinformed.

It is, however, a common mistaken belief even among other American Christians that Roman Catholics pray TO the statue as if it is worthy of worship--which would make it an idol.

Catholics use statues and pictures of the saints and of Mary and Jesus just as people keep photos or painted portraits of loved ones to remind them of the person. A person might look lovingly for some time at a loved one's photo, thinking how much that person is loved--similar to how a Catholic might do praying before a statue. However, the person doing this does not for a moment think that the photo actually is the loved one.

A Catholic does not think--and definitely should not!--that the statue is Jesus or the saint or that either somehow is within the statue.

Non-Catholics often claim, also, that Catholics pray to saints instead of to God. Saints are prayed to as is Mary, the mother of Jesus, much as children sometimes ask an adult relative to speak to the child's mother or father in a better way than the child can. Because saints are believed to be in heaven close to God, Catholics believe that saints can get their prayer requests to God more clearly or may have more influence with God.

Also, saints are often said to be the patron of certain causes such as helping to find a lost object (St. Anthony) or the patron of lost causes, St. Jude, to whom the dying or their relatives may pray for comfort or a miraculous cure. I suspect that this belief is a remnant of some pagan beliefs that deities act in certain ways, doing particular things for people.

F0uad · Apr 29, 2012

I think you could better ask if the idol ''image'' cannot do anything how can it be god or a part of it.

F0uad · Apr 29, 2012

HerDotness said:
No, you are misinformed.

It is, however, a common mistaken belief even among other American Christians that Roman Catholics pray TO the statue as if it is worthy of worship--which would make it an idol.

Catholics use statues and pictures of the saints and of Mary and Jesus just as people keep photos or painted portraits of loved ones to remind them of the person. A person might look lovingly for some time at a loved one's photo, thinking how much that person is loved--similar to how a Catholic might do praying before a statue. However, the person doing this does not for a moment think that the photo actually is the loved one.

A Catholic does not think--and definitely should not!--that the statue is Jesus or the saint or that either somehow is within the statue.

Non-Catholics often claim, also, that Catholics pray to saints instead of to God. Saints are prayed to as is Mary, the mother of Jesus, much as children sometimes ask an adult relative to speak to the child's mother or father in a better way than the child can. Because saints are believed to be in heaven close to God, Catholics believe that saints can get their prayer requests to God more clearly or may have more influence with God.

Also, saints are often said to be the patron of certain causes such as helping to find a lost object (St. Anthony) or the patron of lost causes, St. Jude, to whom the dying or their relatives may pray for comfort or a miraculous cure. I suspect that this belief is a remnant of some pagan beliefs that deities act in certain ways, doing particular things for people.

So saying that Jesus(p) is god... and then pray in the name of Jesus(p) facing a idol of Jesus(p) doesn't look like Idol-worship?.. I am not saying it is because i am certainly not doing it so i cannot judge anything.

Idol-worship can be seen as two things: That you belief that Statue is god or that the person where the statue is referred to is a god (or part of god)

HerDotness · Apr 29, 2012

F0uad said:
So saying that Jesus(p) is god... and then pray in the name of Jesus(p) facing a idol of Jesus(p) doesn't look like Idol-worship?.. I am not saying it is because i am certainly not doing it so i cannot judge anything.

Idol-worship can be seen as two things: That you belief that Statue is god or that the person where the statue is referred to is a god (or part of god)

F0uad, please try to see this practice just as I said people regard photos of loved ones. They don't think the photo is the person at all (unless they have a mental illness.) A photo only serves as a reminder of that person.

I understand that it may seem like idol worship to you or look like that to you, but Catholics believe a statue is an object just as a photograph is. You wouldn't put a photograph of your child in bed or try to feed it which would be treating the photo as if it's your child. Neither do Catholics treat a statue of a saint, Mary or Jesus in that way and don't think that talking to the statue means that the statue can help them. It is like a photograph--a way of feeling closer to a loved one who is not there with you or cannot be because the person has died.

Pegg · Apr 29, 2012

Father Heathen said:
Ironic considering this is precisely what religion itself does. After all, does your bible not paint a picture from ancient goat herders' perspective?

those who wrote the books of the bible had no illusions that idols were actual images of God. The wrote that idols are worthless, lifeless and unable to help anyone. They were not under the illusion that an idol was anything more then an image carved by man....they knew it was not the God they worshiped.

one of the 10 commandments was not to make God into a carved image and not to bow down before a carved image in an act of worship.

F0uad · Apr 29, 2012

HerDotness said:
F0uad, please try to see this practice just as I said people regard photos of loved ones. They don't think the photo is the person at all (unless they have a mental illness.) A photo only serves as a reminder of that person.

