Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
Sounds like the Hebrew Bible creation story to me.
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Genesis 1:1
- Thread starter Flat Earth Kyle
- Start date
Sounds like the Hebrew Bible creation story to me.
Copernicus
Industrial Strength Linguist
Yaddoe, I don't think that your attempt to analyze Genesis 1:1 with a dictionary is going to work here. It is not just that the original text was written in Hebrew. Words are ambiguous in all languages. It is that you cannot understand the language independently of the context in which it was written. Genesis was the Hebrew Bible's origin myth, and it was really very similar to other origin myths that were popular in the region at the time. It was a fairly straightforward just-so story that shared some elements of myths from other Semitic religions. It just says that God created the heavens and the Earth as people perceived them at the time. The Earth was thought to be flat and bounded by water, and the heavens were thought of as a dome or "firmament" above the land. The sun, moon, planets, and stars moved through the firmament. God made all of these elements come into being by his inherent ability and power to create stuff.
The Bible is not a history book? Maybe you need to reconsider your view. With regards to the question on Gen. 1:1. I think we need to understand the verse simply and plainly.
I'm laughing because I find your approach laughable and worthy or derision.
It is simply symbolic of the distinction between Matter and Spirit. The nature of God is pure Spirit, and therefore it is unchanging. Upon the creation of the cosmos, Spirit had to be restricted. This is the cause of duality. Spirit was separated by Matter, almost like breaking into pieces. Hollow shells filled with Spirit.
This is simply my own interpretation, for the record.
This is simply my own interpretation, for the record.
Last edited by a moderator:
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
I agree with you when it comes to I'm not going to find my answer in a dictionary of whatever language. I have my own belief about where answers can be found, however I greatly disagree with you when it comes to the creation story in the Hebrew Bible being a myth.
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
Why do you find it so laughable? You are very vague.
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
I don't understand what you are saying one bit.
You need to be more specific and clarify what you mean.
"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."
So, up until this point, all that existed was the spiritual realm, you could call it. There is just God and pure Spirit fills it. So, it is a realm we probably cannot fully wrap our heads around right now. But, when the Creator made the physical universe, either creating the Big Bang or whatever happened before, the Creator made duality. Now there is the Spiritual (heaven) and the material (earth). Genesis 1:1 is the start of the universe, what science says is the big bang (and I have no quarrel with that).
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
So you believe God created the physical realm out of nothing?
How do you know all that existed was the spiritual realm?
How do you know the physical realm didn't already exist and God just organized it, kind of like making a cake?
Elokim has always been regarded in the Jewish tradition as a plural word referring to the singular G-d. However, it can also be used to describe judges (human judges), and also applied to multiple pagan gods as well. The singular of Elokim is technically "El". There are a number of explanations on this matter, and if you want a solid explanation you should look at the Rabbinic interpretations, since the entire oral tradition determining where to put what vowels under the letters so you know how to read the word in the first place comes from Rabbinic oral tradition - as you will see very clearly in the text. Without some kind of tradition, you could theoretically read the Torah in many many different ways that would make no sense at all, contextually speaking. So, I'll show you Rashi.
I don't know how well you know Hebrew, but here is the verse in Hebrew:
א. בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱ־לֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ:
1. In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
The first word of the Torah is "בְּרֵאשִׁית" - bereishis (or berei**** depending on how you want to read it), which means "In the beginning", or alternatively you could translate it just as correct to be "In the beginning of". Both would make sense grammaticaly. Now, Rashi brings down these explanations of the simple meaning of the verse. You do need to know some Hebrew to understand it but I'll explain it in a little. This is the first explanation:
In the beginning: Said Rabbi Isaac: It was not necessary to begin the Torah except from “This month is to you,” (Exod. 12:2) which is the first commandment that the Israelites were commanded, (for the main purpose of the Torah is its commandments, and although several commandments are found in Genesis, e.g., circumcision and the prohibition of eating the thigh sinew, they could have been included together with the other commandments). Now for what reason did He commence with “In the beginning?” Because of [the verse] “The strength of His works He related to His people, to give them the inheritance of the nations” (Ps. 111:6). For if the nations of the world should say to Israel, “You are robbers, for you conquered by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan],” they will reply, "The entire earth belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it (this we learn from the story of the Creation) and gave it to whomever He deemed proper When He wished, He gave it to them, and when He wished, He took it away from them and gave it to us.
