Has anyone seen God?

beckysoup61 said:

I haven't seen him, but I believe we are created in God's image, so God looks like us, sort of.

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I think the "image" is a spiritual one, not a physical one. So no man has the capacity to define the nature of God, it is beyond our knowledge and station.
"Know thou that God - exalted and glorified be He - doth in no wise manifest His inmost Essence and Reality. From time immemorial He hath been veiled in the eternity of His Essence and concealed in the infinitude of His own Being. And when He purposed to manifest His beauty in the kingdom of names and to reveal His glory in the realm of attributes, He brought forth His Prophets from the invisible plane to the visible, that His name "the Manifest" might be distinguished from "the Hidden" and His name "the Last" might be discerned from "the First", and that there may be fulfilled the words: "He is the First and the Last; the Seen and the Hidden; and He knoweth all things!"33 Thus hath He revealed these most excellent names and most exalted words in the Manifestations of His Self and the Mirrors of His Being."
(Baha'u'llah, Gems of Divine Mysteries, p. 35)

Regards,
Scott

Scott why is the image not a physcial one and why do you think God is invisible to the human eye?

robtex said:

AE the creed is a big site. What are we looking for on there?

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Many apologies. I meant to say the first five links on the creeds site. Apostles' creed and Nicea should do, and the Athanasian creed as well. Compare to the biblical creeds.

Apostles' Creed = I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

Nichea = We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

Athanasian = The Father was not made, nor created, nor generated by anyone

EDIT:
Rule of faith by Ireneaus = this faith: in one God, the Father Almighty, who made the heaven and the earth and the seas and all the things that are in them

Matt10:34 said:

You mormans....you all are soo close but so far.

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Nice to meet you, too.

When God said "Lets create man in OUR image" He is refering to the trinity. Father, Son, and Holy Ghost. Or for us Soul, Body, and Spirit. We are a tri-being. There is more there than just a quick answer.

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That's interesting. Would you be willing to provide scriptural evidence to support that opinion?

By the way, I notice you've listed your religion as IFB. What exactly is that?

Popeyesays said:

I think the "image" is a spiritual one, not a physical one.

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Scott, would you please (1) define what a "spiritual image" is and (2) use the word "image" in a sentence to mean something other than the representation of physical qualities.

(Wow, I can't believe we're back on this topic again so soon. I've gotta warn you, the last time we discussed it, I pretty much wore everybody out! )

robtex said:

It is perfect Victor. I was just curious if yall pondered this. I mean if I loved someone I would want to be able to see them. Seems so natural. I figured the thought must have crossed your mind.

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Pretty astute, coming from an athiest!

Ya know, there are certain segments of "active" atheism/'deistic unbelief'" that argue that supernaturalism could be "proved" by evidences of naturalistic "finger/footprints".

Simply put, if a 'supernatural" force/entity were indeed active/extant, their/its very presence would have a measurable (and observable) impact upon the realm of the innately physical.

To wit, the allegory of the "mysterious" footprints found in a freshly fallen, overnight-laden (and impersonally witnessed event of a deposited ) blanket of snow. Observable tracks (suggested from inferred truck-tire imprints) to and from a lone mailbox (which was empty yesterday, but filled one more today) are seen. To the impartial individual observer, the "mail" was delivered by the regularly reliable letter-carrier, though no witness could be produced to verify such an obvious deduction. Would it be fair to assume that the allegedly-prospective letter-carrier was "divine", or invisible, or possessed of some supernatural power/influence in delivering our fill of mundane junk mail? Did a god deliver the mail? Remotely possible, but unlikely.

What then of the cosmos? If we could observe "footprints" of inferentially "invisible", or (otherwise) "unobservable" manifestations or physical evidences, would it be fair to assume/conclude a supernatural influence/presence was/is at work within a physical realm? Would it be fair to assume/conclude that such evidential "footprints", regardless of source or (un)natural origin...might at least suggest a physical "disruption" of the "observably" natural cosmos - in that an invisible, unobserved, and unwitnessed "super-being" might have left some telltale evidence behind (tracks, footprints, junk mail) as to it's presence and active role within a physical realm of existence?

