num (for Christians to answer)

I can`t find any Midianite plot to destroy the Israelites.

The closest i can find is their alliance with the Amobites who were enemies if Israel but no direct connection with harming Israel.

It seems from reading Numbers and Dueteronomy the thing that made god mad was the immoral influence the Midianites had on the Israelites.

Nu. 23, 24, & 25, Balak and Balaam attempt to curse Israel.

Hebrew commentary; After Balaam's utter failure to curse Israel, he had one last hope. Knowing that sexual morality is a foundation of Hebrew holiness and that God does not tolerate immorality, Balaam councils Balak to entice Israel into debauchery. So intent were the Moabites and their Midianite allies to undo Israel that even the aristocracy sent their daughters to carry out the plan.

However, God sent Pinchas to save the day! Spear in hand he ran them through. And the plague was halted.(24,000 died)

Let me get this straight....

The Israelites write a historical record in which God is their true leader, in which all the other regional tribes are bad, evil, immoral, godless, etc....and in which the Israelites soundly win the day and slaughter their enemies mercilessly in the name of God.

Call me crazy, but I think there may have been some bias here. I for one would like to hear what other sources other than the Israelites have to say about what happened during that time period.

However, God sent Pinchas to save the day! Spear in hand he ran them through. And the plague was halted.(24,000 died)

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What makes you think this is anything more than a myth? How can you possible accept a story like this written by ancient people, but then easily dismiss the larger-than-life stories written by the Egyptians, Greeks, the Aztecs....?

Ronald said:

Nu. 23, 24, & 25, Balak and Balaam attempt to curse Israel.

Hebrew commentary; After Balaam's utter failure to curse Israel, he had one last hope. Knowing that sexual morality is a foundation of Hebrew holiness and that God does not tolerate immorality, Balaam councils Balak to entice Israel into debauchery. So intent were the Moabites and their Midianite allies to undo Israel that even the aristocracy sent their daughters to carry out the plan.

However, God sent Pinchas to save the day! Spear in hand he ran them through. And the plague was halted.(24,000 died)

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Balaam didn`t fail to curse the Israelites, he refused and instead blessed them because god told him to.

The Midianites did not "entice" the Isrealites into debauchery.
Please cite the verses that show Balaam telling Balak to use the Israelites morality against them.

Just because the daughters of Mideas aristocracy were copulating with Isrealite men does not mean the were sent to do so by their fathers.
Please cite the verses that make this claim also.

I know the story of Phineas only too well (assume thats who you refer to when you mention Pinchas).

I am interested in the claims you make so the verses would be welcome.

Even if what you say were true (and my reading of the Bible leads me to believe the Hebrew commentary you quote is untrue) it still does not justify gods rape and genocide of an entire society.
A handful of men work against Israel so all the people of this entire nation must be killed or captured?

Where`s the morality in that?

My reading of the bible still shows me god ordered this because the Midianites worshipped another god and some Israelites bowed down to this god in order to copulate with midianite women.

Its seems a little ironic to me that a plague was halted by 24,000 deaths...doesn't that defeat the purpose a little?

The story of Phineas states that god issued a plague on the people of Israel because they bowed down to the god Baal and copulated with Midianite women.

When Phineas saw an Israelite man copulating with (or about to) a Midianite woman he killed them both with a single thrust of a spear.

This pleased god so he lifted the plague after only 24,00 died from it and all of Phineas` descendents were blessed from that day on.

Nu.31:15 Balaam is the cause! Hero, he is not.
It seems you are of the school that says, "don't believe anything a Hebrew writes."

The commentary is from the Chumash. In my humble opinion, needed to understand fully the NT. But, one must have faith in the message, delivered by the Hebrew messenger.

Umm ronald,

Nu 31:15 reads

And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?

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The reason that the Israelites slew the Midianites(sp), is found in the early verses of Nu 25, the Israelites men were having intercourse with the women of the area, and the women were getting them to bow down to their gods.

Ronald said:

Nu.31:15 Balaam is the cause! Hero, he is not.
It seems you are of the school that says, "don't believe anything a Hebrew writes."

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No, I`m from the school that says "Don`t take anothers opinion/interpretation as truth"

I never claimed Balaam was a hero I merely show that the bible claims he blessed Israel, not cursed it.
He is also not the cause..if there is a cause it is Balak not Balaam.
Balak hired Balaam to curse the Israelites which Balaam then refused to do as per gods orders.

The commentary is from the Chumash. In my humble opinion, needed to understand fully the NT. But, one must have faith in the message, delivered by the Hebrew messenger.

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It`s odd how god would put his inerrant word into a book that needed yet another book and some faith to make it understandable.
You`d think he`d make it a bit clearer than that wouldn`t you?

Anyway, I`d still like to see the verse you alluded to that claim the Midianite leaders intentionally set their daughters out to morally corrupt Israel.