That is the first explanation on the verse Rashi brings down. The sources Rashi brings down are all biblical/Talmudic (I.e. Rabbi Isaac was a sage of the Talmud) Now, as you can see, the Torah is not considered primarily a history book. But it is to demonstrate more over that G-d created the world and can do whatever he wants with it. Which is why it starts off with this verse - since really the purpose of the Torah in Judaism is regarded primarily as a book of law and to teach us the way of G-d. The way we go about following G-d, is through his law. However, a bit of a prelude explaining that this is G-d's world and He created it and rules it, is required to understand the Torah as a primarily a book of law. Which is why the verse starts in this manner.
Another Rashi on this verse clarifies the meaning of the word "bereishis" more clearly. However, some knowledge of Hebrew is required to know this. So, I will summarize it in a little.
In the beginning of God’s creation of: Heb. בְּרֵאשִית בָּרָא. This verse calls for a midrashic interpretation [because according to its simple interpretation, the vowelization of the word בָּרָא, should be different, as Rashi explains further]. It teaches us that the sequence of the Creation as written is impossible, as is written immediately below] as our Rabbis stated (Letters of R. Akiva , letter “beth” ; Gen. Rabbah 1:6; Lev. Rabbah 36:4): [God created the world] for the sake of the Torah, which is called (Prov. 8:22): “the beginning of His way,” and for the sake of Israel, who are called (Jer. 2:3) “the first of His grain.” But if you wish to explain it according to its simple meaning, explain it thus: “At the beginning of the creation of heaven and earth, the earth was astonishing with emptiness, and darkness…and God said, ‘Let there be light.’” But Scripture did not come to teach the sequence of the Creation, to say that these came first, for if it came to teach this, it should have written:“At first (בָּרִאשׁוֹנָה
He created the heavens and the earth,” for there is no רֵאשִׁית in Scripture that is not connected to the following word, [i.e., in the construct state] like (ibid. 27:1):“In the beginning of (בְּרֵאשִית the reign of Jehoiakim” ; (below 10:10)“the beginning of (רֵאשִׁית his reign” ; (Deut. 18:4)“the first (רֵאשִׁית of your corn.” Here too, you say בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אלֹהִים, like בְּרֵאשִׁית בְּרֹא, in the beginning of creating. And similar to this is,“At the beginning of the Lord’s speaking (דִּבֶּר to Hosea,” (Hos. 1:2), i.e., at the beginning of the speaking (דִּבּוּרוֹ of the Holy One, Blessed be He, to Hosea, “the Lord said to Hosea, etc.” Now if you say that it came to teach that these (i.e., heaven and earth) were created first, and that its meaning is: In the beginning of all, He created these-and that there are elliptical verses that omit one word, like (Job 3:9): “For [He] did not shut the doors of my [mother’s] womb,” and it does not explain who it was who shut [the womb]; and like (Isa. 8:4): “he will carry off the wealth of Damascus,” and it does not explain who will carry it off; and like (Amos 6:12): “or will one plow with cattle,” and it does not explain: “if a man will plow with cattle” ; and like (Isa. 46: 10): “telling the end from the beginning,” and it does not explain that [it means] telling the end of a matter from the beginning of a matter-if so, [if you say that Scripture indicates the order of creation] be astounded at yourself, for the water preceded, as it is written: “and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the water,” and Scripture did not yet disclose when the creation of water took place! From this you learn that the water preceded the earth. Moreover, the heavens were created from fire and water. Perforce, you must admit that Scripture did not teach us anything about the sequence of the earlier and the later [acts of creation].
