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Slavery - yes or no?

Me Myself

Back to my username
but if this is the case, then why does the Bible condone keeping other people as slaves?

Because it is a horrible moral book for people of today. It also condones genocide and stoning children.


why is it that the mainstream churches will still not accept them? (generally speaking)

Denial of what their bibles say, looking the other way when confronted with the passages, apophenia for reinterpretations that supposedly discard it, etc, etc , etc.
 

nnmartin

Well-Known Member
I went into 2 Christian bookshops on my recent holiday to the UK, hoping for some great
Christian mystical literature only to be politely shown the door and told 'we only sell books relating to real Christianity here'

I was surprised by that. Needless to say, the main general bookshops in the Highstreet (Waterstones) had a whole host of interesting books by various authors.

the only thing I managed to get from the C. bookstore was a nice Celtic cross key ring!
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
They're two different things. Slavery, and punishment for crimes. The slavery in the bible is very much like the slavery we're familiar with. In fact, it has instructions for how to beat your slaves and how much you can buy them for.

How would you know? You're not familiar with biblical slavery.. or that punishment for crimes results in revoked rights - and therefore slavery.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
How would you know? You're not familiar with biblical slavery.. or that punishment for crimes results in revoked rights - and therefore slavery.
:confused:

I would say it is yourself who is not familiar with the the rules and laws concerning the taking and keeping of slaves in the Old Testament.

I would suggest a thorough reading of the first five books in the Old Testament to find out who can become a slave, under what circumstances,, the differing treatment of 'outsider' and Hebrew slaves, the releasing of slaves, the treatment of female slaves and the consideration of slaves as property.
 

Tristesse

Well-Known Member
How would you know? You're not familiar with biblical slavery.. or that punishment for crimes results in revoked rights - and therefore slavery.

I've read the bible. I'm pretty familiar with the passages. And the children born of your slaves are your prermanent property. How is that punishment for crimes? The children did nothing but be born. The bible tells you how much you can buy them for, how badly you can beat them and that they are your property. Do you find it moral to own another human being as property and be permitted to beat them?
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
:confused:

I would say it is yourself who is not familiar with the the rules and laws concerning the taking and keeping of slaves in the Old Testament.

I would suggest a thorough reading of the first five books in the Old Testament to find out who can become a slave, under what circumstances,, the differing treatment of 'outsider' and Hebrew slaves, the releasing of slaves, the treatment of female slaves and the consideration of slaves as property.

You would suggest I read it.. and I would suggest you understand what you've read.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
I've read the bible. I'm pretty familiar with the passages. And the children born of your slaves are your prermanent property. How is that punishment for crimes? The children did nothing but be born. The bible tells you how much you can buy them for, how badly you can beat them and that they are your property. Do you find it moral to own another human being as property and be permitted to beat them?

Reading it counts for little unless you understand it.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
You would suggest I read it.. and I would suggest you understand what you've read.

Reading it counts for little unless you understand it.
Great, can you help me understand these passages...

Leviticus 25:
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Exodus 21:20-21
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

Exodus 21:2-6
If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free, then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the door-post and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

Exodus 21:7-11
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

Genesis 16:1-2
"Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai."
bullet

Genesis 30:3-4
"And she said, Behold my maid Bilhah, go in unto her; and she shall bear upon my knees, that I may also have children by her. And she gave him Bilhah her handmaid to wife: and Jacob went in unto her."
bullet

Genesis 30:9-10
"When Leah saw that she had left bearing, she took Zilpah her maid, and gave her Jacob to wife. And Zilpah Leah's maid bare Jacob a son."
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
Great, can you help me understand these passages...

Leviticus 25:
Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

Exodus 21:20-21
When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property.

Exodus 21:2-6
If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything. If he comes alone, he is to go free alone; but if he has a wife when he comes, she is to go with him. If his master gives him a wife and she bears him sons or daughters, the woman and her children shall belong to her master, and only the man shall go free.
But if the servant declares, ‘I love my master and my wife and children and do not want to go free, then his master must take him before the judges. He shall take him to the door or the door-post and pierce his ear with an awl. Then he will be his servant for life.

Exodus 21:7-11
When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl's owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment.

Genesis 16:1-2
"Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai."
bullet

Genesis 30:3-4
"And she said, Behold my maid Bilhah, go in unto her; and she shall bear upon my knees, that I may also have children by her. And she gave him Bilhah her handmaid to wife: and Jacob went in unto her."
bullet

Genesis 30:9-10
"When Leah saw that she had left bearing, she took Zilpah her maid, and gave her Jacob to wife. And Zilpah Leah's maid bare Jacob a son."

It's better to be a slave with hope for freedom, promotion, and increase, than to be an outcast to God's kingdom.. The outcasts don't even know they're slaves.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
It's better to be a slave with hope for freedom, promotion, and increase, than to be an outcast to God's kingdom.. The outcasts don't even know they're slaves.
And those slaves, such as females and non-Hebrews, who have no hope for freedom?
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
And those slaves, such as females and non-Hebrews, who have no hope for freedom?

Not in reply to your question - You're already moving too quickly.. it takes a little more time and contemplation. So.. I'll leave you to it.
 

tumbleweed41

Resident Liberal Hippie
Not in reply to your question - You're already moving too quickly.. it takes a little more time and contemplation. So.. I'll leave you to it.
OK, I think I will take some time to attempt to understand these three instances of the legalized sexual abuse of slaves...

Genesis 16:1-2
"Now Sarai Abram's wife bare him no children: and she had an handmaid, an Egyptian, whose name was Hagar. And Sarai said unto Abram, Behold now, the LORD hath restrained me from bearing: I pray thee, go in unto my maid; it may be that I may obtain children by her. And Abram hearkened to the voice of Sarai."
bullet

Genesis 30:3-4
"And she said, Behold my maid Bilhah, go in unto her; and she shall bear upon my knees, that I may also have children by her. And she gave him Bilhah her handmaid to wife: and Jacob went in unto her."
bullet

Genesis 30:9-10
"When Leah saw that she had left bearing, she took Zilpah her maid, and gave her Jacob to wife. And Zilpah Leah's maid bare Jacob a son."
 

Tristesse

Well-Known Member
Not in reply to your question - You're already moving too quickly.. it takes a little more time and contemplation. So.. I'll leave you to it.

No it doesn't. It takes about 2 seconds(if that) to realize that owning another human as property and being allowed to beat them is immoral. And if you can't see that then I think you're religion has demoralized you to the point where you can no longer see immorality.
 

Sleeppy

Fatalist. Christian. Pacifist.
I worship nothing. Why would a "moral" being desire worship?

Time and contemplation. You should know that you worship everyday.. several times a day. Perhaps yourself.. perhaps other people, things, or actions.. ideals. You certainly worship your considerations in morality. Even now.

Why do you worship these things?
 
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