Please show me this scripture Ronald.

Numbers 31:15

"And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?"

I think you`ve got the wrong verse Ronald.

Mister Emu said:

Umm ronald,

Nu 31:15 reads



The reason that the Israelites slew the Midianites(sp), is found in the early verses of Nu 25, the Israelites men were having intercourse with the women of the area, and the women were getting them to bow down to their gods.

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Why did god so fear Baal that he had to kill all his followers?

Didn`t he have faith that his people were strong enough to reject Baal?
Why didn`t they reject Baal?
Of all the people in history you`d think that generation of Israelites would know the truth of god.

Why did god so fear Baal that he had to kill all his followers?

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God did not and does not fear anything, He was mad(and rightfully so) that His creations were not only not worshipping Him, but were worshipping something else, as well as coercing His chosen people to said worship.

Didn`t he have faith that his people were strong enough to reject Baal?

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It had nothing to do with faith, the women were already getting the Israelite men to bow to Baal.

Why didn`t they reject Baal?

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Quite simply, they wanted sex.

Of all the people in history you`d think that generation of Israelites would know the truth of god.

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True, yet throughout history, the Israelite people were easily swayed to the worship of other gods.

Mister Emu said:

God did not and does not fear anything, He was mad(and rightfully so) that His creations were not only not worshipping Him, but were worshipping something else, as well as coercing His chosen people to said worship.

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Why does god not do this today?
There are many religions that worship other gods than he.
Why are they allowed to survive?

It had nothing to do with faith, the women were already getting the Israelite men to bow to Baal.

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But why would they bow to another god even though they of all people had first hand knowledge of the existence of the true god?
In fact the decision wouldn`t even require faith by those Israelites they KNEW god existed.

I`ve been a serious horn dog yet I don`t think my libido would get in the way of my life let alone my afterlife as it did these Israelites.

None of this is an answer to the original OP.

How is gods destruction and genocide of Midia justified morally?

Just because a handful of Midianite leaders (If even that) plotted against Israel doesn`t by my standards justify the destruction of an entire nation.

Just because this nation worshipped the wrong god doesn`t justify the genocide of an entire nation.

Just because this nation led a few Israelite men to immoral action doesn`t justify the destruction and slavery of an entire nation.

What did those Midianite children do to deserve death and slavery?

How does a Christian/Jew justify this horror?

God did not and does not fear anything, He was mad(and rightfully so) that His creations were not only not worshipping Him, but were worshipping something else, as well as coercing His chosen people to said worship.

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Anger doesn't sound like a particularly apt trait for a perfect being.

Quite simply, they wanted sex.

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They could have gotten sex from their own women. There's definitely more to it than that.

True, yet throughout history, the Israelite people were easily swayed to the worship of other gods.

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I'm sure you're familiar with the analogy of Hosea and Gomer. Every time I read it, I'm baffled. I think, "Jeez, Hosea! What does Gomer have to do to get the message accross to you that she doesn't love you anymore? You think you're being all merciful by taking her back, but it doesn't really seem like she wants back, does it? Leave her be and move on!" Do you see what I'm saying? That's like the most unhealthy relationship ever.

I agree with linwood: If the Israelites were that easily swayed, I think the fault is with god, not them.

Okay, take my hand and let's go to, Nu. 31:15 Moses said ro them, "Did you let every female live? Behold!- it was they who caused the children of Israel, by the word of Balaam, to commit a betrayal against HASHEM regarding the matter of Peor; and the plague occured in the assembly of HASHEM. (and it goes on to finish Moses' thought.)31:20" Sorry, children, I have always taught context, context, context.

Ronald said:

Okay, take my hand and let's go to, Nu. 31:15 Moses said ro them, "Did you let every female live? Behold!- it was they who caused the children of Israel, by the word of Balaam, to commit a betrayal against HASHEM regarding the matter of Peor; and the plague occured in the assembly of HASHEM. (and it goes on to finish Moses' thought.)31:20" Sorry, children, I have always taught context, context, context.

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Perhaps the "children" would understand better if you would actually tell them what must remain in context.

If you mean numbers 31:15-31:20 say so.

However you STILL have not given me the verse I asked for.
Nor does this block of scripture show how Balaam caused this betrayal, it was Balak who sought to curse the Israelites through Balaam

Please tell me the scripture that shows Midian conspiracy to make Israelites
do immoral things.

I don`t understand what you mean by "The Matter of Peor".
Wasn`t Peor where Balak told Bashaam to flee before he killed him for refusing to curse the Israelites?
Indeed it was where he built the temple and planned to curse the Israelites but it was never done.
Balaam instead blessed the Israelites 3 times no less and really Po`d Balak .

I`m still not getting what Balaam did wrong nor have you shown me these verses that explain the Midianite plan to make Israel immoral.
Show me these verses please.