In short, the grammatical usage of the word Bereishis is unusual and thus prompts us to need a more "indepth" look into this word since it can be translated as "In the beginning" or "in the beginning of". Since the root word of Bereishis(בְּרֵאשִׁית is "reishis" ראשית, which means just simply "beginning" or "first", etc. The letter beis is a prefix. Therefor, since we have never seen the word "b'reishis" used in the context it is in, it is necessary to ask the question "Why is it written this way?" For it could have written it many other ways. A lot can be said about all of these commentaries. I'm pretty tired as it is 2:16 a.m. right now and I can't do much critical thinking at this hour. So, I'm going to cut the explanation short and let you all figure it out more and see what you think. But, I'll leave you with a few more very quick points which I will explain later upon asking to the best of my knowledge. To clarifiy though, Rashi does indeed hold that the order of creation mentioned in the Torah is correct and you can learn it out that way. Rashi is not saying that the order of creation in the Torah is wrong. He's asking questions.
And here's the last Rashi. Notice the verse says "G-d" instead of "L-rd" or "Eternal". The difference in translation in this case is that Elokim is translated into English as G-d specifically in our case in order to keep the reader less confused. Generally the rule of thumb is "Elokim" implies a measure of judgement or severity being used. Which is a very logical deduction to make in most cases since Elokim also means judges as well as G-d. Or for that matter, gods.
God’s creation of the heavens and the earth: But it does not say “of the Lord’s creation of” (i.e., it should say “of the Lord God’s creation of” as below 2:4 “on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven” for in the beginning it was His intention to create it with the Divine Standard of Justice, but he perceived that the world would not endure; so He preceded it with the Divine Standard of Mercy, allying it with the Divine Standard of Justice, and that is the reason it is written:“on the day the Lord God made earth and heaven.”
This interpretation Rashi just explained the verse with is from the Midrash, which is an oral tradition passed down from prior generations usually either from Mt. Sinai or one of the Patriarchs.
I don't know how well you know Hebrew, but here is the verse in Hebrew:
א. בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱ־לֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ:
1. In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
The first word of the Torah is "בְּרֵאשִׁית" - bereishis (or berei**** depending on how you want to read it), which means "In the beginning", or alternatively you could translate it just as correct to be "In the beginning of". Both would make sense grammaticaly. Now, Rashi brings down these explanations of the simple meaning of the verse. You do need to know some Hebrew to understand it but I'll explain it in a little. This is the first explanation:
In the beginning: Said Rabbi Isaac: It was not necessary to begin the Torah except from “This month is to you,” (Exod. 12:2) which is the first commandment that the Israelites were commanded, (for the main purpose of the Torah is its commandments, and although several commandments are found in Genesis, e.g., circumcision and the prohibition of eating the thigh sinew, they could have been included together with the other commandments). Now for what reason did He commence with “In the beginning?” Because of [the verse] “The strength of His works He related to His people, to give them the inheritance of the nations” (Ps. 111:6). For if the nations of the world should say to Israel, “You are robbers, for you conquered by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan],” they will reply, "The entire earth belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it (this we learn from the story of the Creation) and gave it to whomever He deemed proper When He wished, He gave it to them, and when He wished, He took it away from them and gave it to us.
That is the first explanation on the verse Rashi brings down. The sources Rashi brings down are all biblical/Talmudic (I.e. Rabbi Isaac was a sage of the Talmud) Now, as you can see, the Torah is not considered primarily a history book. But it is to demonstrate more over that G-d created the world and can do whatever he wants with it. Which is why it starts off with this verse - since really the purpose of the Torah in Judaism is regarded primarily as a book of law and to teach us the way of G-d. The way we go about following G-d, is through his law. However, a bit of a prelude explaining that this is G-d's world and He created it and rules it, is required to understand the Torah as a primarily a book of law. Which is why the verse starts in this manner.