The argument remains that even a "supernatural being" (or "force", or "entity") - if so choosing to interact within the observable/measuarable/testable realm of physical existence - then certainly it should be no especial challenge to point towards hard physical evidence (beyond "faith") that..."God intervened here". One need not illustrate/champion the concept of an invisible deity, merely to proffer alternate suggestions of causation/effect. Was it a god, or just the mailman on appointed daily rounds?

If "God" swaggers through a galaxy star-field, does His (Its) "presence" have a measurable (and mutually, independently observable) effect upon the cosmos itself? Do these (any) apparent "effects" limit/disregard other plausible/natural/understood elemental cause/effect phenomena?

As yet, the answer is "no".

Even if "science" would logically/empirically concede that "the supernatural" (being unobservable/immeasurable/unquantifiable) presents itself as a potential/plausible/probable cause/effect "explanation" of observable (yet somehow "inexplicable") phenomena, then surely a supernatural "presence" (entity/force/being) would/should - at least - leave supernatural "footprints" in the cosmic snow. The alleged and unseen cosmic dog that "ate my homework" remains unsupported by any evidence that even remotely bolsters the spurious claim of possible (or likely) invisibly omniscient paper-ingesting existent "being", or effect. Unidentified bright lights in the night-time sky are not proof of existent alien spacecraft visiting our remote and otherwise insignificant corner outpost of one lone galaxy, within an enormous cosmos replete with billions of observable galaxies. Yet for some, the "unexplained" is all that is requisite to "believe" in alien visitations - absent any physical evidence or measurable causal effect(s).

I have previously offered within REF a "supernatural proof" that would present empirical (and quite impressive) "evidence" of an intelligent and omniscient supernatural deity/force/effect within the cosmos, here. To this day, not one rebuttal has been offered that would legitimately dismiss such a proposed "proof"; nor has any respondent lent dogmatic, faith-based rationale as to why such a supernatural manifestation of purposed "finger/footprints" could/should not be readily observable, measurable, and verifiable by anyone and everyone seeking "evidence" of claimed supernatural cause/effect phenomena.

Have I "seen" God?

No.

But I propose that any supernatural god could (and should) leave definitive footprints in the snow, even if that god is invisible, unobservable, unmeasurable, and unquantifiable. No one can "see" a Black Hole...but mathematically, and by means of observable/quantifiable effects, we can reasonably predict and quantify their existence in a physical cosmos.

Any claimed gods have yet to stand up and be counted thusly...

ET...phone home.

---But I propose that any supernatural god could (and should) leave definitive footprints in the snow, even if that god is invisible, unobservable, unmeasurable, and unquantifiable. No one can "see" a Black Hole...but mathematically, and by means of observable/quantifiable effects, we can reasonably predict and quantify their existence in a physical cosmos.---

From the traditional Christian perspective, that is what the Bible is.

Katzpur said:

Scott, would you please (1) define what a "spiritual image" is and (2) use the word "image" in a sentence to mean something other than the representation of physical qualities.

(Wow, I can't believe we're back on this topic again so soon. I've gotta warn you, the last time we discussed it, I pretty much wore everybody out! )

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Okay, we are the image of God's spiritual perfections, His august attributes. God the Creator needs neither physical embodiment nor does it need gender, skin color, hair type, etc. God is the Creator and ever apart from the Knowledge of His Creation. We have no capability to see God in His perfection because He is the Created and all that exists in the multiverse is simply created. God was not created.

Thus we can never find evidence of God, but everything that exists is a token of God, a remembrance of His love for His Creation.

To know God, we can only know His Messengers.

"Man from the beginning was in this perfect form and composition, and possessed capacity and aptitude for acquiring material and spiritual perfections, and was the manifestation of these words, "We will make man in Our image and likeness." He has only become more pleasing, more beautiful, and more graceful. Civilization has brought him out of his wild state, just as the wild fruits which are cultivated by a gardener became finer, sweeter, and acquire more freshness and delicacy.
The gardeners of the world of humanity are the Prophets of God."
(Compilations, Baha'i World Faith, p. 310)

And from George Townshend (formerly of the cergy of the Irish Protestant Church):
"The object of all this struggle and endeavour is to draw out
those high powers which lie folded away and hidden within the
soul of every man as a rose is folded within the bud; to let
the Divine Image in man's heart shine forth in its splendour;
to become (so far as a human being may) godlike; and thus to
co-operate with the evolutionary Force, with the spiritual
impulse imparted to mankind by God."
(George Townshend, The Heart of the Gospel, p. 28)

Regards,
Scott

angellous_evangellous said:

---But I propose that any supernatural god could (and should) leave definitive footprints in the snow, even if that god is invisible, unobservable, unmeasurable, and unquantifiable. No one can "see" a Black Hole...but mathematically, and by means of observable/quantifiable effects, we can reasonably predict and quantify their existence in a physical cosmos.---

From the traditional Christian perspective, that is what the Bible is.