I understand that it may seem like idol worship to you or look like that to you, but Catholics believe a statue is an object just as a photograph is. You wouldn't put a photograph of your child in bed or try to feed it which would be treating the photo as if it's your child. Neither do Catholics treat a statue of a saint, Mary or Jesus in that way and don't think that talking to the statue means that the statue can help them. It is like a photograph--a way of feeling closer to a loved one who is not there with you or cannot be because the person has died.

Ok i will

Marble · Apr 29, 2012

eselam said:
Yes Hindus do believe that God is within the Idol and that's what they are actually worshiping. 3 questions:
1. Is that the whole God who is inside the Idol or part of It?
2. Doesn't that put limits on a God who doesn't have limits?
3. Since he is in everything and not only in the idol, it would make more sense to just pray facing anything and everything rather than only towards idols, would it not?

1. God is not a substance, therefore the whole God or part of God are meaningless expressions.
2. When God is everywhere, to say God is not in the idol would mean to put limits on him - to say God is in the idol too is recognizing his omnipresence.
3. Enlightened persons see God everywhere.
But those of us who are still walking the path must function in day to day life somehow.
When you step out of your house and start prostrating before each person who comes along, you will never reach your office.
Therefore some religions have murtis, statues, pictures.

It may be interesting to know that Hindus sometimes make big murtis of a god or goddess, worship them, and then throw them into a river.
So the murtis function as focus points for concentration for some time and when they did their job, are destroyed.
Clearly Hindus do not believe "Oh, this idol is Krishna! When I brake an arm of the Krishna murti, I brake Krishna's arm.".

HerDotness · Apr 29, 2012

F0uad said:
Ok i will

Thank you for trying. I know I find some beliefs other faiths have seem weird or horrible because I don't understand how people whose faith it is are taught to think of that belief.

A person really can't understand oftentimes beliefs like this because the person doesn't have any way to know how the belief is seen by people of that faith. Even if you study and learn about the other faith, you still can't quite understand how anyone could believe something so very different from what you believe. There is much about many faiths that is only understood correctly by those whose faith it is, and trying to explain is very difficult.

I found myself reading the posting which said that Hindus believe that a statue does contain the spirit of the deity and thinking, "But that makes it an idol" because I thought as a Catholic would--a statue isn't the deity, it's only a thing like a photograph and is only to remind us of the saint or whoever. What a person is taught is right in your own faith affects very much how you will regard beliefs of other faiths that are very different from your own.

F0uad · Apr 29, 2012

HerDotness said:
Thank you for trying. I know I find some beliefs other faiths have seem weird or horrible because I don't understand how people whose faith it is are taught to think of that belief.

A person really can't understand oftentimes beliefs like this because the person doesn't have any way to know how the belief is seen by people of that faith. Even if you study and learn about the other faith, you still can't quite understand how anyone could believe something so very different from what you believe. There is much about many faiths that is only understood correctly by those whose faith it is, and trying to explain is very difficult.

I found myself reading the posting which said that Hindus believe that a statue does contain the spirit of the deity and thinking, "But that makes it an idol" because I thought as a Catholic would--a statue isn't the deity, it's only a thing like a photograph and is only to remind us of the saint or whoever. What a person is taught is right in your own faith affects very much how you will regard beliefs of other faiths that are very different from your own.

Yeah i understand and mostly agree but what i was trying to point out is. If you say for example: all Cows are God and then have a Cow-Statue before you when you pray it seems to me that it defiantly looks like Idol-worship, now someone can say ''It isn't'' and i am willing to belief that person but would it not be better to remove the whole ''statue or idol'' in the first place when you pray and pray to a formless god (if you belief he is formless) even if its a ''respected or loved figure''.

Now place the cow part away and put Jesus(p) in that part ''a creation of god'' and i think you will have something looking similar to (Paganism/Idol-ism) hence people belief that he is God or at-least a part of concept of god. Now i am not claiming its that and i fully well understand your argument and points that you brought forth and that's why i also agreed mostly on what you just said and certainly about having ''different perspectives on certain things''

Satyamavejayanti · Apr 29, 2012

In Hinduism, the core of our beliefs i think centre around, freedom.

That includes freedom of speech, freedom of artistic expression, freedom of worships, freedom of leading once life.

Many Hindus (Mostly ones who are well versed in scriptures), do not consider superstitious practices (Rat temple) as genuine form of Vedic Hinduism. But since there is a ethos of freedom within Hinduism, most leave those who believe in such things alone, as to each is own is the motto.
Every person has there own Karma.

