Life After Death shown beyond reasonable doubt?

Thief · Apr 17, 2012

work in progress said:
This is another thread that I haven't been able to read many posts on, but I just want to put out there that even if the highly unlikely stories of a few NDE's were correct, it would still not serve as proof for disembodied souls or life after death. There are lots of supernatural believers who are trying to prove ESP and telekenesis etc., and if one of these NDE's violated all the natural methods of explanation, it would still be no different than remote viewing or other similar stories.

The real truth is that cognitive psychologists and neuroscientists are learning more and more every year about how our brain's function, and with the new knowledge, the conclusion is inescapable that a mind has to be embodied! There is no means for a mind to function without the brain's subsystems that process sensory data and information.
For more: Embodied cognition - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But, the good news for any frequent Oprah guests like Deepak Chopra etc., is that the gravy train of writing books and lecturing on life after death will never end, because it's all about wish fulfillment, and our highest primal interest is self-preservation. The problem is that since the brain creates a mind that feels like it is in control of/rather than being part of a physical body, it has a desire to be immortal somehow, and either creates myths about bringing the body back from the dead, or having a soul that lives on forever.

You've not heard of Edgar Cayce?

True enough there is a chain that binds you to that parcel of flesh.
As you continue breathing, you want to continue breathing.

When that fails...into the ground you go.

You think you are in control because you can say or do as you please.
If your hand does anything at all, it's because you thought you should, or because you felt like it.
This will end.

When this ends there will be only one desire waiting for you.
The desire to stand up.
I suggest you go for it.
It will happen in spirit, as your body will at last fail to respond.

6billiion copies of this form...and no survivors?

Unlikely so.

no-body · Apr 17, 2012

Thief said:
You've not heard of Edgar Cayce?

Ha. Edgar Cayce. Now we are on the scientific track

work in progress · Apr 17, 2012

Thief said:
You've not heard of Edgar Cayce?

I couldn't help but here of him, since my mother had been a fan, and had a book by Cayce wherein he predicted that Atlantis would rise out of the sea between 1968 and 1969.....can we put that "prophecy" to rest and move on?

True enough there is a chain that binds you to that parcel of flesh.
As you continue breathing, you want to continue breathing.

When that fails...into the ground you go.

You think you are in control because you can say or do as you please.
If your hand does anything at all, it's because you thought you should, or because you felt like it.
This will end.

When this ends there will be only one desire waiting for you.
The desire to stand up.
I suggest you go for it.
It will happen in spirit, as your body will at last fail to respond.

6billiion copies of this form...and no survivors?

Unlikely so.

This might be a little too cryptic for me to try to break down, but "there is a chain that binds you to that parcel of flesh"is just another expression of the way our brain creates the illusion of "mind" in control of physical body. This is a necessary illusion for us to function in everyday life, but we have to come to terms at some point with the fact that it is not evidence for any immaterial self existing separately from the body. All of the neurological evidence about how the mind really functions is that physical neurochemical responses long precede any sense of awareness of making even the simplest decisions. Brain acts first, and then mind is created to take ownership of those actions.

The point of research on embodied cognition is increasing evidence that there is no way to separate the manifestations of mind: thoughts, emotions, memories, sights, sounds etc. from the workings of the brain with the body's nervous system and feedback from hormones and neurochemicals that are generated to make that "mind" function. The real story of the mind is that it most fitting to compare it with the image on a TV screen, that presents a continuously moving set of images as long as the hardware inside the TV is functioning. Once you turn off the TV, there is no more picture....and once the body dies, there is no more mind or soul or spirit to move on and invade another body or go to some other world. It is illusory even while we have and experience our sense of mind, and it is completely gone when we cease to exist.

The Universe itself appears to be one of a vast multitude of universes that are seeded from collisions of pre-existing universes...and then grows until it reaches a point where it will evaporate or disintegrate in a 100 billion years or so. So nothing...not even the entire universe in which we live is immortal in any real sense of the word. The only thing that could possibly be immortal is the meta-universe or whatever we would call an 11 dimensional infinite backdrop that serves as the stage for universes coming in and going out of existence.

There is no claim I can make personally about why self-conscious awareness should even exist in the first place. And that's why ultimately, I would classify myself as a nihilist. Not that I don't believe in things or not have things that I am passionately living for -- but our mental fallibilities means to me that we can never know anything with complete certainty -- neither about ourselves or anything in the world around us. The only thing I can say for sure about consciousness is that it does provide a means for tiny pockets of the universe to be consciously aware and study everything....including the Universe.

