are miracles essential for being a prophet?

There was an interesting reply (post 244) from Dirty Penguin to MarkyMark, in another thread Muslims: The testimony of a man who said he heard an angel while alone in a cave, which I would like to address and ask some questions.

markymark said:

personally i believe Mohammed was a false prophet as he did not preform one recorded miracle

Click to expand...

dirty penguin said:

Performing "miracles" is not a prerequisite for being a prophet/prophetess.

Click to expand...

Do prophet require to perform miracle in order for be a "prophet"?

1. But in order to ask or answer such question, I'd suppose that we need TO DEFINE what is a "miracle"?
2. As well as which miracle do we accept and which we wouldn't accept?

Today, with the Roman Catholic Church, the way I understand it, a person required to perform - at the very least - 2 miracles, before a person could be conferred "sainthood". To me, the claims for such-and-such miracles, seemed arbitrary.

And there are some prophets mentioned in the Tanakh or the (OT) Bible, who seemingly have performed no miracle. One that come to mind, was Nathan, who advised David, and was involved in coronation of Solomon.

So if prophet don't need to perform miracle, then what make a prophet "prophet"?

That's an excellent question ... Are miracles essential for being a prophet..

and what is a miracle...?

What do you think would be the chances of a poor orphaned child raised in the desert outside Mecca and a shepherd and later a camel driver and caravan leader becoming such an influence in Arabia at the time...? Here He was unlettered...without much support becoming a pivotal figure inlater history and leading a people of faith to victory over wealthy pagans as well as undermining the power of the Byzantine and Sassanian empires (the two most powerful empires of their day in that part of the world) at the same time?

What chance would an obscure child have born to poor parents and having no connection to the powerful classes or the religious elite of His day have of being better known throughout the world today than any Ceasar?

What chance did a cast off child picked up by a wife of Pharoah have of liberating HIs people from slavery within HIs lifetime?

arthra said:

What do you think would be the chances of a poor orphaned child raised in the desert outside Mecca and a shepherd and later a camel driver and caravan leader becoming such an influence in Arabia at the time...? Here He was unlettered...without much support becoming a pivotal figure inlater history and leading a people of faith to victory over wealthy pagans as well as undermining the power of the Byzantine and Sassanian empires (the two most powerful empires of their day in that part of the world) at the same time?

What chance would an obscure child have born to poor parents and having no connection to the powerful classes or the religious elite of His day have of being better known throughout the world today than any Ceasar?

What chance did a cast off child picked up by a wife of Pharoah have of liberating HIs people from slavery within HIs lifetime?

Click to expand...

None of which are miracles.

Any individual can rise up from power, and become leader of men. Sargon the Great was of humble birth, and yet created the Akkadian empire, and taking over the Sumerian city-states; it was the 1st true empire. He ruled for 55 years (flourished in 23rd century BCE), and in that time, he made the Sumerian-Akkadian greater, not just because of his conquests, but in development of art and literature. It was said, that his mother abandoned him when he was infant, in a basket, floating in the river, just like Moses centuries later.

And being unlettered doesn't mean much too, because you rise to power without learning to read or write. Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan and Charlemagne were all unlettered, and they were leaders of men.

None of these names that I have mentioned founded religions, but they are just examples of people who rose out poverty or lack of education to powers.

gnostic said:

There was an interesting reply (post 244) from Dirty Penguin to MarkyMark, in another thread Muslims: The testimony of a man who said he heard an angel while alone in a cave, which I would like to address and ask some questions.

Do prophet require to perform miracle in order for be a "prophet"?

1. But in order to ask or answer such question, I'd suppose that we need TO DEFINE what is a "miracle"?
2. As well as which miracle do we accept and which we wouldn't accept?

Today, with the Roman Catholic Church, the way I understand it, a person required to perform - at the very least - 2 miracles, before a person could be conferred "sainthood". To me, the claims for such-and-such miracles, seemed arbitrary.

And there are some prophets mentioned in the Tanakh or the (OT) Bible, who seemingly have performed no miracle. One that come to mind, was Nathan, who advised David, and was involved in coronation of Solomon.

So if prophet don't need to perform miracle, then what make a prophet "prophet"?

Click to expand...

In Judaism, nevi'im (generally translated as "prophets") had nothing to do, by definition, with soothsaying or predicting the future (though some did make such predictions), nor did they all make miracles. Nor is a navi just someone who has spoken with God, because Jews believe that everyone is capable of speaking with God, at least in theory. A navi, properly speaking, is someone who has received messages of overarching spiritual teaching and social reform from God, and has been directed by God to spread such teachings and messages of social reform to the people and/or to the government, in God's name. It's quite a specific definition.

Incidentally, we also generally believe that the age of prophets ended with Ezra, Nechemiah, Zechariah, and Malachi, who all lived and prophesied around the beginning of the Second Temple period (around 500-450 BCE), and there will be no more prophets until the messiah comes (which has not yet happened).

