Did the Babylonians invent Judaism?

Godwilling · Apr 24, 2012

The few versions of the creation and up to chapter 5 of Genesis was written in Aramaic, the language of the Assyrians and Chaldean to this day.

The Yazidi of Nineveh still believe in Lucifer as the archangel of God and take exception to those that say that he turned against God and became Satan. In other words, they believe in Genesis pre-Satan.

Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Lot, etc are described in the Bible as Babylonians. Is it not possible that the religion that became Judaism was a Babylonian invention?

Ilisrum · Apr 24, 2012

Godwilling said:
The few versions of the creation and up to chapter 5 of Genesis was written in Aramaic, the language of the Assyrians and Chaldean to this day.

It's written in Hebrew actually. And the Assyrians spoke a dialect of Akkadian, they wouldn't adopt Aramaic until later.

Godwilling said:
Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Lot, etc are described in the Bible as Babylonians. Is it not possible that the religion that became Judaism was a Babylonian invention?

I don't think the Torah ever says Noah was Mesopotamian. Although the ancient Hebrews borrowed some of their traditions and mythologies from Mesopotamia (it was kind of hard not to), it's pretty obvious that ancient Israelite religion was rooted in traditional Canaanite religion and developed into something distinct from it over time.

Levite · Apr 24, 2012

Godwilling said:
The few versions of the creation and up to chapter 5 of Genesis was written in Aramaic, the language of the Assyrians and Chaldean to this day.

The Yazidi of Nineveh still believe in Lucifer as the archangel of God and take exception to those that say that he turned against God and became Satan. In other words, they believe in Genesis pre-Satan.

Noah, Abraham, Sarah, Lot, etc are described in the Bible as Babylonians. Is it not possible that the religion that became Judaism was a Babylonian invention?

Genesis, like the rest of the Torah, and most of the Tanakh, was written in Hebrew. It wasn't even translated into Aramaic until the first century CE.

Jews have never believed in an angel called Lucifer, and mainstream Judaism never embraced the idea of fallen angels at all (holding instead that angels have no free will, and are thus incapable of rebellion, or even dissatisfaction).

Abraham is described as coming from Ur Kasdim (Ur of the Chaldees, usually associated with Uruk), which was Mesopotamian, but predates both Babylon and the Aramaic language.

And, of course, Judaism had been in existence for somewhere between five hundred to a thousand years before the Babylonians conquered the Land of Israel and brought the Jewish People into Exile.

There are ways in which Babylonian thought and culture did influence Judaism-- some quite significantly. But they did not invent Judaism, or even reinvent it. That is simply an insupportable hypothesis.

Godwilling · Apr 24, 2012

Ilisrum said:
the Assyrians spoke a dialect of Akkadian, they wouldn't adopt Aramaic until later.

Aramaic is and was the language of the Assyrians, and Chaldean and it became the lingua franca of the rest of the Babylonians. The Jews learn it as a form of survival when Nebuchadnezzar invaded them in January 589 BC.

I don't think the Torah ever says Noah was Mesopotamian.

The Torah may not say those exact words, but the Torah says that Adam lived in Eden (Chaldea, Babylon) and that their descendents lived in the region until Abraham from Ur (Chaldea, Babylon) left with his wife Sarah and his nephew Lot.

...Unless Noah was not part of the dynasty as the Torah says he was...

Bob Dixon · Apr 24, 2012

I think every thread that is even remotely related to Judaism should have a "Summon Levite" button.
It would make things so much more efficient around here.

outhouse · Apr 24, 2012

Is it not possible that the religion that became Judaism was a Babylonian invention?

No, judaism is a way of life not lived by mesopotamian's ever.

Now with that said, people did migrate from Canaan and Mesopotamia and Egypt and nomadic tribes of semetic speaking people as all the government's of all large civilizations collapsed.

Ancient hebrews were a melting pot, and all these foriegn people brought their religions with them and it all funneled into a grab bag based on a small family of deities and EL from Mesopotamia, and Yahweh possible from Edom, along with Asherah and Baal from their origins.

gnostic · Apr 25, 2012

bob dixon said:
I think every thread that is even remotely related to Judaism should have a "Summon Levite" button.
It would make things so much more efficient around here.

Hear, hear!

Jayhawker Soule · Apr 25, 2012

Godwilling said:
Godwilling said:

The few versions of the creation and up to chapter 5 of Genesis was written in Aramaic, the language of the Assyrians and Chaldean to this day.

Click to expand...

Levite said:

Genesis, like the rest of the Torah, and most of the Tanakh, was written in Hebrew. It wasn't even translated into Aramaic until the first century CE.

Click to expand...

Godwilling said:

Aramaic is and was the language of the Assyrians, and Chaldean and it became the lingua franca of the rest of the Babylonians. The Jews learn it as a form of survival when Nebuchadnezzar invaded them in January 589 BC.

Click to expand...

You begin your OP with a remarkably ignorant claim. It is predictably and appropriately denounce, and you simply move on.

You clearly know nothing about your subject. Stop embarrassing yourself and stop insulting us.

Jayhawker Soule · Apr 25, 2012

Godwilling said:
The Torah may not say those exact words, but the Torah says that Adam lived in Eden (Chaldea, Babylon) ...

The Eden of Genesis has been variously located at the headwaters of the Tigris and Euphrates in northern Iraq, in Africa, and in the Persian Gulf. The Eden in Ezekiel, however, is unequivocally located in Lebanon. [wiki]

Caladan · Apr 25, 2012

Ignoring for a second much of the false information in the OP. We should also ask... Did perhistoric people in the African continent invented humanity? or while we are at it did single celled organism invented Classical civilization?