9-10ths_Penguin · Apr 17, 2012

Thief said:
6billiion copies of this form...and no survivors?

Unlikely so.

IOW, "we're so awesome that the universe wouldn't just let us disappear."

Sounds a tad hubristic to me.

PolyHedral · Apr 17, 2012

Thief said:
6billiion copies of this form...and no survivors?

Unlikely so.

522857_10150761571099617_103137454616_146181326_1498655539_n.jpg

I'm aware that image macros aren't proper debate form, but that really sums up what I have to say. If faith needs no evidence, it also has no relevance, and I have far more useful ways to spend my time than listen to you spout illogic mashed up from a text older than the term "out of date."

Like discover how to work all these miracles you keep going on about.

George-ananda · Apr 17, 2012

ImmortalFlame said:
Nobody has every actually died (i.e. actual brain death) and lived to tell about it, so there is not a single example of anybody ever actually dying and coming back with an experience.

I have heard that all my life. But I think the statement is actually dead wrong (pun intended).

Have you ever looked at the work of the top quality mediums. The physically dead cannot rejuvenate their decayed bodies in the casket and crawl out or reconstitute their cremated ashes. The only way the physically dead can come back and communicate is through another psychic living human. And that I argue they have done many, many times.

Let me point out the work of one outstanding medium who was never a media superstar, Leslie Flint. He was a rare commodity, a direct-voice medium. The dead actually spoke in their own voices through his mediumship. They spoke sometimes for 20 to 30 minutes in very clear and articulate language about their life, their death experience, and their long term experiences in the spiritual realm.

Often they convey intimate details to their seated loved ones to confirm their identity.

In fact it seems people involved in psychic studies during their lifetime are the most eager to get their message through.

The great thing for us is that Leslie Flint lived in the age of tape recordings and there is a collection of the correspondences on the internet that anyone can listen to. www.leslieflint.com

Leslie Flint has said he is the most thoroughly tested medium in British history (gagged, tied-up, etc., etc,). The top scientists to test him have all concluded that whatever is going on
here is not a fraud.

I know the so-called skeptics claim that all mediums are concious or sub-concious frauds and they have all been 'debunked'. I say 'absolute BALONEY'.

atanu · Apr 17, 2012

George-ananda said:
I have heard that all my life. But I think the statement is actually dead wrong (pun intended).

Have you ever looked at the work of the top quality mediums. The physically dead cannot rejuvenate their decayed bodies in the casket and crawl out or reconstitute their cremated ashes. The only way the physically dead can come back and communicate is through another psychic living human. And that I argue they have done many, many times.

Let me point out the work of one outstanding medium who was never a media superstar, Leslie Flint. He was a rare commodity, a direct-voice medium. The dead actually spoke in their own voices through his mediumship. They spoke sometimes for 20 to 30 minutes in very clear and articulate language about their life, their death experience, and their long term experiences in the spiritual realm.

Often they convey intimate details to their seated loved ones to confirm their identity.

In fact it seems people involved in psychic studies during their lifetime are the most eager to get their message through.

The great thing for us is that Leslie Flint lived in the age of tape recordings and there is a collection of the correspondences on the internet that anyone can listen to. www.leslieflint.com

Leslie Flint has said he is the most thoroughly tested medium in British history (gagged, tied-up, etc., etc,). The top scientists to test him have all concluded that whatever is going on
here is not a fraud.

I know the so-called skeptics claim that all mediums are concious or sub-concious frauds and they have all been 'debunked'. I say 'absolute BALONEY'.

Dear Ananda

Rather than sweating over whether there is an afterlife or what I will be or what I was, I personally find that the present itself is not known. Surely, I am not the physical frame.

When one tracks one's own breath or one's own voice or one's own thoughts one finds a void, which however actuates the various apparent physical machines into working. Voice springs from physical apparatus. But the actuator is not physical. The person is also not a product of brain processes, since, the brain processes stop when the person stops breathing. A lump of flesh called brain does not say "intelligence sprouts from me".

It is, IMO, infinitely more interesting to investigate the Being in the present. And it is done better in private, occassionally sharing the resultant peace and joy with friends.

Regards

George-ananda · Apr 17, 2012

atanu said:
Dear Ananda

Rather than sweating over whether there is an afterlife or what I will be or what I was, I personally find that the present itself is not known. Surely, I am not the physical frame.

When one tracks one's own breath or one's own voice or one's own thoughts one finds a void, which however actuates the various apparent physical machines into working. Voice springs from physical apparatus. But the actuator is not physical. The person is also not a product of brain processes, since, the brain processes stop when the person stops breathing. A lump of flesh called brain does not say "intelligence sprouts from me".

