Was Pilate totally blameless for crucifying Jesus?

outhouse said:

You will have to be more specific so I can find details

but more importantly, instead of dismissing them outright, you could try and refute what you dont believe

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I'm not dismissing them outright. I'm dismissing them simply because you can't show evidence for all of this taxation. And I thought I was quite specific with this: I would just like a source where you got your information about Roman taxation and how it applied to Jerusalem and in particular to the Temple.

The taxes I'm talking about are the ones you listed:
temple tax
poll tax
livestock cost, for lunch/sacrifice
tithe's
money changing tables charded for conversion as well.
road tax
bridge tax
transport of goods taxed

I want information to show that the Temple tax was mandatory, as well as collected when Jews went to the Temple for Passover (or to Jerusalem in general, either one).

I want to see how poll tax actually has anything to do with this event.

I want to see how there was a livestock cost that was a must. As in, why couldn't people bring their own animals from home? Also, as for lunch, why they couldn't buy food else where.

For the tithes, I want to see how it went into the hands of the Romans, and whether they even tithed at that time.

I also want to see how the money from the money changers ended up in Roman coffers at all.

As for the road, bridge, and transportation tax, I want you to show that they exist. The only tax on transportation that I am familiar with, and have ever seen, is one to do with imports and exports. Most would not be effected by that.

Finally, I want to see how this taxation would have been collected in Jerusalem, and why, instead of the general way taxes were collected, as in at one's home area, this taxation was all now collected in Jerusalem.

I also want to see how the money from the money changers ended up in Roman coffers at all.

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i didnt state that this thread did I??


but we all know Pilate had his hand in the till, as it is recorded he had done so in the past

I want information to show that the Temple tax was mandatory, as well as collected when Jews went to the Temple for Passover (or to Jerusalem in general, either one).

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I didnt state it was mandatory, I stated they collected it. in this thread.

I want to see how poll tax actually has anything to do with this event.

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jesus was question about it, a few days before his murder.

livestock cost, for lunch/sacrifice

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bible states they sold animals

tithe's

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prove they didnt


everyone knows they collected tithes


please dont waist my time with the obvious

cablescavenger said:

I would hope Pilate is innocent until proven guilty. No body no crime.

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What crime? He was the governor. The law was on his side.

BTW, in cased you missed it, it's all God's fault:

Road Warrior said:

Agreed as far as giving the order goes. According to the Bible, it is God who bears the total blame for the crucifixion of Jesus. God is the one who told Jesus to make it happen and Jesus did so.

And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.” - Matthew 26:39

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outhouse- If you don't have any sources, that is fine. But then there is no reason for me to take this seriously.

Apparently someone missed this earlier:

RF Etiquette Lesson Time!

When a member makes a statement that he/she claims is factual rather than simply an opinion, and he/she is asked to provide a source to substantiate that statement, it is courteous to provide the source rather than telling the other party, "Look it up yourself."

When the "Look it up yourself" tactic is employed, this is considered evidence that the claimant actually has no source to offer and is, instead, well...bluffing - or at the very least, shooting from the hip.

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road tax
bridge tax
transport of goods taxed

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Roman Roads - Crystalinks

The beauty and grandeur of the roads might tempt us to believe that any Roman citizen could use them for free, but this was not the case. Tolls abounded, especially at bridges. Often they were collected at the city gate. Freight was made heavier still by import and export taxes. These were only the charges for using the roads. Costs of services on the journey went up from there

fallingblood said:

outhouse- If you don't have any sources, that is fine. But then there is no reason for me to take this seriously.

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why ignore biblical text?

Kathryn said:

Apparently someone missed this earlier:

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no need to post links for common knowledge

outhouse said:

why ignore biblical text?

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I'm not ignoring Biblical texts. I'm stating that you should provide some evidence to this supposed high amount of taxes and how Passover was a big money maker. As for your above link, it comes actually from Wikipedia which contradicts itself. If you read the source, you will see that they claim that the only cost were import export taxes. That would not effect the vast majority of people traveling at this time.

outhouse said:

no need to post links for common knowledge

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Wait, so you think that specifics about Roman and Jewish taxation schedules and requirements in biblical times is common knowledge?

Not only is it not common knowledge, it's apparently not even knowledge that you are familiar with.

Customs

Coins"The tax collector could walk up to any traveler, on any road within his district and ask him to drop all of his goods in order to exact tax."The taxes levied by the Roman government were many and varied. There was first of all the poll tax (tributum capitis). This had to be paid by every male over fourteen and every female over twelve (the aged were exempt). There was the land tax (tributum agri), which was payable in kind. Both of these direct taxes were collected by officials in Palestine who were usually Jewish.