Another Rashi on this verse clarifies the meaning of the word "bereishis" more clearly. However, some knowledge of Hebrew is required to know this. So, I will summarize it in a little.
In the beginning of God’s creation of: Heb. בְּרֵאשִית בָּרָא. This verse calls for a midrashic interpretation [because according to its simple interpretation, the vowelization of the word בָּרָא, should be different, as Rashi explains further]. It teaches us that the sequence of the Creation as written is impossible, as is written immediately below] as our Rabbis stated (Letters of R. Akiva , letter “beth” ; Gen. Rabbah 1:6; Lev. Rabbah 36:4): [God created the world] for the sake of the Torah, which is called (Prov. 8:22): “the beginning of His way,” and for the sake of Israel, who are called (Jer. 2:3) “the first of His grain.” But if you wish to explain it according to its simple meaning, explain it thus: “At the beginning of the creation of heaven and earth, the earth was astonishing with emptiness, and darkness…and God said, ‘Let there be light.’” But Scripture did not come to teach the sequence of the Creation, to say that these came first, for if it came to teach this, it should have written:“At first (בָּרִאשׁוֹנָה
He created the heavens and the earth,” for there is no רֵאשִׁית in Scripture that is not connected to the following word, [i.e., in the construct state] like (ibid. 27:1):“In the beginning of (בְּרֵאשִית the reign of Jehoiakim” ; (below 10:10)“the beginning of (רֵאשִׁית his reign” ; (Deut. 18:4)“the first (רֵאשִׁית of your corn.” Here too, you say בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אלֹהִים, like בְּרֵאשִׁית בְּרֹא, in the beginning of creating. And similar to this is,“At the beginning of the Lord’s speaking (דִּבֶּר to Hosea,” (Hos. 1:2), i.e., at the beginning of the speaking (דִּבּוּרוֹ of the Holy One, Blessed be He, to Hosea, “the Lord said to Hosea, etc.” Now if you say that it came to teach that these (i.e., heaven and earth) were created first, and that its meaning is: In the beginning of all, He created these-and that there are elliptical verses that omit one word, like (Job 3:9): “For [He] did not shut the doors of my [mother’s] womb,” and it does not explain who it was who shut [the womb]; and like (Isa. 8:4): “he will carry off the wealth of Damascus,” and it does not explain who will carry it off; and like (Amos 6:12): “or will one plow with cattle,” and it does not explain: “if a man will plow with cattle” ; and like (Isa. 46: 10): “telling the end from the beginning,” and it does not explain that [it means] telling the end of a matter from the beginning of a matter-if so, [if you say that Scripture indicates the order of creation] be astounded at yourself, for the water preceded, as it is written: “and the spirit of God hovered over the face of the water,” and Scripture did not yet disclose when the creation of water took place! From this you learn that the water preceded the earth. Moreover, the heavens were created from fire and water. Perforce, you must admit that Scripture did not teach us anything about the sequence of the earlier and the later [acts of creation].In short, the grammatical usage of the word Bereishis is unusual and thus prompts us to need a more "indepth" look into this word since it can be translated as "In the beginning" or "in the beginning of". Since the root word of Bereishis(בְּרֵאשִׁית
is "reishis" ראשית, which means just simply "beginning" or "first", etc. The letter beis is a prefix. Therefor, since we have never seen the word "b'reishis" used in the context it is in, it is necessary to ask the question "Why is it written this way?" For it could have written it many other ways. A lot can be said about all of these commentaries. I'm pretty tired as it is 2:16 a.m. right now and I can't do much critical thinking at this hour. So, I'm going to cut the explanation short and let you all figure it out more and see what you think. But, I'll leave you with a few more very quick points which I will explain later upon asking to the best of my knowledge. To clarifiy though, Rashi does indeed hold that the order of creation mentioned in the Torah is correct and you can learn it out that way. Rashi is not saying that the order of creation in the Torah is wrong. He's asking questions.And here's the last Rashi. Notice the verse says "G-d" instead of "L-rd" or "Eternal". The difference in translation in this case is that Elokim is translated into English as G-d specifically in our case in order to keep the reader less confused. Generally the rule of thumb is "Elokim" implies a measure of judgement or severity being used. Which is a very logical deduction to make in most cases since Elokim also means judges as well as G-d. Or for that matter, gods.
