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Reason Rally: Mock Believers! - Dawkins

Road Warrior

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
jarofthoughts said:
As mentioned earlier, all camps have their morons, but as long as Dawkins and his peers do not in any way incite, encourage or indicate that violence is an accepted, let alone desired form of action, I don't see how he can be held accountable for what crazy people do.
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That's the point, they are inciting followers to act physically through bully tactics. How long before the bullying becomes physical?

Here's another example:
Sunday Sacrilege: Sacking the City of God - PZ Myers
I have a different metaphor for us, my brothers and sisters in atheism. We are not sheep; there are no shepherds here. I look out from this stage and I see 4000 pairs of hunter’s eyes, 4000 hunter’s minds, 4000 pairs of hunter’s hands. I see the primeval primate hunting band grown large and strong. I see us so confident in our strength that we laugh at our enemies. I see a people thinking and planning, fierce and focused, learning and building new tools to conquer new worlds.

You are not sheep. You, my brothers and sisters in atheism, are a fierce, coordinated hunting pack — men and women working together, and those other ******** have cause to fear us. So let’s do it: make them tremble as we demolish the city of god.
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Dawkins and Myers aren't the first to advocate "action" or attacking others for their beliefs, so I'm not accusing them of doing anything others haven't done before. I'm just pointing out that their claims to be members of a group advocating "free thinking", "reason" or "logic" is pure hype since their actions are only advocate free thinking as long as you believe their way and no other. They are about as "fair and balanced" as Fox News. Fine. Let the wars begin.
 
Road Warrior

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
9-10ths_Penguin said:
Am I the only person in this thread who's bothered to actually read the whole speech and hasn't gone off half-cocked at the word "mock"?
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Nope. Am I the only person who isn't an apologist for Dawkins and trying to defend anything he says no matter how provoking, unreasonable or inciting others to bully innocent bystanders?
 
Student of X

Student of X

Paradigm Shifter
I thought it might be fun to do an I-Ching reading for Dawkins. If he asked me for a reading, this is what he would get. I plugged his name in an out came hexagram 29 - 'Dangerously Deep':

SITUATION ANALYSIS:

You are facing a crucial trial along your Journey.
The danger of this challenge is very real.

There was a changing line:

'This dark pit you find yourself in is rife with traps and pitfalls.
Don't scramble toward freedom, but concentrate on one small toehold at a time'

The changing line leads to a new hexagram: Bonding.

'Deep Waters on the face of the Earth:
Surface waters flow together.
The Superior Person recognizes the situation calls for joining together.
Thus he cultivates friendly relations with all.'

So what I got from the reading is that Dawkins screwed up and will suffer from traps and pitfalls that he himself as sown. The only way out for him will be 'one toehold at a time', and if he is successful it will lead to friendly relations.

If not, the traps and pitfalls that were born from his foolishness will claim him.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Road Warrior said:
That's the point, they are inciting followers to act physically through bully tactics. How long before the bullying becomes physical?

Here's another example:
Sunday Sacrilege: Sacking the City of God - PZ Myers

Dawkins and Myers aren't the first to advocate "action" or attacking others for their beliefs, so I'm not accusing them of doing anything others haven't done before. I'm just pointing out that their claims to be members of a group advocating "free thinking", "reason" or "logic" is pure hype since their actions are only advocate free thinking as long as you believe their way and no other. They are about as "fair and balanced" as Fox News. Fine. Let the wars begin.
Click to expand...

Do you understand what "the City of God" refers to? He's talking about re-shaping society to meet a particular religious vision or "ideal". IOW, it means imposing that ideal on everyone, even those who do not hold it themselves. Damn straight this should be resisted.
 
Looncall

Looncall

Well-Known Member
Student of X said:
I thought it might be fun to do an I-Ching reading for Dawkins. If he asked me for a reading, this is what he would get. I plugged his name in an out came hexagram 29 - 'Dangerously Deep':

SITUATION ANALYSIS:

You are facing a crucial trial along your Journey.
The danger of this challenge is very real.

There was a changing line:

'This dark pit you find yourself in is rife with traps and pitfalls.
Don't scramble toward freedom, but concentrate on one small toehold at a time'

The changing line leads to a new hexagram: Bonding.

'Deep Waters on the face of the Earth:
Surface waters flow together.
The Superior Person recognizes the situation calls for joining together.
Thus he cultivates friendly relations with all.'

So what I got from the reading is that Dawkins screwed up and will suffer from traps and pitfalls that he himself as sown. The only way out for him will be 'one toehold at a time', and if he is successful it will lead to friendly relations.

If not, the traps and pitfalls that were born from his foolishness will claim him.
Click to expand...

The I Ching? Really?

Well, OK, if it's just for fun. (I do very much hope you weren't serious.)
 
Road Warrior

Road Warrior

Seeking the middle path..
9-10ths_Penguin said:
Do you understand what "the City of God" refers to? He's talking about re-shaping society to meet a particular religious vision or "ideal". IOW, it means imposing that ideal on everyone, even those who do not hold it themselves. Damn straight this should be resisted.
Click to expand...