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Everything that exists is a "token" of God's existence, but nothing is the image of God. His creation cannot possess an image of God because God is not part of this universe, but rather the Primal Cause for its existence.

Regards,
Scott

robtex said:

No, you percieve senses of humor and view your granddaughter, mountains and what ever else you are viewing in nature. Without using metaphors and semantics what does God look like? Not your granddaugther, not a tree, a mountain or a a lake but God the creator of your universe?

If you have never physically seem him/her/it why do you think that is?

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Yes I perceive senses of humor and view my granddaughter, etc. but to me those are ALL the face of God. I believe that God is in all things and thus, to see those things is to see God. And yes, this is the same God that I believe created our universe. I personally think that it is extremely easy to see God. All we need to do is to look around us.

Many traditional belief systems try to make God into something mysterious and something we can't possibly see or understand. I disagree with this idea. I believe that God can be seen and understood by seeing and understanding our world and the people in it.

I don't see God as some old man in the sky looking down on us from above. I see God as the creative energy that is the source of all life and therefore I see God in everything. If you are looking for the Christian God then you'll never see God because as I said, God is made out to be this unknowable, unseeable superbeing. After all, this IS God's world so why wouldn't God be in it?

Popeyesays said:

Okay, we are the image of God's spiritual perfections,

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Well, you'd have a hard time convincing me that we even remotely resemble His spiritual perfections. We certainly aren't all-loving, all-knowing, all-powerful, all-good, all-just, all-merciful or any of a number of other of the things He is. Would you mind telling me why you believe that we should not understand the word "image" in the context in which we use it every day and instead give it an entirely different meaning?

God the Creator needs neither physical embodiment nor does it need gender, skin color, hair type, etc. God is the Creator and ever apart from the Knowledge of His Creation.

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Who said anything about what He needs? Jesus ascended into Heaven with a physical form (at least Christians believe He did -- I'm not sure about Baha'is). If God's Son had a physical form when He returned to His Father, why is it such a huge stretch of the imagaination to believe God the Father has one, too? Stephen saw Jesus sitting on the right hand of God. How is that possible if there were not two beings, both of which had a visible form?

By the way, I'm still waiting for a single solitary example of how you might use the word "image" in a sentence to mean something other than representation of physical qualities.

Popeyesays said:

Everything that exists is a "token" of God's existence, but nothing is the image of God. His creation cannot possess an image of God because God is not part of this universe, but rather the Primal Cause for its existence.

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So we are just supposed to disregard what the Bible says about being created in God's image?

maggie2 said:

God is made out to be this unknowable, unseeable superbeing.

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I think that what God really is and what God is made out to be are two very different things.

Has anyone seen God?

Well, the answer pretty much depends on whom one believes.

I've never seen god, but I have felt the energy from god.

Have we seen God? Seeing as the perception of our nerve cell in the back of our eyeball?

The answer is of course NO for everyone.

But if the question is "Have you any perception of how God will appear to you when you are given the opportunity of 'seeing' Him", then obviously anyone who believe the existence of a God would have seen God.

Unfortunately that perception will be completely different from one person to the next person. Hence little children will give very touching answer to how a God look like, and most who do not believe in a Christian\Muslim\Jewish God will likely to describe just feeling God as a form of energy, or more commonly seeing God as existing everywhere mostly the Bahai faith, the Buddhism, or even the Taoism.

For most simple Christians, I think they believe God would look like Jesus depicted on the Cross

robtex said:

From another thread:

From post 137 on the the thread of "Do Demons exist?"
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=288970#post288970

AE says,


Taking the second part of that, "Has anyone seen God? "
If so what does he/she/it look like ?
If not what is your theory as to why not ?