God’s creation of the heavens and the earth: But it does not say “of the Lord’s creation of” (i.e., it should say “of the Lord God’s creation of” as below 2:4 “on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven”
for in the beginning it was His intention to create it with the Divine Standard of Justice, but he perceived that the world would not endure; so He preceded it with the Divine Standard of Mercy, allying it with the Divine Standard of Justice, and that is the reason it is written:“on the day the Lord God made earth and heaven.”This interpretation Rashi just explained the verse with is from the Midrash, which is an oral tradition passed down from prior generations usually either from Mt. Sinai or one of the Patriarchs.
Also, here's a link. So have fun exploring around. Just click "show rashi" at the top to get the stuff. Also it's a good translation. I'll explain it more tomorrow though as to what the fine points are if you all are still interested so that way you can understand what he's also not saying.
Genesis - Chapter 1 (Parshah Berei****) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
Genesis - Chapter 1 (Parshah Berei****) - Tanakh Online - Torah - Bible
Flat Earth Kyle
Well-Known Member
Wow, that is a whole lot of stuff, however I didn't see where it answered my question about which definitions were the correct definitions and how we can know that. Maybe you could highlight that part for me because I didn't see it.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
It was good til you put yourself into it.
Creation is not a myth....here you are.
That perception of heaven and earth was immature when the text was formed...
doesn't mean it's a myth.
shawn001
Well-Known Member
What creation story is it below?
Initial state of the earth - enveloped in darkness
First development- Light created.
Next development-Firmament created
Next development-Dry land created.
Next development-Sun, moon, stars created.
Next development-Creation of men and women.
Next development-Gods rest and celebrate.
Its the sumerian creation story.
Comparing two creation stories: from
Genesis and Babylonian pagan sources
Comparing the Genesis and Babylonian stories of creation
The Creator made the physical world by restricting the flow of Spirit. This is the same as the singularity that sparked the big bang, but I admit that I, nor anyone else, fully understands what happened there. It couldn't exist because the physical world is only an illusion caused by being restricted from receiving the full light.
Last edited by a moderator:
outhouse
Atheistically
Elokim has always been regarded in the Jewish tradition as a plural word referring to the singular G-d. However, it can also be used to describe judges (human judges), and also applied to multiple pagan gods as well. The singular of Elokim is technically "El". There are a number of explanations on this matter, and if you want a solid explanation you should look at the Rabbinic interpretations, since the entire oral tradition determining where to put what vowels under the letters so you know how to read the word in the first place comes from Rabbinic oral tradition - as you will see very clearly in the text. Without some kind of tradition, you could theoretically read the Torah in many many different ways that would make no sense at all, contextually speaking. So, I'll show you Rashi.
I don't know how well you know Hebrew, but here is the verse in Hebrew:
א. בְּרֵאשִׁית בָּרָא אֱ־לֹהִים אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ:
1. In the beginning of God's creation of the heavens and the earth.
The first word of the Torah is "בְּרֵאשִׁית" - bereishis (or berei**** depending on how you want to read it), which means "In the beginning", or alternatively you could translate it just as correct to be "In the beginning of". Both would make sense grammaticaly. Now, Rashi brings down these explanations of the simple meaning of the verse. You do need to know some Hebrew to understand it but I'll explain it in a little. This is the first explanation:
In the beginning: Said Rabbi Isaac: It was not necessary to begin the Torah except from This month is to you, (Exod. 12:2) which is the first commandment that the Israelites were commanded, (for the main purpose of the Torah is its commandments, and although several commandments are found in Genesis, e.g., circumcision and the prohibition of eating the thigh sinew, they could have been included together with the other commandments). Now for what reason did He commence with In the beginning? Because of [the verse] The strength of His works He related to His people, to give them the inheritance of the nations (Ps. 111:6). For if the nations of the world should say to Israel, You are robbers, for you conquered by force the lands of the seven nations [of Canaan], they will reply, "The entire earth belongs to the Holy One, blessed be He; He created it (this we learn from the story of the Creation) and gave it to whomever He deemed proper When He wished, He gave it to them, and when He wished, He took it away from them and gave it to us.