Yes, he's speaking metaphorically. I get it. Thanks. Do you get that he, Dawkins and others are not satisfied with simply educating people about science, reason and the importance of respecting one another's opinions, but that they are openly advocating to force others to think their way through the use of bully tactics?
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Road Warrior said:
Nope. Am I the only person who isn't an apologist for Dawkins and trying to defend anything he says no matter how provoking, unreasonable or inciting others to bully innocent bystanders?
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Please explain how Dawkins is inciting anyone. From my reading, all he's saying is that when he encounters someone who he thinks is a religious hypocrite, his first instinct is to call them out on their hypocrisy. That's all. Do you think it's wrong to say this?
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Road Warrior said:
Yes, he's speaking metaphorically. I get it. Thanks. Do you get that he, Dawkins and others are not satisfied with simply educating people about science, reason and the importance of respecting one another's opinions, but that they are openly advocating to force others to think their way through the use of bully tactics?
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Absolutely not. Myers is advocating resistance against others who attempt to force their beliefs on us... IOW, pretty much the opposite of what you're claiming he's advocating.
 
Apex

Apex

Somewhere Around Nothing
9-10ths_Penguin said:
Absolutely not. Myers is advocating resistance against others who attempt to force their beliefs on us... IOW, pretty much the opposite of what you're claiming he's advocating.
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Sorry, but no. PZ is very emphatic against deconverting, and assaulting, all religious believers. Especially the moderate ones. The ones who do not attempt to force their beliefs.

(Emphasis mine)
PZ Myers said:
The sea our country is drowning in is a raging religiosity, wave after wave of ignorant arguments and ideological absurdities pushed by tired dogma and fervent and frustrated fanatics. We keep hearing that the answer is to find the still waters of a more moderate faith, but I'm sorry, I don't feel like drowning there either.
There is an answer, and it's on display right here in this room. The solution, the only longterm solution, is the sanity of secularism. The lesser struggles to keep silly stickers off our textbooks or to keep pseudoscientific BS like intelligent design out of our classrooms are important, but they are endless chores -- at some point we just have to stop pandering to the ideological noise that spawns these unending tasks and cut right to the source: religion.
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Confrontation all the way : Pharyngula
 
Student of X

Student of X

Paradigm Shifter
Might as well size up PZ through the I-Ching too. Lets plug his name in and see what comes out:

Hexagram 4- Inexperience

There is a changing line in the hexagram:

You are so terrified of being wrong, you leave no room for learning what is right.

After the changing line is incorporated, the new hexagram is :

64- The End In Sight

So, PZ is inexperienced in the area he talks of (religion). He is so terrified that the Truth can't get through to him. His 'end is in sight', meaning he is going to fall into the same traps and pitfalls that Dawkins probably will.

People like PZ and Dawkins are pitiable.
 
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Foxfire

Foxfire

It's all about the Light
Road Warrior said:
That's the point, they are inciting followers to act physically through bully tactics. How long before the bullying becomes physical?

Here's another example:
Sunday Sacrilege: Sacking the City of God - PZ Myers

Dawkins and Myers aren't the first to advocate "action" or attacking others for their beliefs, so I'm not accusing them of doing anything others haven't done before. I'm just pointing out that their claims to be members of a group advocating "free thinking", "reason" or "logic" is pure hype since their actions are only advocate free thinking as long as you believe their way and no other. They are about as "fair and balanced" as Fox News. Fine. Let the wars begin.
Click to expand...


Just jumping in here with my 2 cents. I read the above missive from Myers latest from another forum. I was flabbergasted! I thought I even might be reading the latest diatribe from Charles Manson! Mind you, I've never liked Myers, but this latest has to take the cake for plain stupidity and nastiness. There is something to be said for being always ON I suppose and Mr. Myers perhaps feel he owes this to his loving, loyal followers. I think he's a complete and utter bore and is completely in love with himself. And I am amazed at his defenders. And the number of his fans/followers. Oh well.... He and Dawkins make a fine pair and they won't be invited to my next party, I can tell you that.

So there.
 
jarofthoughts

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
Road Warrior said:
That's the point, they are inciting followers to act physically through bully tactics. How long before the bullying becomes physical?

Here's another example:
Sunday Sacrilege: Sacking the City of God - PZ Myers

Dawkins and Myers aren't the first to advocate "action" or attacking others for their beliefs, so I'm not accusing them of doing anything others haven't done before. I'm just pointing out that their claims to be members of a group advocating "free thinking", "reason" or "logic" is pure hype since their actions are only advocate free thinking as long as you believe their way and no other. They are about as "fair and balanced" as Fox News. Fine. Let the wars begin.
Click to expand...

Did you read the whole article?
PZ makes it very very clear that he is attacking an idea with another idea.
In fact, that is his whole point.

Nowhere is he advocating any kind of violent action.
Nowhere is he advocating hate towards any group of people.
 
9-10ths_Penguin

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Apex said:
Sorry, but no. PZ is very emphatic against deconverting, and assaulting, all religious believers. Especially the moderate ones. The ones who do not attempt to force their beliefs.

(Emphasis mine)

Confrontation all the way : Pharyngula
Click to expand...
It's amazing how the goalposts keep moving in this thread. First, it was Dawkins' speech. Then, Dawkins somehow became responsible for an article P.Z. Myers wrote (which was what I was responding to). Now, Richard Dawkins is responsible for every thought P.Z. Myers has ever expressed?
 
Reptillian

Reptillian

Hamburgler Extraordinaire
Student of X said:
Might as well size up PZ through the I-Ching too. Lets plug his name in and see what comes out:

Hexagram 4- Inexperience

There is a changing line in the hexagram:

You are so terrified of being wrong, you leave no room for learning what is right.

After the changing line is incorporated, the new hexagram is :

64- The End In Sight

So, PZ is inexperienced in the area he talks of (religion). He is so terrified that the Truth can't get through to him. His 'end is in sight', meaning he is going to fall into the same traps and pitfalls that Dawkins probably will.

People like PZ and Dawkins are pitiable.
Click to expand...

I have a copy of the I-Ching...how are you using it to do this? I want to try too. :)
 
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