Friends,

Personal understanding is that no one performs miracles. Existence itself is the biggest miracle!
Those who have reached certain levels in yoga/meditation become more sensitive than most others and so the are able to decipher the information and present the same in a manner not usually presented and so the normal mind finds it to be a miracle.

Through kriya yoga one can learn to walk on water, levitate, etc.

Love & rgds

gnostic said:

None of which are miracles.

Any individual can rise up from power, and become leader of men. Sargon the Great was of humble birth, and yet created the Akkadian empire, and taking over the Sumerian city-states; it was the 1st true empire. He ruled for 55 years (flourished in 23rd century BCE), and in that time, he made the Sumerian-Akkadian greater, not just because of his conquests, but in development of art and literature. It was said, that his mother abandoned him when he was infant, in a basket, floating in the river, just like Moses centuries later.

And being unlettered doesn't mean much too, because you rise to power without learning to read or write. Attila the Hun, Genghis Khan and Charlemagne were all unlettered, and they were leaders of men.

None of these names that I have mentioned founded religions, but they are just examples of people who rose out poverty or lack of education to powers.

Click to expand...

Yeah I thought of that also..as you mention none of them founded religions and they are singularly forgotten for the most part.. Founding a new civilization and culture is something that requires much more than being a mere conqueror. Also your statement ... "Any individual can rise up from power, and become leader of men.." is not so convincing...How many men have you lead?

arthra said:

How many men have you lead?

Click to expand...

Well, there was that one time when he fronted the "boy band" from Brisbane.

gnostic said:

So if prophet don't need to perform miracle, then what make a prophet "prophet"?

Click to expand...

The answer to that riddle lies in the individual's ability in convincing others what they know is not so. No doubt suspension of disbelief figures prominently in such coercion.

There were many "miracles" requested of Prophets and many times they were not performed..

Some examples..

15:31 Likewise also the chief priests mocking said among themselves with the scribes, He saved others; himself he cannot save.
15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

(King James Bible, Mark)

From Surih 5 "The Table":

112. Behold! the disciples said: "O Jesus the son of Mary! can thy Lord send down to us a table set (with viands) from heaven?" Said Jesus: "Fear Allah, if ye have faith."
113. They said: "We only wish to eat thereof and satisfy our hearts, and to know that thou hast indeed told us the truth; and that we ourselves may be witnesses to the miracle."
114. Said Jesus the son of Mary: "O Allah our Lord! send us from heaven a table set (with viands), that there may be for us -- for the first and the last of us -- a solemn festival and a sign from Thee; and provide for our sustenance, for Thou art the best Sustainer (of our needs)."
115. Allah said: "I will send it down unto you: but if any of you after that resisteth faith, I will punish him with a penalty such as I have not inflicted on anyone among all the peoples."

(The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali tr), Surah 5)

In the Baha'i Writings there was an incident described

No sooner had Haji Mulla Hasan presented himself to Bahá'u'lláh than he discovered the ocean of His utterance surging before him and saw himself as a mere drop compared to the vastness of Bahá'u'lláh's knowledge. Having had his questions answered with brilliance and simplicity, he then ventured to inform Bahá'u'lláh that the divines regarded the performance of a miracle to be the final and conclusive evidence of the authenticity of His mission.

These are the words of Bahá'u'lláh in answer to him:

Although you have no right to ask this, for God should
test His creatures, and they should not test God, still I allow
and accept this request... The ulamas[1] must assemble,
and, with one accord, choose one miracle, and write that,
after the performance of this miracle they will no longer
entertain doubts about Me, and that all will acknowledge and
confess the truth of My Cause. Let them seal this paper, and
bring it to Me. This must be the accepted criterion: if the
miracle is performed, no doubt will remain for them; and if
not, We shall be convicted of imposture.(18)

[1 Divines and learned men of Islam.]

Haji Mulla Hasan found this answer to be satisfactory. He arose, reverently kissed the knee of Bahá'u'lláh and promised to convey His words to the divines. But the assemblage of the divines decided not to respond to Bahá'u'lláh's challenge and did not pursue the matter. Haji Mulla Hasan conveyed this decision to Bahá'u'lláh through Prince Zaynu'l-'Abidin Khan.

Upon hearing this news, Bahá'u'lláh is reported to have said:

We have, through this all-satisfying, all-embracing message
which We sent, revealed and vindicated the miracles of all
the Prophets, inasmuch as We left the choice to the ulamas
themselves, undertaking to reveal whatever they would
decide upon.(19)

~ Adib Taherzadeh, The Revelation of Baha'u'llah v 1, p. 145

Regarding "miracles"

We entreat Our loved ones not to besmirch the hem of Our raiment with the dust of falsehood, neither to allow references to what they have regarded as miracles and prodigies to debase Our rank and station, or to mar the purity and sanctity of Our name.

~ Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 33

gnostic said:

So if prophet don't need to perform miracle, then what make a prophet "prophet"?

Click to expand...

One can't be a prophet or a mystic without having Divine encounters.

One can't have Divine encounters without experiencing altered states of transpersonal consciousness.

One can't experience altered states of consciousness without activating the archetypes of the collective unconscious.

One of those archetypes is the archetype of mana.

Miracles are psychophysical manifestations of the archetype of mana.

Mana Personalities

"mana, n. [native Polynesian term.] the impersonal supernatural force which certain primitive peoples attribute good fortune, magical powers, etc. Best applied here as intuitive powers or symbols of power and wisdom that reside in the depths of our psyche. Mana can attract or repel, wreak destruction or heal, confronting the EGO with a supraordinate force. To be 'possessed' by these 'mana' personalities is dangerous and can result in megalomania. When properly integrated the conscious and unconscious complement each other and unfolding of the wise self arises harmoneous.

These 'mana' personalities are symbols of the power and wisdom that lie deep within parts of our own psyche. But, like other things in our unconscious they may be projected. For example, instead of making contact with this inner store of power and wisdom, we may choose to disown it and see it as the property of someone else, some national leader or some superman figure from modern mythology.

[...]

Common symbols of the Wise Old Man include the king, magician, prophet or guru and guide. Common symbols for the Great Mother include a goddess or other female figure associated with fertility (e.g. a nude female figure with large breasts, or many breasts, or broad buttocks, or prominent vagina), priestess and prophetess.

The words 'prophet' and 'prophetess' are used here in the sense of someone through whom a god or goddess speaks."

Also you may recall the "devil" requested that Jesus perform miracles:

4:3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread.

4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.

4:5 And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.

4:6 And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

4:7 If thou therefore wilt worship me, all shall be thine.

4:8 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behind me, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

4:9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down from hence: 4:10 For it is written, He shall give his angels charge over thee, to keep thee: 4:11 And in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

YmirGF said:

Well, there was that one time when he fronted the "boy band" from Brisbane.

Click to expand...

I bet it wasn't easy...:cover:

arthra said:

Yeah I thought of that also..as you mention none of them founded religions and they are singularly forgotten for the most part.. Founding a new civilization and culture is something that requires much more than being a mere conqueror. Also your statement ... "Any individual can rise up from power, and become leader of men.." is not so convincing...How many men have you lead?

Click to expand...

Me?

I don't have the ambition for power. Do you?

I don't want to lead men. You can give me a map and compass, I will still lose my way. If I do try to lead, I'll probably lead them around in circle, and make them confused and lost. Do you?

The only passion I have to read, study/research and write about myths, legends, fables and folklore: retell old stories. And look at ancient arts that relate to myths.

gnostic said:

Me?

I don't have the ambition for power. Do you?

I don't want to lead men. You can give me a map and compass, I will still lose my way. If I do try to lead, I'll probably lead them around in circle, and make them confused and lost. Do you?

The only passion I have to read, study/research and write about myths, legends, fables and folklore: retell old stories. And look at ancient arts that relate to myths.

Click to expand...

I thought so....or guessed. Leading men is no easy matter but you seem to have suggested anyone can do it.

Anyway there's another interesting passage that I think refers to miracles in the Gospel of Mark and it goes like this:

8:11 And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him, seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.
8:12 And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto this generation.
8:13 And he left them, and entering into the ship again departed to the other side.

So He says "There shall no sign be given unto this generation" and He left them..

It seems the later Gospels have additions to this

16:4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

(King James Bible, Matthew)


2:18 Then answered the Jews and said unto him, What sign shewest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

(King James Bible, John)

11:29 And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say, This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.

(King James Bible, Luke)

So were there additions by scribes later?

Watch this video to understand the story of prophet mohammed and the events
which occurred before around 1400 years ago.


Then we can discuss if he was just an ordinary man like the others or there is some differences

[youtube]hf0EV7LbmKs[/youtube]
The Message (MOVIE) - A Film On The Life Of Holy Prophet Mohammed(P.B.U.H).flv - YouTube

zenzero said:

Through kriya yoga one can learn to walk on water, levitate, etc.

Click to expand...

What.

Prove it.

A prophet being one who has been chosen by 'god' to pass on some 'truth'; does such a truth need to be accompanied by 'miracles'?

It is indeed an interesting question... personally I do not think that the 'truth' requires 'miracles' to be performed, nor that one who has been chosen in such a manner needs to even be capable of such feats, rather I believe that miracles merely help a population recognise some greater legitimacy of the individual in question, thereby granting their words greater influence and credibility - in this way miracles become a tool by which to establish authenticity of the 'truth' being relayed, if that is so, then should the authenticity of a prophet be accepted without having performed miracles, then there is no need for miracles.

'No!' Sayeth the Prophet!




(that would be me)