It is, IMO, infinitely more interesting to investigate the Being in the present. And it is done better in private, occassionally sharing the resultant peace and joy with friends.

Regards

Dear atanu,

Thank you for your concern. But let me say this 'Life after Death' topic is just one of my many, many interests. This is just one thread I started (not an obsession).

My number one interest is the path of Self Realization using the assistance of the Sanatana Dharma tradition.

Regards

Thief · Apr 18, 2012

PolyHedral said:
I'm aware that image macros aren't proper debate form, but that really sums up what I have to say. If faith needs no evidence, it also has no relevance, and I have far more useful ways to spend my time than listen to you spout illogic mashed up from a text older than the term "out of date."

Like discover how to work all these miracles you keep going on about.

You may have noticed the miracles wee done that you might believe.
Apparently that effort failed for you.

Besides...you don't need miracles to believe.

That's like asking for proof of something that needs no proving.

oh that's right...that would be faith....and you're not willing.

Thief · Apr 18, 2012

work in progress said:
I couldn't help but here of him, since my mother had been a fan, and had a book by Cayce wherein he predicted that Atlantis would rise out of the sea between 1968 and 1969.....can we put that "prophecy" to rest and move on?

This might be a little too cryptic for me to try to break down, but "there is a chain that binds you to that parcel of flesh"is just another expression of the way our brain creates the illusion of "mind" in control of physical body. This is a necessary illusion for us to function in everyday life, but we have to come to terms at some point with the fact that it is not evidence for any immaterial self existing separately from the body. All of the neurological evidence about how the mind really functions is that physical neurochemical responses long precede any sense of awareness of making even the simplest decisions. Brain acts first, and then mind is created to take ownership of those actions.

The point of research on embodied cognition is increasing evidence that there is no way to separate the manifestations of mind: thoughts, emotions, memories, sights, sounds etc. from the workings of the brain with the body's nervous system and feedback from hormones and neurochemicals that are generated to make that "mind" function. The real story of the mind is that it most fitting to compare it with the image on a TV screen, that presents a continuously moving set of images as long as the hardware inside the TV is functioning. Once you turn off the TV, there is no more picture....and once the body dies, there is no more mind or soul or spirit to move on and invade another body or go to some other world. It is illusory even while we have and experience our sense of mind, and it is completely gone when we cease to exist.

The Universe itself appears to be one of a vast multitude of universes that are seeded from collisions of pre-existing universes...and then grows until it reaches a point where it will evaporate or disintegrate in a 100 billion years or so. So nothing...not even the entire universe in which we live is immortal in any real sense of the word. The only thing that could possibly be immortal is the meta-universe or whatever we would call an 11 dimensional infinite backdrop that serves as the stage for universes coming in and going out of existence.

There is no claim I can make personally about why self-conscious awareness should even exist in the first place. And that's why ultimately, I would classify myself as a nihilist. Not that I don't believe in things or not have things that I am passionately living for -- but our mental fallibilities means to me that we can never know anything with complete certainty -- neither about ourselves or anything in the world around us. The only thing I can say for sure about consciousness is that it does provide a means for tiny pockets of the universe to be consciously aware and study everything....including the Universe.

Making a specific forecast and it fails is not unusual.
Lots of people do that.
I don't trash all of their abilities when a fault appears.

That you fail to believe is simply too bad.
That you can't see past your immediate surroundings is shallow.

The chain that binds you could hold, even after death.
If you refuse to let go....
Into the box you will go...into the ground you will go....
Into eternal darkness you will go....and it is physically real.

I'm sure you don't need proof for that.

As for having experience beyond your physical perceptions....
isn't that what your mind and heart provide?....
when you not preoccupied with this world.

work in progress · Apr 18, 2012

Thief said:
Making a specific forecast and it fails is not unusual.
Lots of people do that.
I don't trash all of their abilities when a fault appears.

That you fail to believe is simply too bad.
That you can't see past your immediate surroundings is shallow.

The chain that binds you could hold, even after death.
If you refuse to let go....
Into the box you will go...into the ground you will go....
Into eternal darkness you will go....and it is physically real.

I'm sure you don't need proof for that.

As for having experience beyond your physical perceptions....
isn't that what your mind and heart provide?....
when you not preoccupied with this world.

