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When it changed from LAW to GRACE ?

dan p

Member
(Bible
let's see..

(New Testament | John 20:22 - 23)
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

this is talking about the priesthood -


Hi , and where ih John 20:22 an 23 is the Priesthood mentioned ?

dan p
 

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Read the Book of Romans, seems pretty clear to me.


Oh, wait, you're not one of these guys that doesn't believe in the legitimacy of the Book of Romans are you?! :D

Basically, if it's in the KJV most people are going to subscribe to it.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Read the Book of Romans, seems pretty clear to me.


Oh, wait, you're not one of these guys that doesn't believe in the legitimacy of the Book of Romans are you?! :D

Basically, if it's in the KJV most people are going to subscribe to it.

Romans is not entirely clear, the way many anti-nomians interpret it, it contradicts itself and ignores what it says earlier.

2:13 and 3:31 clearly indicate that the Law is still binding and obedience is what makes one justified, the context of its relation to salvation is the question, but many straight up throw those verses out as if they're negated by what Paul says later.

There's also the theories like of Goodspeed that Romans and Corinthians are edited patchworks, especially cause they're very long for "epistles".
 

idea

Question Everything
Hi , and where ih John 20:22 an 23 is the Priesthood mentioned ?

dan p

The priesthood is the authority and power that God gives to man to act in all things for the salvation of man - John 20:22-23 is describing some of the priesthood duties - which include administering in baptismal ordinances (which involve washing away sins), and being a judge in Israel.

(New Testament | Matthew 16:19)
19 And I will give unto thee the keys (of the priesthood) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

the same vein as:
John 20:23 (D&C 132:46) whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted

more priesthood scriptures:
Their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood, Ex. 40:15 (Num. 25:13). I have ordained you, John 15:16. Ye are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, 1 Pet. 2:5. Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, 1 Pet. 2:9 (Ex. 19:6). Men are called as high priests because of their exceeding faith and good works, Alma 13:1–12.
 

obi one

Member
The priesthood is the authority and power that God gives to man to act in all things for the salvation of man - John 20:22-23 is describing some of the priesthood duties - which include administering in baptismal ordinances (which involve washing away sins), and being a judge in Israel.

(New Testament | Matthew 16:19)
19 And I will give unto thee the keys (of the priesthood) of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

the same vein as:
John 20:23 (D&C 132:46) whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted

more priesthood scriptures:
Their anointing shall surely be an everlasting priesthood, Ex. 40:15 (Num. 25:13). I have ordained you, John 15:16. Ye are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, 1 Pet. 2:5. Ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, 1 Pet. 2:9 (Ex. 19:6). Men are called as high priests because of their exceeding faith and good works, Alma 13:1–12.

Maybe I missed something, but being a judge refers to after the Satan was bound for a 1000 years (Rev 20:2). Unless you are living in a different plain of existance than I, Satan is still quite active. Just read these forums. As for the priesthood being able to remit sins, the evidence is in whether the man can now walk, where before he was lame. Other than that, you are simply another version of the Roman church, who professes to remit the sins of the soul, and somehow differentiates the body from the soul, and leaves the body a cripple. We have enough Vicars of Christ as it is. Mt 23:8," But do not be called Rabbi; for one is your teacher, and you are all brothers."
 

jtartar

Well-Known Member
Hi to all , and my greatest challenge to all , is to write why the Gospels are Part of the OT and why it changed in Acts 9:6 , because in Acts is a HARD and Transditional book and mis-understood , but here we will shift gears and show why Paul was chosen for a new message ,

It is found in Rom 1:1 , and for those who to not understand Dispensational thought , it may and WILL be harder to understand .

Rom 1:1 reads in a literal translation as follows ; Paul a slave of Jesus Christ a called apostle , HAVING BEEN SEPARATED for God's gospel .

In Gal 1:15 , Paul was already SEPERATED , from his mothers womb , and having called by HIS GRACE , GRACE , but no one believes that it was by Grace .

Having been sepatated , is A PERFECT TENSE , PASSIVE and a PARTICIPLE verb , and means the following .

