Question to Jews about Prophet Muhammad(pbuh)

Caladan said:

No. he would simply call himself Jewish. let me ask you the same question, would a Muslim call himself Jewish for surrendering to the will of God?
in other words, what's the point of these word plays?


In great deal, that seems to be entirely up to personal interpretation.




Personally, I don't find it interesting at all, it is pretty revisionistic.


I'm sorry but what does WWII has to do with this thread? there were also Muslims serving in Nazi divisions, and cooperation between the mufti of Jerusalem and Hitler. furthermore, if you are so interested in the topic of humanitarian aid, Israel has a very good record of sending aid even to Muslim populations in times of crisis, including to Muslims which have historically participated in the extermination of Jews during WWII (see Bosnia).


Many Jews share commonalities with Muslims. unfortunately here on the web (and even more unfortunate in the real world) many Muslims have made many Jewish members very sceptical about this idea. I know that from my part, I have been accused of being a devil worshipper, enemy of God, part of a global evil conspiracy, etc. etc. all because many Muslim people who join on line forums are completely indocrinated. personally I don't see any resemblance between what they call religion and what I call religion. they flood forums with the boring threads about the so called scientific miracles in the Qur'an, and their major goal for posting is proclaiming to the world how grand and amazing their religion is.
in short, many Muslim members themselves are making me more prone to have prejudices about Islam and Muslims.
there was a time that I read the Qur'an, Muslim literature, and Muslim history in order to educate myself and in order to have a better dialogue with Muslims, today I tend to see the chance for a fruitful dialogue small. I find much more constructive dialogue and common education partners with members who are Christian, as we actually engage in discussion about Jewish and Christian scripture, and about early history without any of us trying to push his religion down the other guy's throat, and in fact without producing any of the useless postings about scientific miracles in scriptures, why only one group is correct, without condemning each other, and without provoking each other.

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I think that depends because what does the word ''Jew'' mean and the word ''Jew'' has a religion and nationality sticker on it so it would be confusing.

I was actually referring the question to the ''jews'' like what do you (personally) or the majority think the difference is about Non-Jews and Jews.

Sorry to hear it i found it interesting though just wanted to share something.

Like i mentioned it had nothing to do with the Subject i hope you saw that, now i am from Morocco myself and we opened our borders and send troops to save the jews we also have a great history in our country with jewish berbers and arabs, i think we had around 1million jews in 1945 till 1948/49 when Israel was created i am pretty sure Turkey had something about the same numbers and other countries.
Bosnia was fighting on two fronts and yes there was Extremism there, but lets not go off-topic because i can simply copy and paste the history of the Isreal-state what also has nothing to do with the subject.


Yes i do agree on that i also find these on the forums and feel disgusted by some who behave like that i also prefer a intellectual debate about those ''Miracles'', ''Simalirties'' instead of copy/pasting articles what i think the Majority does.
You should just Ignore those people and search for the better speakers its not like a uneducated person gets much attention at all.

Caladan said:

Many Jews share commonalities with Muslims. unfortunately here on the web (and even more unfortunate in the real world) many Muslims have made many Jewish members very sceptical about this idea. I know that from my part, I have been accused of being a devil worshipper, enemy of God, part of a global evil conspiracy, etc. etc. all because many Muslim people who join on line forums are completely indocrinated. personally I don't see any resemblance between what they call religion and what I call religion. they flood forums with the boring threads about the so called scientific miracles in the Qur'an, and their major goal for posting is proclaiming to the world how grand and amazing their religion is.
in short, many Muslim members themselves are making me more prone to have prejudices about Islam and Muslims.
there was a time that I read the Qur'an, Muslim literature, and Muslim history in order to educate myself and in order to have a better dialogue with Muslims, today I tend to see the chance for a fruitful dialogue small. I find much more constructive dialogue and common education partners with members who are Christian, as we actually engage in discussion about Jewish and Christian scripture, and about early history without any of us trying to push his religion down the other guy's throat, and in fact without producing any of the useless postings about scientific miracles in scriptures, why only one group is correct, without condemning each other, and without provoking each other.

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It is quite sad to see that you are accusing the muslims of doing something you are guilty of yourself (at least from the above post of yours in this thread). I sincerely started this thread with the sole intention of learning something from the Jews and talking about something we both have in common and without any confrontations (all my post in this thread will testify to that). However, you seem to be closing that door yourself. And the labels you are using to stereotype all the muslims who join online forums is not nice or factual at all. Please note that I do not go around starting threads about attacking people of other faith, however, when I see my religion/prophet being falsely accused of something or attacked without any basis, I have every right to defend it with facts and evidences. And in that process if I have to bring out the facts regarding the accuser or their religion, I can't help it.

Also, I can understand that some people do not like certain kind of posts about religion - that is a subjective matter though. However, as long as it is not hurting someone else, I do not see any problem with it. There's nothing wrong in sharing with the world if someone thinks they have something amazing. That's what the social media is all about. I am neither going door to door shoving my belief down someone else's throat nor am I asking people to convert to my faith. It is a debate forum and hence I have every right to share something I think is amazing and then debate with fellow RF'ers regarding it's amazingness. I am sorry if it seems boring to you - to many others it may not be. And remember, you have the choice to not visit the threads that you don't find interesting.