As for "Idol Worship" (Murti), its used as a guide and form of concentration, its a stepping stone to higher knowledge, with Murti veneration a sense of devotion and Love is formed for that aspect of the supreme, then by study of scriptures the Murti is no longer required once one reaches that level of higher consciousness.
Ishwar does not punish, it is Love and compassion.

That Love and devotion is required to feel the emotional aspect of our spirituality, the Vedic knowledge come after and helps to rid the ignorance of attachment, ego, hate ect. ect.

Hinduism is a system, It can claim to be the longest surviving system because its main base is freedom and knowledge.

God in Hinduism is Nirguna (Without attributes) and Saguna (With attributes) at the same time, as Ishwar is OMnipresent it is everywhere, even in the Murti that is worshipped.

That is why in Hinduism we say there is only GOD, instead of there is only one GOD.

OM TATH SATH

zenzero · Apr 29, 2012

Friend SSKF,

Where are you getting the idea that Satan means mind?

Kindly describe what MIND is? we shall then go on o discuss the rest.
Let us travel together on this journey!

Love & rgds

Desert Snake · Apr 29, 2012

zenzero said:
Friend SSKF,

Kindly describe what MIND is? we shall then go on o discuss the rest.
Let us travel together on this journey!

Love & rgds

I'm not sure why you don't just answer the question directly. 'Satan' AFAIK means something like "adversary", my question to you is how do you ascribe 'mind' to the term.

idea · Apr 29, 2012

DivineKala said:
Namaste

I do not understand the vehemence with which some religions talk about idols. What, exactly, about idols is bad? As a Hindu I use a murti (what Abrahamics would call an idol) in my worship. This 'idol' is not God but it represents God and the many forms God takes. How is this bad?

No one I know worships the actual idol; we worship the force that the idol embodies. Why these harsh injunctions against anyone who does this? Why is it considered bad?

Good question.

For me, the important thing about God is not what He looks like, but what He is like. seems like an idol might be more along the lines of looks than inner being, although I can understand how artwork can sometimes capture a parable "a picture is worth a thousand words" kind of a thing. in like vein, I think some Christians worship the Bible as an idol, rather than being able to see past the words, to the mighty realities for which the words stand... in any event, it seems to be about reaching past materialistic constructs, into the spiritual.

interesting, in the old testament, originally worshiping in groves of trees was ok:

Genesis 21:33 And Abraham planted a grove in Beer-sheba, and called there on the name of the LORD, the everlasting God.

but it seems the practice became polluted, and was then forbidden. strange that is was so hard for the Israelites to stop doing this, why was it such a huge temptation for them do you think?

Satyamavejayanti · Apr 29, 2012

eselam;2904653]

Don't you think that God is beyond being inside a mere idol?

It is said in the Yajur Veda, that those who think that Ishwar moves here and there are ignorant.

It pervades all.

Wouldn't it be more fitting to say that God is great and 'everywhere' (literally from a Hindu perspective) and just pray in the open without directing your prayer to a specific lifeless idol?

In Islam we have the Kaba towards which we face, however it doesn't represent God in any way. It's a sense of direction through which we are prevented from praying towards other things, like the graves of whom we consider to be good people, like that of our Prophet and thereby commit idolatry.

What is the difference between praying in open space or looking at a Murti/Kaba, if Ishwar is Omnipresent?

Satyamavejayanti · Apr 29, 2012

F0uad;2905622]If you say for example: all Cows are God and then have a Cow-Statue before you when you pray it seems to me that it defiantly looks like Idol-worship, now someone can say ''It isn't'' and i am willing to belief that person but would it not be better to remove the whole ''statue or idol'' in the first place when you pray and pray to a formless god (if you belief he is formless) even if its a ''respected or loved figure''.

I know this reply is not for me, sorry if I offend. I can say the same for the KABA, its Idol worship.

idea · Apr 29, 2012

Satyamavejayanti said:
... praying in open space ...

I do think that some places are more spiritual than others - sure you can pray anywhere, but you will probably have a more spiritual experience if you are in some quiet peaceful environment... many prayers in the Bible happen in mountains...

Matthew 14:23 And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.

mountains are spiritual places for me too (I grew up in the mountains). We also have temples that are cept clean/bright/pure/quiet as holy places of prayer.

Satyamavejayanti · Apr 29, 2012

idea said:
I do think that some places are more spiritual than others - sure you can pray anywhere, but you will probably have a more spiritual experience if you are in some quiet peaceful environment... many prayers in the Bible happen in mountains...

Matthew 14:23 And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.

mountains are spiritual places for me too (I grew up in the mountains). We also have temples that are cept clean/bright/pure/quiet as holy places of prayer.

I don't think any particular place is more spiritual then another, your thinking brands one place of worship as spiritual and another as not.
A spiritual experience is not bound by geography.

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