SEPARATED/ APHORIZO is translated 3 ways ;
By Separated
By Limited
By Boundries

When Saul was called , chosen and elected , Saul was separated , boundries were set and Paul was then LIMITED to only preach Grace , and let the debate begin !!

#1 , APHORIZO is in the Present tense that happened in the Past .
This means that when Saul was saved in Acts 9:6 Saul was separated to only preach the Gospel of God , which only Paul was allowed to be preach , because Paul is the Apostle to the Gentiles .

The 12 , were apostles to the Jews and ONLY to Israel .

The Past Actions , means that Saul could NEVER again be allowed to teach the Law of Moses or ever again be a Pharisee and the Present results are to teach Grace from then on ,

#2 , The Passive voice , speaks to , God put Saul into the Ministry , so where is the so-called FREE WILL ??

There is no free will !!

#3 , It is a Participle and see the translation , HAVING BEEN SEPARATED !!


Saul is the FIRST/PROTOS saved by Grace and and no one will ever can DISPUTE IT , dan p

dan p,
For over 1,500 years the Jews were under the Mosaic Law Covenant. One of the very important things Jesus came to do was to fulfill all the things said about him in the law, the Psalms and the prophets, Matt 5:17,18, Luke 24:44. Just before Jesus died he said, It is accomplished,John 19:30.
At that time the Mosaic Law Covenant ended, Col 2:13,14. A critical thing was to fulfill the Law and take it out of the way, because everyone under the Mosaic Law Covenant was under a curse, Gal 3:10-14. The Law actually condemned everyone under it to death, Rom 6:23, 7:6, 8:1-8, 2Cor 3:6,7. The reason that the Law condemned everyone under it to death was because it was impossible for a human to obey the Law perfectly, Actc 15:10,11, Heb 7:11, 9:8-10, 10:1-3. If ONE part of the Law was broken, ALL the Law was broken, James 2:10.
By relying on faith, NOT LAW the disciples could be counted as PERFECT, Heb 10:14. By faith they would come under the great Ransom that God provided, by sending His son to give his life as a CORRESPONDING RANSOM for all mankind that would have faith in that provision, 1Tim 2:4-6.
The term Grace means Undeserved Kindness. Under undeserved Kindness a believer can be declared righteous without being perfect. Declared Righteous is the same as being Justified. Being Justified by works, as under the Law was impossible, but being Justified, or Declared Righteous by FAITH a believer was counted as PERFECTED FOREVER, because of Jesus Ransom Sacrifice of his perfect body. Because Jesus is alive forever his sacrifice continues forever, so a believer does not have his sins charged against him, but they are forgiven because of Jesus Ransom Sacrifice, Heb 10:14-18.
Jesus has been put in place as High Priest, Heb 5:1-5, 7:17. Since Jesus is alive forever, he has no successors to the Priesthood, Heb 7:23-25. Since the Priesthood is being changed there is a necessity for the Law also to be changed, Heb 7:11-19.
The new law code that Christians are under is much superior than the Mosaic Law Covenant. This covenant is based on the blood of Jesus Christ, the son of God and not on the blood of sheep, bulls, and goats. Consider how Paul explains the New Covenant at Heb 8:6-13. This New Covenant is the Covenant that Jesus instituted on the night before his death, Luke 22:19,20.
Under the New Covenant we do not have to go through all the sacrifices, brcause Jesus gave a sacrifice for our sins ONCE, for all time, Heb 9:23-28. The Mosaic Law was a negative law covenant, we are under a POSITIVE set of laws, Matt 7:12, John 13:34,35. We are under that law of LOVE, Matt 22:37-40. Notice that love of neighbor and love for God is the fulfillment of the whole law code, Rom 13:8-10.
 

Shermana

Heretic
For over 1,500 years the Jews were under the Mosaic Law Covenant.

And we see earlier evidence of similarities to this Law such as with Noah who was told to carry extra Clean animals so he could make sacrifices.

One of the very important things Jesus came to do was to fulfill all the things said about him in the law, the Psalms and the prophets, Matt 5:17,18, Luke 24:44. Just before Jesus died he said, It is accomplished,John 19:30.