Peace to you.

If you don't know what I am talking about, I can't really help you.
suffice to say that I have other alternatives for discussion than listening repeatedly to how I killed the prophets, that I am the enemy of God, and that Islam is the grandest, most amazing thing in the world since Elvis, and if I don't believe that I am immoral and I am headed to hell.
you know, there are hundreds of active members here with various belief systems, most of them offer me a better chance for a dialogue than that.

loverOfTruth said:

This thread is not about debates or arguments but rather information for myself.

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loverOfTruth said:

It is a debate forum and hence I have every right to share something I think is amazing and then debate with fellow RF'ers regarding it's amazingness.

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Maybe were you more honest about you intentions to begin with ...

loverOfTruth said:

I would like to know ... if you believe that Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was a messenger of the same God just like Moses(pbuh) was.

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I do not believe in revelation. In this respect, I view Muhammad in much the same way as I view Joseph Smith.

I seriously doubt the historical accuracy of the Moses narratives.

I have a question, it has been touched a bit by Levite in the first page but it doesn't answer my question.

For the Jews to believe that Jesus was not sent to them, nor Muhammed, the Torah should state that the Law of Moses is the final Law of God to the children of Israel and that it should say who the final messenger is.

In Islamic belief, because Muhammed is the last messenger, it states clearly that who his audience is, that he is the last messenger, and that the revelation given to him is the last one. The Qur'an clearly states all those points.

From an Islamic perspective regarding my question, the answer is that the Jewish text does not say (it shouldn't say) who the final messenger is, or that the Laws of Moses are the final laws of God to the Children of Israel. But I would like to know what the Torah says and thus, the Jewish view.

Levite mentioned that Zachariah might be the last Prophet. He was a Prophet, and also the father of the Prophet known as Yahya in Islam, who's name is translated into John in English. After John, came Jesus the son of Mary belonging to the family of Imran. More on this can be found in chapter 3 starting at verse 34. Zachariah, is related to Jesus, but i don't have enough knowledge to say precisely in what way, he might be the uncle of Mary, but I'm not sure on that.

If someone doesn't mind answering and quoting relevant verses I'd appreciate that. And i don't want to debate this, if the answer is clear and whether confirms my Islamic view or not, I won't take this further, but if the answer isn't clear enough then I will ask more for a better understanding.

eselam said:

For the Jews to believe that Jesus was not sent to them, nor Muhammed, the Torah should state that the Law of Moses is the final Law of God to the children of Israel and that it should say who the final messenger is.

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Who made up that rule?

Jayhawker Soule said:

Who made up that rule?

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From my understanding the Jews did when they rejected Jesus who was sent to them with a scripture and knowledge of the Laws of Moses which confirmed the Laws of Moses and contained Laws which made permissible some things which they had previously been forbidden.

Of course, that is from an Islamic perspective, but since you mentioned it, what is the Jewish perspective? Didn't the Jews accept David as a Prophet after Moses and the scripture which he was given, the Psalms?

Why didn't the same happen with Jesus? The Torah does not state (I believe it doesn't) that so and so should be accepted and so and so should not, Jesus was born to a Jewish mother, both in faith and nationality.

If you don't mind explaining that I'd appreciate it.

eselam said:

If you don't mind explaining that I'd appreciate it.

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eselam, why the overwhelming majority of Jews do not accept Christianity is a reasonably complex and completely different topic than that of this thread. What is relevant to this thread is the following: there is absolutely nothing in what the Torah says or does not say that confirms Muhammed as a Prophet. When you speak of what the "Torah should state" you are making a completely baseless deduction.

Jayhawker Soule said:

eselam, why the overwhelming majority of Jews do not accept Christianity is a reasonably complex and completely different topic than that of this thread.

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Yes, you are right, unfortunately I realized after I posted my question that the thread is not about why the Jews denied Jesus. But then a little after, I though, in order to get to Muhammed, we must first go through Jesus.

From my perspective this is where something that wasn't supposed to happen, happened. And as a result I am asking if what the Jews did was based on the teachings of their scripture, which would explain the rejection of Jesus and then latter Muhammed, if the Torah teaches that no Prophet nor Scripture will come after Moses and the Torah.

What is relevant to this thread is the following: there is absolutely nothing in what the Torah says or does not say that confirms Muhammed as a Prophet. When you speak of what the "Torah should state" you are making a completely baseless deduction.

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My question had/has a basis though. Like i said, it is based on the fact that the Jews rejected Jesus who came after Moses with a new Scripture, but accepted David who also came after Moses and with a new Scripture.

And the 'should' is part of my belief, I specifically stated that in brackets both times that i mentioned that word.

Does that clarify my question?

Turns out that David is not a prophet for jews and that the psalms or Tehillim are what the name implies. They are songs to praise god and not some prophetic literature.


David was the third king of the united Kingdom of Israel and Judah.