There are many people that I like to talk to who have radically different beliefs than I do, and (as I've mentioned a few times previously) there are atheist/materialists who I started meeting when I got the idea to become an active atheist who totally made me sick, and I couldn't stand being around -- point being that I don't consider sharing the same beliefs to be the ties that bind. Since you do, that tells me that your beliefs are too fragile to allow in any sense of doubt. From your response, I am still not sure if you read past the first two lines of my post, and I'm still not sure....if it really matters.

Thief · Apr 18, 2012

9-10ths_Penguin said:
IOW, "we're so awesome that the universe wouldn't just let us disappear."

Sounds a tad hubristic to me.

I suspect,for the most part...that's exactly what happens.
We DO disappear.
Most of us fail.

Life in this world does seem chaotic and long life comes by chance.

The next life will likely have greater hurdles.

It takes discipline in this world.
How much more to enter the next?
How much more again to do well?

Thief · Apr 18, 2012

work in progress said:
There are many people that I like to talk to who have radically different beliefs than I do, and (as I've mentioned a few times previously) there are atheist/materialists who I started meeting when I got the idea to become an active atheist who totally made me sick, and I couldn't stand being around -- point being that I don't consider sharing the same beliefs to be the ties that bind. Since you do, that tells me that your beliefs are too fragile to allow in any sense of doubt. From your response, I am still not sure if you read past the first two lines of my post, and I'm still not sure....if it really matters.

The actually fault played.

If there life after death it will be the way you think and feel that will make all of the difference.

Will you not stand among those of similar belief?
They who have life eternal will seek those of similar heart?

How could you be happy? if you must share eternity with others that have nothing in common with you?

Sharing IS the tie that binds.

crystalonyx · Apr 18, 2012

Thief said:
The actually fault played.

If there life after death it will be the way you think and feel that will make all of the difference.

Will you not stand among those of similar belief?
They who have life eternal will seek those of similar heart?

How could you be happy? if you must share eternity with others that have nothing in common with you?

Sharing IS the tie that binds.

One problem, do you like being around people that think just like you all the time in real life? Think about who you married, if you are married, and what they are like.

Thief · Apr 18, 2012

crystalonyx said:
One problem, do you like being around people that think just like you all the time in real life? Think about who you married, if you are married, and what they are like.

The paradox played....good timing.

Each one of us is unique. Our linear existence insures it.
As we lay down to surrender our last breath...
Heaven might have some interest what stands up from the dust.

The angels might ask you a question...your response will make all the difference.
If you say as they do....perform as they do....fine and good.
They might then ask you to follow.

If not they might turn and leave you where you fell.
And the devil behind you will laugh.

Or perhaps you prefer to say...
All are welcome....all may follow....all may enter.
But that would make heaven some much like this earth.

Not really a place of peace.

idav · Apr 19, 2012

shawn001 said:
What kind of energy and chemicals is the life using to sustain itself after death?

You just need a medium that can hold the data. Like an electromagnetic field for example.

shawn001 · Apr 19, 2012

idav said:
You just need a medium that can hold the data. Like an electromagnetic field for example.

What does Data need to exist. What medium?

You need time, space and energy, an electromagnetic field would be detectable.

No one knows if there is life after death and beliefs and opinions are speculation. There is a lot of different speculation, from religion and science.

On the science side there is no evidence. Doesn't mean it doesn't happen in some way, but again that would be total speculation that it does happen.

It QM or multiverses they may even be more then one of you. Perhaps even in this univsere, although the odds of that would be astronomical.

beerisit · Apr 22, 2012

Thief said:
The paradox played....good timing.

Each one of us is unique. Our linear existence insures it.
As we lay down to surrender our last breath...
Heaven might have some interest what stands up from the dust.

The angels might ask you a question...your response will make all the difference.
If you say as they do....perform as they do....fine and good.
They might then ask you to follow.

If not they might turn and leave you where you fell.
And the devil behind you will laugh.

Or perhaps you prefer to say...
All are welcome....all may follow....all may enter.
But that would make heaven some much like this earth.

Not really a place of peace.

You seem to be very afraid of these "angels". I wonder why?

Life After Death shown beyond reasonable doubt?

Thief

Rogue Theologian

no-body

Well-Known Member

work in progress

Well-Known Member

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist

PolyHedral

Superabacus Mystic

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism

atanu

Member

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism

Thief

Rogue Theologian

Thief

Rogue Theologian

work in progress

Well-Known Member

Thief

Rogue Theologian

Thief

Rogue Theologian

crystalonyx

Well-Known Member

Thief

Rogue Theologian

idav

Being

shawn001

Well-Known Member

beerisit

Active Member