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No, I haven't seen God. Look in the below quote to see what it says in the bible about looking upon God's face. From my understanding is that our physical body's can't handle the glory and magnitude of God. That doesn't mean that we wont see his face in heaven when we have a different body/spirit or whatever we will look like in heaven.

Exodus 33:18 Then Moses said, "Now show me your glory."

19 And the LORD said, "I will cause all my goodness to pass in front of you, and I will proclaim my name, the LORD, in your presence. I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

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Example: I went to Toronto three months ago and went up in the CN Tower (tallest standing structure in the world). Looking over the edge, I felt like I was seriously going to have a heart attack. If the magnatude of that experience rattles me so much, then how much more would it be to see God.

Popeyesays said:

Everything that exists is a "token" of God's existence, but nothing is the image of God. His creation cannot possess an image of God because God is not part of this universe, but rather the Primal Cause for its existence.

Regards,
Scott

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I believe that God is both the Primal Cause AND part of the Universe. If God is in all things then he must also be in the Universe and in us and in the birds of the air and the fishes in the sea. He must be in the wind and rain and the sun and the moon. Quoting from the Bible here for a minute, God said "I AM". God also said that he was the Alpha and the Omega...the beginning and the end. So it would seem to me that God IS...everything and everyone, or at least a part of everything and everyone.

maggie2 said:

I believe that God is both the Primal Cause AND part of the Universe. If God is in all things then he must also be in the Universe and in us and in the birds of the air and the fishes in the sea. He must be in the wind and rain and the sun and the moon. Quoting from the Bible here for a minute, God said "I AM". God also said that he was the Alpha and the Omega...the beginning and the end. So it would seem to me that God IS...everything and everyone, or at least a part of everything and everyone.

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Is the artist in the painting? Even a self-portrait cannot depict the painter moving, breathing, speaking, in three dimensions. Will it bleed when you prick it?

God is not containable, certainly not within His Own creation.

"PROOFS AND EVIDENCES OF THE EXISTENCE OF GOD
One of the proofs and demonstrations of the existence of God is the fact that man did not create himself: nay, his creator and designer is another than himself.
It is certain and indisputable that the creator of man is not like man because a powerless creature cannot create another being. The maker, the creator, has to possess all perfections in order that he may create.
Can the creation be perfect and the creator imperfect? Can a picture be a masterpiece and the painter imperfect in his art? For it is his art and his creation. Moreover, the picture cannot be like the painter; otherwise, the painting would have created itself. However perfect the picture may be, in comparison with the painter it is in the utmost degree of imperfection.
The contingent world is the source of imperfections: God is the origin of perfections. The imperfections of the contingent world are in themselves a proof of the perfections of God.
For example, when you look at man, you see that he is weak. This very weakness of the creature is a proof of the power of the Eternal Almighty One, because, if there were no power, weakness could not be imagined. Then the weakness of the creature is a proof of the power of God; for if there were no power, there could be no weakness; so from this weakness it becomes evident that there is power in the world. Again, in the contingent world there is poverty; then necessarily wealth exists, since poverty is 6 apparent in the world. In the contingent world there is ignorance; necessarily knowledge exists, because ignorance is found; for if there were no knowledge, neither would there be ignorance. Ignorance is the nonexistence of knowledge, and if there were no existence, nonexistence could not be realized.
It is certain that the whole contingent world is subjected to a law and rule which it can never disobey; even man is forced to submit to death, to sleep and to other conditions -- that is to say, man in certain particulars is governed, and necessarily this state of being governed implies the existence of a governor. Because a characteristic of contingent beings is dependency, and this dependency is an essential necessity, therefore, there must be an independent being whose independence is essential.
In the same way it is understood from the man who is sick that there must be one who is in health; for if there were no health, his sickness could not be proved.
Therefore, it becomes evident that there is an Eternal Almighty One, Who is the possessor of all perfections, because unless He possessed all perfections He would be like His creation.
Throughout the world of existence it is the same; the smallest created thing proves that there is a creator. For instance, this piece of bread proves that it has a maker.
Praise be to God! the least change produced in the form of the smallest thing proves the existence of a creator: then can this great universe, which is endless, be self-created and come into existence from the action of matter and the elements? How self-evidently wrong is such a supposition!"

(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 6)

Regards,
Scott