But what exactly did Jesus mean by "It's accomplished"? A new covenant? His serving as the Sacrifice? The annulling of the Mosaic Law which he said he didn't mean to abolish? Who says exactly?

At that time the Mosaic Law Covenant ended, Col 2:13,14.

No, the Mosaic Law he said would last forever, nothing ended. Peter was still believing in the Mosaic Law long after, either he didn't believe Jesus or missed the memo until Paul came along later, but the initial church apparently didn't know about the ending of the Law.

A critical thing was to fulfill the Law and take it out of the way, because everyone under the Mosaic Law Covenant was under a curse, Gal 3:10-14.

But what exactly is the meaning of that curse?
The Law actually condemned everyone under it to death, Rom 6:23, 7:6, 8:1-8, 2Cor 3:6,7.

So then, what happened to Ananias and Saphira who supposedly weren't under the Law, but short changed the church on the value of their home? Does the New Covenant not put people to death who break it while they are "under it"? If not, explain Ananias and Sapphira's deaths.

What do you think it means to be "under it", obviously it doesn't curse anyone who doesn't break it, thus to be "under" the Law means to break it. Now do you believe there is no penalty for breaking the Law? According to 1 John, no true "Christian" will break any commandment ever. This doesn't mean that their sins don't count as sins, and 1 John is clear that breaking the Mosaic Law is what defines sin.

The reason that the Law condemned everyone under it to death was because it was impossible for a human to obey the Law perfectly, Actc 15:10,11, Heb 7:11, 9:8-10, 10:1-3. If ONE part of the Law was broken, ALL the Law was broken, James 2:10.

The word "Panton" means all of it as an entirety, not individually. Thus, commiting Adultery is as breaking the entirety of the Law as is Murder, but what if James hadn't compared two death-penalty worthy sins? Why does Paul say that Fornicators won't enter the Kingdom? Even Paul has some "Legalism" going on by saying that unrepentant sinners will not enter the Kingdom, even saying that everyone must "work out their salvation in fear and trembling". The Law condemns one to die if they break a death-penalty commandment. Does this mean that a "Christian" need not follow the Law? Does this mean they can commit adultery and steal as they will without any effect on their salvation?

By relying on faith, NOT LAW the disciples could be counted as PERFECT, Heb 10:14.

But it also says that anyone who continues to "sin" after receiving knowledge of the truth (defined as "Lawlessness") in 10:26 will not have any more sacrifice for their sins. The meaning of that is not that they don't need any, but that they will not have a second chance, the idea is that Christ's sacrifice does not apply for future sins. So what is this "faith" exactly? Does everyone who calls themselves "Christian" have this faith? Does this "faith" involve not disobeying any of the Law and not making any mistakes? Does this "faith" allow you to do whatever you want under the idea that you're "free" and "Forgiven"? Is there no limit to behavior now?

By faith they would come under the great Ransom that God provided, by sending His son to give his life as a CORRESPONDING RANSOM for all mankind that would have faith in that provision, 1Tim 2:4-6.

And faith in what exactly? Only that he died and paid for our sins? Or faith in his actual teachings? How much value do you place in the actual teachings of Jesus himself? Like many others, I see you rely mainly on Epistle material rather than Gospel.


The term Grace means Undeserved Kindness. Under undeserved Kindness a believer can be declared righteous without being perfect. Declared Righteous is the same as being Justified.

Who do you suppose gets this "Grace"? Do you think it matters on interpretation and denomination? Do you think anyone who calls themselves "Christian" gets this grace? Do you think they have to maintain a certain type of behavior to maintain this grace? Do you think Paul agreed that this "Grace" does in fact have conditions as in don't murder and fornicate? Wouldn't that be conditional?