Flankerl · Apr 25, 2012

Join the double celled organisms now! Single celled organisms are inferior to us!

Join the DCP(Double Celled Party) now. For a society free of single cellers!

Godwilling · Apr 26, 2012

Jayhawker Soule said:

Except that Eden was and continues to be as described in Genesis where the Tigris and the Euphrates Rivers merge a few Km south of Basrah.

Genesis 2:10-14 "Now a river went out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it parted and became four riverheads. 11 The name of the first is Pishon; it is the one which skirts http://biblia.com/books/nkjv/Ge2.10-14#footnote0the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 And the gold of that land is good. http://biblia.com/books/nkjv/Ge2.10-14#footnote1Bdellium and the onyx stone are there. 13 The name of the second river is Gihon; it is the one which goes around the whole land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is http://biblia.com/books/nkjv/Ge2.10-14#footnote2Tigris; http://biblia.com/books/nkjv/Ge2.10-14#footnote3it is the one which goes toward the east of http://biblia.com/books/nkjv/Ge2.10-14#footnote4Assyria. The fourth river is the Euphrates".

Meso ("Between" in Greek) Potamia ("Rivers" in Greek) is the other name for Assyria (Ashshur in Aramaic and in Hebrew).Ashurbanipal was their king 668-627 BC.

Basrah is 200 kilometers south southeast of Ur, the city by the Eurphrates from where Abraham was supposed to be. There is a small village with that name in the same location and the Chaldeans maintain that it was the original location of Eden.

fallingblood · Apr 26, 2012

Sounds like the Da Vinci Code. Just not as entertaining.

outhouse · Apr 26, 2012

Godwilling said:
Except that Eden was and continues to be as described in Genesis where the Tigris and the Euphrates Rivers merge a few Km south of Basrah.

Genesis 2:10-14 "Now a river went out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it parted and became four riverheads. 11 The name of the first is Pishon; it is the one which skirts the whole land of Havilah, where there is gold. 12 And the gold of that land is good. Bdellium and the onyx stone are there. 13 The name of the second river is Gihon; it is the one which goes around the whole land of Cush. 14 The name of the third river is Tigris; it is the one which goes toward the east of Assyria. The fourth river is the Euphrates".

Meso ("Between" in Greek) Potamia ("Rivers" in Greek) is the other name for Assyria (Ashshur in Aramaic and in Hebrew).Ashurbanipal was their king 668-627 BC.

Basrah is 200 kilometers south southeast of Ur, the city by the Eurphrates from where Abraham was supposed to be. There is a small village with that name in the same location and the Chaldeans maintain that it was the original location of Eden.

One they dont know where eden is because as far as history in concerned it only exist in literature

next if it were true it only shows that mesopotamians migrated at some point to become Israeli's

gnostic · Apr 27, 2012

godwilling said:
Except that Eden was and continues to be as described in Genesis where the Tigris and the Euphrates Rivers merge a few Km south of Basrah.

Except that wasn't the case in the 3rd and 2nd millennia BCE. Even during the 3rd dynasty of Ur (last quarter of the 3rd millenium BCE), the city Ur was a coastal city. Euphrates and Tigris were merged until the late 2nd millennium BCE; the 2 rivers used to empty out into the Persian Gulf separately. So supposedly in the creation of Adam, the Flood, from Abraham to Jacob, much of the area, including Basrah was still underwater.

Godwilling · Apr 27, 2012

outhouse said:
One they dont know where eden is because as far as history in concerned it only exist in literature

I am not saying that the story is true. I have not seen any historical evidence of it, and I don't know that any exists. I am saying that the story is about people and places of Mesopotamia/Assyria/Babylon.

next if it were true it only shows that mesopotamians migrated at some point to become Israeli's

There is no historical evidence that Abraham migrated from Ur, or that he existed for that matter. There is abundant historical proof that the Babylonians invaded Israel twice and that they brought with them language (Aramaic), and culture.

Each of the people conquered by the Greeks, Romans, Spaniards, English, etc. adopted their conquerors' language, aspects of their culture, and their religion. What are the odds that the people of Palestine did not adopt the same from their twice invaders the Babylonians?

outhouse · Apr 27, 2012

There is no historical evidence that Abraham migrated from Ur,

yet we know many of the Mesopotamians did migrate to Israel around 1200 BC

I understand Abraham has no historicity

Godwilling · Apr 27, 2012

outhouse said:
yet we know many of the Mesopotamians did migrate to Israel around 1200 BC

I understand Abraham has no historicity

No argument with either statement. My question remains, "Is it not possible that the religion that became Judaism was a Babylonian invention?"

Maybe I should change the word "Babylonian" for "Mesopotamian" to include Assyrians, Chaldean, Babylonians, Aramaeans, and other people that settled in the region.

outhouse · Apr 28, 2012

"Is it not possible that the religion that became Judaism was a Babylonian invention?"

Absolutely not.

From ancient writings that go back to 1000 BC, Hebrews had their own unique identity, because they were a melting pot of different cultures.

Majority were Canaanite with heavy Egyptian influences, Then Mesopotamioans and of course Egyptians.

Because babylonians took down the city doesnt mean they could invent a religion for different people, so forget the conquest.

Influenced yes!!! most scholars agree. There is zero evidence of a dramitic change due to that culture you could pin on Mesopotamians as being the complete originator for said people's beliefs

Not only that hebrews loved their yahweh, had Mesopotamians forced a religion on them, you would have a different deity well known in Mesopotamian mythology.

remember Mesopotamians have less mytery then hebrews becuase the had advanced writing and recording skills, that took hebrews hundreds of years to develop and evolve.

Desert Snake · Apr 28, 2012

no, because it was two different civilizations.

Did the Babylonians invent Judaism?

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