That is the first explanation on the verse Rashi brings down. The sources Rashi brings down are all biblical/Talmudic (I.e. Rabbi Isaac was a sage of the Talmud) Now, as you can see, the Torah is not considered primarily a history book. But it is to demonstrate more over that G-d created the world and can do whatever he wants with it. Which is why it starts off with this verse - since really the purpose of the Torah in Judaism is regarded primarily as a book of law and to teach us the way of G-d. The way we go about following G-d, is through his law. However, a bit of a prelude explaining that this is G-d's world and He created it and rules it, is required to understand the Torah as a primarily a book of law. Which is why the verse starts in this manner.
Another Rashi on this verse clarifies the meaning of the word "bereishis" more clearly. However, some knowledge of Hebrew is required to know this. So, I will summarize it in a little.
In the beginning of Gods creation of: Heb. בְּרֵאשִית בָּרָא. This verse calls for a midrashic interpretation [because according to its simple interpretation, the vowelization of the word בָּרָא, should be different, as Rashi explains further]. It teaches us that the sequence of the Creation as written is impossible, as is written immediately below] as our Rabbis stated (Letters of R. Akiva , letter beth ; Gen. Rabbah 1:6; Lev. Rabbah 36:4): [God created the world] for the sake of the Torah, which is called (Prov. 8:22): the beginning of His way, and for the sake of Israel, who are called (Jer. 2:3) the first of His grain. But if you wish to explain it according to its simple meaning, explain it thus: At the beginning of the creation of heaven and earth, the earth was astonishing with emptiness, and darkness and God said, Let there be light. But Scripture did not come to teach the sequence of the Creation, to say that these came first, for if it came to teach this, it should have written:At first (בָּרִאשׁוֹנָה
In short, the grammatical usage of the word Bereishis is unusual and thus prompts us to need a more "indepth" look into this word since it can be translated as "In the beginning" or "in the beginning of". Since the root word of Bereishis(בְּרֵאשִׁית
And here's the last Rashi. Notice the verse says "G-d" instead of "L-rd" or "Eternal". The difference in translation in this case is that Elokim is translated into English as G-d specifically in our case in order to keep the reader less confused. Generally the rule of thumb is "Elokim" implies a measure of judgement or severity being used. Which is a very logical deduction to make in most cases since Elokim also means judges as well as G-d. Or for that matter, gods.
Gods creation of the heavens and the earth: But it does not say of the Lords creation of (i.e., it should say of the Lord Gods creation of as below 2:4 on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven) for in the beginning it was His intention to create it with the Divine Standard of Justice, but he perceived that the world would not endure; so He preceded it with the Divine Standard of Mercy, allying it with the Divine Standard of Justice, and that is the reason it is written:on the day the Lord God made earth and heaven.
This interpretation Rashi just explained the verse with is from the Midrash, which is an oral tradition passed down from prior generations usually either from Mt. Sinai or one of the Patriarchs.
false and you completely ignore the polytheistic past of ancient hebrews.
El was his own father deity that originated before ancient hebrews existed. people who migrated to Israel in the north used El as their primary deity, A Mesopotamian deity
outhouse
Atheistically
you have already admitted your completely ignorant to how Genesis was created, so you really dont have a clue if its a myth or not.
But it is a myth despite your lack of education on the subject.
It is a myth outlawed from public schools, while evolution is taught worldwide as higher education.