Flankerl said:

Turns out that David is not a prophet for jews and that the psalms or Tehillim are what the name implies. They are songs to praise god and not some prophetic literature.

David was the third king of the united Kingdom of Israel and Judah.

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Yes he was given Kingship, so too was his son Solomon. Doesn't Judaism teach of them being Prophets?

In Islam they are both Prophets. David was given immense physical strength while Solomon was given wisdom, even at young age he surpassed his father in wisdom/judgement.

eselam said:

For the Jews to believe that Jesus was not sent to them, nor Muhammed, the Torah should state that the Law of Moses is the final Law of God to the children of Israel and that it should say who the final messenger is.

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eselam said:

And the 'should' is part of my belief, I specifically stated that in brackets both times that i mentioned that word.

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eselam, why not consider starting a new thread in the appropriate forum?

No both were "just" Kings and not Prophets.

Samson was the one given immense, physical strength.
He was neither prophet nor king.


David had, what one may call, prowess.

loverOfTruth said:

Also, I can understand that some people do not like certain kind of posts about religion - that is a subjective matter though. However, as long as it is not hurting someone else, I do not see any problem with it. There's nothing wrong in sharing with the world if someone thinks they have something amazing. That's what the social media is all about. I am neither going door to door shoving my belief down someone else's throat nor am I asking people to convert to my faith. It is a debate forum and hence I have every right to share something I think is amazing and then debate with fellow RF'ers regarding it's amazingness. I am sorry if it seems boring to you - to many others it may not be. And remember, you have the choice to not visit the threads that you don't find interesting.

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Jayhawker Soule said:

Maybe were you more honest about you intentions to begin with ...

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If you go back and read my comments, the first paragraph was about this thread and where I mentioned that I started this thread for learning and common dialog and not for debate.

On the other hand, the second paragraph was talking about one of my thread that Caladan mentioned indirectly when he said stuff about proclaiming the amazingness of one's religion/book etc. So my statement regarding debate was about that post. And that post clearly was about debating the amazingness of Islam/Qur'an.

Please read/understand the entire context before labeling someone dishonest.

loverOfTruth said:

Please read/understand the entire context before labeling someone dishonest.

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You may be right. My apologies.

Jayhawker Soule said:

You may be right. My apologies.

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Thanks...we all make mistakes.

Jayhawker Soule said:

eselam, why not consider starting a new thread in the appropriate forum?

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, my apologies. I thought I had them in brackets. I will open a new thread when I have time, I won't post about it here anymore. Thanks Jay.

Some Reform and some Conservative Jews today consider Mohammed a true prophet, but on the same note they also rule that driving on the Sabbath is acceptable - despite the fact that it is indeed kindling fire in the most obvious way, which is explicitly prohibited in the Torah by punishment of death. Officially though, I don't think there is a 100% agreed upon view of Mohammed. Some people say he was a good guy, others say not. It all really depends on who you ask. My personal view on the matter, as an Orthodox Jew, is that I do agree that it's not idolatry and though I do not believe in Islam there is no reason to say a non-Jew is wrong for believing in Mohammed as a prophet. I tend to agree with Rambam for the most part. However, I don't know enough about Islam to say anything else about it regarding this matter. However, I don't think Rambam (or myself included) would say that the right thing to do is say your main prophet is a madman to your face just to express our view points on the matter. But, I'll show you what Rambam wrote. It should also be noted that the Rambam was a doctor for the King of Egypt when he lived there and had very close ties and mutual respect for Muslims.

I'll quote a few things of the Rambam. Wikpedia actually has a few good articles regarding this. The most neutral and I think widely esteemed view I'll cite:

""All those words of Jesus of Nazareth and of this Ishmaelite [i.e., Muhammad] who arose after him are only to make straight the path for the messianic king and to prepare the whole world to serve the Lord together. As it is said: 'For then I will change the speech of the peoples to a pure speech so that all of them shall call on the name of the Lord and serve him with one accord' (Zephaniah 3:9).""

The Ishmaelites are not at all idolaters; [idolatry] has long been severed from their mouths and hearts; and they attribute to God a proper unity, a unity concerning which there is no doubt. And because they lie about us, and falsely attribute to us the statement that God has a son, is no reason for us to lie about them and say that they are idolaters . . . And should anyone say that the house that they honor [the Kaaba] is a house of idolatry and an idol is hidden within it, which their ancestors used to worship, then what of it? The hearts of those who bow down toward it today are [directed] only toward Heaven . . . [Regarding] the Ishmaelites today – idolatry has been severed from the mouths of all of them [including] women and children. Their error and foolishness is in other things which cannot be put into writing because of the renegades and wicked among Israel [i.e., apostates]. But as regards the unity of God they have no error at all."

Regarding Mohammed, you might not like it as it isn't politically correct, but you must also consider what else the Rambam said above:

"After [Jesus] arose the Madman who emulated his precursor [Jesus], since he paved the way for him. But he added the further objective of procuring rule and submission [talb al-mulk; pursuit of sovereignty] and he invented what is well known [Islam]."