Again this is all rather irrelevant because it still does not explain how the wholesale slaughter and rape of innocent children can be morally justified regardless of Midian guilt or innocence.

These are the questions I`m asking...

1) What treachery did Balaam ultimately work against Israel?
2) What scripture says Midia contrived to cause the Israelites to be immoral?
3) How is the wholesale killing and slavery of the children of Midia justified ?


Can you answer these?

linwood said:

These are the questions I`m asking...

1) What treachery did Balaam ultimately work against Israel?
2) What scripture says Midia contrived to cause the Israelites to be immoral?
3) How is the wholesale killing and slavery of the children of Midia justified ?


Can you answer these?

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1) Nu. 31:16 councel of Balaam
2) Nu.25:16-17 Smite them (Conspiricy that they conspired against you in the matter of Peor.)
3) Not my business to justify the Acts of Hashem.
I could refer you to the Chumash, the Rabbi's make it their business to look for meaning in all the Word of God. But you have made it clear you want only scripture.
These are my answers.

3) Not my business to justify the Acts of Hashem.

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I thought it was an act done by the Israelites, who claim God told them to do it.

Mr_Spinkles said:

I thought it was an act done by the Israelites, who claim God told them to do it.

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I would need to prove there was a Moses, then prove there was an Israel, then prove they crossed the Red Sea, then prove they slew the Midianites, then prove there is a God who they claim chose them to reveal God to the nations. If I could do all of this there would be no need for God, so I respectfully decline. God has my permission to be Himself. LOL

Ronald said:

1) Nu. 31:16 councel of Balaam

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Moses was misled by god about Balaams council and if you read the story you know that.

Read all of Numbers 22 to see this story unfold.

Balaam absolutely refused to meet with Balak because god told him not to then they sent for him again and god specifically told him to go "and wait for his word".

When Balaam went with Balaks messengers god got mad at him, after he specifically told him to go.
He sent an angel to kill Balaam for going but Balaams donkey saved his life

Balaam did EXACTLY everything god told him even when his orders directly contradicted themselves.

Balaam was a good Jew trying to do the right thing stuck between a despicable king and a jealous confusing god.

2) Nu.25:16-17 Smite them (Conspiricy that they conspired against you in the matter of Peor.)

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Yes this is morality for you...god tells Balaam to go to Balak(at Peor) and then accuses him (To Moses) of conspiring against the Israelites for being there even though he still refused to curse the Israelites as Balak angrily demanded and blessed them instead (as god instructed him to do)

3) Not my business to justify the Acts of Hashem.

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I can understand that, the acts of this god are too confusing to even follow let alone justify.

I could refer you to the Chumash, the Rabbi's make it their business to look for meaning in all the Word of God. But you have made it clear you want only scripture.
These are my answers.

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I can find "meaning" in the word of god myself thanks.

So in conclusion, if you read the entire story the unethical behaviour of god does not lie in the killing of innocents alone.
God himself contrived this false conspiracy against the Israelites so that Moses would feel justified in destroying them.

The destruction of Midia was not merely gods answer to a problem it was gods answer to a problem he intentionally created so he could destroy Midia.

This is essentially the same story of Moses being sent to petition the Pharaoh for the release of the Israelites.

God tells his messenger to do something then puts obstacles in his path and makes it virtually impossible for him to succeed.

Both stories seem to have no other purpose than enabling god to kill innocents.

You're not going to find the answer in Numbers. When you read a book and question why something had happened, usually, you have to turn back the pages to find out. The answer to the question is Gen 15:16. For real.

I think you all have ignored the brutality of the surrounding religions during this time period. It was extremely brutal. Consider the Goddess Anath, pictured as killing humans by the thousands and wading knee deep in their blood. She cut off heads and hands and wore them as ornaments. The Baal-epic says that her liver was swollen with laughter and her joy was great. Also the other religions of this region sacrificed their own babies. Funerary jars have been found with the bodies of children distored by suffication as they struggled for life after being buried alive to please their own gods. These religions appealed to bestial and material in human nature. When Israel came into the land God told them to completely destroy them "that they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; for this would be a sin unto you Lord God." Remember that the Hebrew nation was where the Messiah was to appear, thus the salvation of mankind was at stake. Also because God is God, he has the right to render judgement upon evil when so ever he chooses at any time. You're trying to view those events in the time of the present. Remember God views eternity. So would killing these people with their children in the viewpoint of eternity be different? Very much so. Would it not of been infinately worse had these people grown very large and more and more people adopted the same sick pagan practices? Also no one has the right to criticize God's moral activity unless you can establish and defend some geniune moral standard apart from God.

Also when you ask why God of the bible did such and such, I think its important to remember that God has enemies. Consider the thousands of demon spirits roaming the earth, the devil, and those born of the seed of satan. They all are mentioned in the bible as well. Doesn't the bible teach that there is an invisible spiritual realm that is unprovable?