Also there were many forms of indirect taxation. The people were taxed on all imports and exports, including the transportation of slaves. These were collected by the telones of the gospels. They examined goods and collected tolls on roads and bridges. There was also a market toll in Jerusalem introduced by Herod.

Many scholars believe that the customs raised at Capernaum, in Galilee, went into the treasury of Herod Antipas. In senatorial provinces, the Roman senate seized the money. Judea, however, was an imperial province, and the revenue collected went into the treasury of the emperor. This is part of the reason that they asked Jesus the question: "Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?" (Matt 22 :17; Mark 12 :14; Luke 20:22).

Luke 19:2 mentions a "chief tax collector" at Jericho. Josephus (Jos. War II. xiv. 4) speaks of a certain John who was a tax collector at Caesarea in A.D. 66 and evidently a prominent Jew.

Alfred Edersheim makes an interesting comment:

"The Talmud distinguishes two classes of publicans-the tax-gatherer in general (Gabbai) and the Mokhes or Mokhsa, who was specially the douanier, or customhouse official. Although both classes fell under the rabbinic ban, the douanier-such as Matthew was-was the object of chief execration. And this because his exactions were more vexatious and gave more scope to rapacity. The Gabbai, or tax-gatherer, collected the regular dues, which consisted of ground, income, and poll tax. . . . If this offered many opportunities for vexatious exactions and rapacious injustice, the Mokhes might inflict much greater hardship upon the poor people. There was a tax and duty upon all imports and exports; on all that was bought and sold; bridge money, road money, harbor dues, town dues, etc. The classical reader knows the ingenuity which could invent a tax and find a name for every kind of exaction, such as on axles, wheels, pack animals, pedestrians, roads, highways; on admission to markets; on carriers, bridges, ships, and quays; on crossing rivers, on dams, on licenses-in short, on such a variety of objects that even the research of modern scholars has not been able to identify all the names. But even this was as nothing compared to the vexation of being constantly stopped on the journey, having to unload all one's pack animals, when every bale and package was opened, and the contents tumbled about, private letters opened, and the Mokhes ruled supreme in his insolence and rapacity" (Edersheim, Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, 1:515 ff.).

Kathryn said:

Wait, so you think that specifics about Roman and Jewish taxation schedules and requirements in biblical times is common knowledge?

Not only is it not common knowledge, it's apparently not even knowledge that you are familiar with.

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IIts common knowledge


because your ignorant about it doesnt mean everyone is.


its called cultural anthropology, please learn it before you try and post

Kathryn said:

Wait, so you think that specifics about Roman and Jewish taxation schedules and requirements in biblical times is common knowledge?

Not only is it not common knowledge, it's apparently not even knowledge that you are familiar with.

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You beat me to it. Considering that there are quite a number of in depth works on Roman taxation, and it appears to be a complicated subject (I personally have not really delved into it, but if the work on the subject is any indication, then I would assume it is), so it can hardly be called common sense.

Even Jewish taxation can be a difficult subject simply because things changed so greatly, especially in Palestine during the few hundred years surrounding the first century.

outhouse said:

IIts common knowledge


because your ignorant about it doesnt mean everyone is.


its called cultural anthropology, please learn it before you try and post

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If you'd actually STUDY it a bit, which would require some reading, perhaps you'd pick up some grammar and punctuation skills.

outhouse said:

IIts common knowledge


because your ignorant about it doesnt mean everyone is.


its called cultural anthropology, please learn it before you try and post

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I have to conclude you have no idea what common knowledge is. Also, cultural anthropology is hardly in the realm of common knowledge.

Here is a Wiki link on the subject. Common knowledge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Common knowledge is knowledge that everyone or nearly everyone has, usually in a reference to that community. Roman taxation and the like is not common knowledge, unless one is talking about a community full of Roman law experts or something similar.

fallingblood said:

I'm not ignoring Biblical texts. I'm stating that you should provide some evidence to this supposed high amount of taxes and how Passover was a big money maker. As for your above link, it comes actually from Wikipedia which contradicts itself. If you read the source, you will see that they claim that the only cost were import export taxes. That would not effect the vast majority of people traveling at this time.

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you just dont get it do you.

the money changing tables were there in the temple why??? art??



roughly 400,000 jews attended, heards of sheep were brought in more then likely Sadducee owned. They had animal baths at the temple for these herds right outside the gate.

animals had to be pure and unblemished, like the people, washed as well. these were not free

I suppose the animal bathing pools were there for the swim team

I posted links try reading them.