Being Justified by works, as under the Law was impossible,

What does "justified" mean? If it was impossible to be justified under the law, than Paul wouldn't have said in Romans 2:13 that those who do the law WOULD be "justified." Clearly, the people in the Old Testament times were saved from destruction when they returned to the Law, and were destroyed when they didn't obey the Law. What exactly is this "justification" about then? Was it about if they went to hell or not? Or if they were punished in this life? Why does Jesus say that one's "righteousness must exceed the scribes and pharisees to enter the kingdom"? What does it mean to be juistfied or "declared righteous"? Does not the OT specifically say that "Righteousness" say that obedience to G-d's commandments is what caused Abraham to be called righteous in addition to his faith?

but being Justified, or Declared Righteous by FAITH a believer was counted as PERFECTED FOREVER,

Where does it say they were counted as perfected forever? Why would Paul say that those in his church who committed sins like fornication or even jealousy and anger unrepentantly would not be welcome into the Kingdom of Heaven? Do you think that one who claims to accept Jesus no longer sins, or that their sins simply don't count against them? Like a person who fornicates simply isn't counted as a fornicator? Otherwise, we can clearly see that those who merely profess faith in Christ are often doing what Paul says is not allowed for those who enter the Kingdom. Do you not think there is a process of perfecting? Do you think they are counted as perfected instantly?

because of Jesus Ransom Sacrifice of his perfect body. Because Jesus is alive forever his sacrifice continues forever, so a believer does not have his sins charged against him, but they are forgiven because of Jesus Ransom Sacrifice, Heb 10:14-18.

Do you believe they are forgiven forever and they need not be concerned about maintaining this forgiveness?

Jesus has been put in place as High Priest, Heb 5:1-5, 7:17. Since Jesus is alive forever, he has no successors to the Priesthood, Heb 7:23-25. Since the Priesthood is being changed there is a necessity for the Law also to be changed, Heb 7:11-19.

What kind of "priesthood" do you think the Malchezdiek priesthood entails, what kinds of special responsibilities? Are they the ones who will make the Sacrifices during the Third Temple as outlined in Ezekiel and Zechariah?

The new law code that Christians are under is much superior than the Mosaic Law Covenant.

Define what you think "superior" means and why it's superior.

This covenant is based on the blood of Jesus Christ, the son of God and not on the blood of sheep, bulls, and goats.

Please explain why you think that makes it "Superior" and what you think of the passages that indicate there will be sacrifices in the future? Even Gotquestions.org admits it says there will be sacrifices in the future.

Consider how Paul explains the New Covenant at Heb 8:6-13. This New Covenant is the Covenant that Jesus instituted on the night before his death, Luke 22:19,20.

Why do you believe Paul wrote Hebrews exactly? Hardly anyone does anymore. Do you think the "New Covenant" is the same one spoken of in Jeremiah where all true believers will have "The Law written on their hearts"?

Under the New Covenant we do not have to go through all the sacrifices, brcause Jesus gave a sacrifice for our sins ONCE, for all time, Heb 9:23-28.

So what do you do with the passages that indicate that there will be sacrifices in the future like in Zecariah 14?

The Mosaic Law was a negative law covenant, we are under a POSITIVE set of laws, Matt 7:12,

Please explain why one is negative and the other is positive, and what you mean by negative and positive. Are you saying there are no "Do nots" in the New Covenant? No warnings? A big party where everyone is invited and can do what they want without worries of getting kicked out?

John 13:34,35. We are under that law of LOVE,

Please explain in detail what you think the "Law of LOVE" means and what "Love" is defined as in the NT and your beliefs.
Matt 22:37-40. Notice that love of neighbor and love for God is the fulfillment of the whole law code, Rom 13:8-10.

That's a very common misinterpretation, the idea is that "Love for G-d and neighbor" is what defines each of the commandments. Failing to perform certain commandments is thus failing to truly Love G-d. What do you think "love" actually means? Thus, by refusing to honor the Sabbath, you are failing to truly Love G-d, your claim of "love for G-d" is your own definition rather than what he wants. Like claiming to love your dad but refusing to do your chores when he asks. See 1 John 5:3. The passage you speak of is not saying "Love G_d and your neighbor and you don't have to worry about all the other laws except those two". Each law is about how to love.

If you only claim to love but don't do the actual commandments, your talk of "love" is just an abstract idea.
 
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