Determining literal and figurative scripture

Searcher of Light · Nov 30, 2005

May, i appreciate your stance, but you did not answer my question: How do you determine that the scripture you listed is literal and not figurative?

For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another.

It always returns to intrepretation: how is this verse any different from what has happened in the past? Rome conquering the Gallic peoples happened this way. Earthquakes were prevailent in many areas through the Roman Empire. The Fall of Rome falls under this verse. The black death in the Medieval Period of Europe falls under this verse. Countless other World Wars, such as the Mongul invasion of Europe and China, the Crusades, and even the wars of the colonial period have happened. What makes 1914 and WW1 special? What scripture points directly to WW1?

may · Dec 1, 2005

Searcher of Light said:
May, i appreciate your stance, but you did not answer my question: How do you determine that the scripture you listed is literal and not figurative?

It always returns to intrepretation: how is this verse any different from what has happened in the past? Rome conquering the Gallic peoples happened this way. Earthquakes were prevailent in many areas through the Roman Empire. The Fall of Rome falls under this verse. The black death in the Medieval Period of Europe falls under this verse. Countless other World Wars, such as the Mongul invasion of Europe and China, the Crusades, and even the wars of the colonial period have happened. What makes 1914 and WW1 special? What scripture points directly to WW1?

so why is the FIRST world war called just that ,? because there have always been various wars as you mentioned ,but the FIRST world war involved many nations
(Revelation 6:4) And another came forth, a fiery-colored horse; and to the one seated upon it there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him........... this horse represents war

plus as i mentioned , that date 1914also was to do with bible chronology .and unless a person goes round with their eyes closed the signs are all happening on a world wide scale , all at once within a certain generation of people with certain attitudes and ways ,and the reason for this increase in war, crime , etc etc, is because satan was cast down to the earth , so we see an increase in badness
So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him revelation 12;9

Searcher of Light · Dec 1, 2005

may said:
so why is the FIRST world war called just that ,? because there have always been various wars as you mentioned ,but the FIRST world war involved many nations
(Revelation 6:4) And another came forth, a fiery-colored horse; and to the one seated upon it there was granted to take peace away from the earth so that they should slaughter one another; and a great sword was given him........... this horse represents war

The First World War is just a name given to a multinational war by historians. The number of nations involved was no larger than many other historical wars. The Crusades for instance, involved many nations: The Byzantine Empire, The Holy Roman Empire, basically all of the Muslim nations fo the time.

Here is is one possible reading of Revelation 6:4 in context since you are reading it in a literal manner. (What teachings support the modern day literal intrepration of Revelation? This has always had me stumped) This reading shall be taken as prophecy with the statement in Chapters 1-3 that events will shortly come to pass from the time of the writing in mind. This idea is supported by Jesus' prophecy concerning the destruction of the temple coming to pass not long after He gave it. This reading is taken from the prophet tradition of the "Unveiling" or Apocalyptic style with symbology of the time being taken into account. It is by no means the only way this prophetic tradition is to be read. The original text with all its subtle word play would be a better subject to study.

Revelation 6 (NASV)

1Then I saw when the (A)Lamb broke one of the (B)seven seals, and I heard one of the (C)four living creatures saying as with a (D)voice of thunder, "Come." 2I looked, and behold, a (E)white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and (F)a crown was given to him, and he went out (G)conquering and to conquer.

White is often the symbol for death in eastern societies with black symbolizing life. A white horse is one of the more expensive breeds, fit for a king. There are myriad leaders this could represent: kings of Pontius, Gheigis Khan, and even Attila the Hun. All conquered several nations and warred with others.

3When He broke the second seal, I heard the (H)second living creature saying, "Come." 4And another, (I)a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to (J)take peace from the earth, and that men would slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.

Red of course, is the color blood. The peace in question is the Pax Romana. After the Pax Romana ended Rome errupted in many cival wars. What is the color of the Roman legions? Red.

5When He broke the third seal, I heard the (K)third living creature saying, "Come " I looked, and behold, a (L)black horse; and he who sat on it had a (M)pair of scales in his hand. 6And I heard something like a voice in the center of the (N)four living creatures saying, "A [a]quart of wheat for a [b]denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and (O)do not damage the oil and the wine."

Black is the symbol for life in many eastern cultures. Scales denotes that the figure is a distributer. A denarius of the time was valued at 16 donkeys. Source: http://www.answers.com/denarius&r=67 . Vs 6 represents the value of the denarius falling sharply, which was something the Jews of the period were wanting because it reflects the weakening of the Empire. It can also represent the famines that Rome's cival wars caused

Note the emphasis on the word living. In other words, they are referring to people or groups of people, not events or institutions such as nations.

may said:
plus as i mentioned , that date 1914also was to do with bible chronology .and unless a person goes round with their eyes closed the signs are all happening on a world wide scale , all at once within a certain generation of people with certain attitudes and ways ,and the reason for this increase in war, crime , etc etc, is because satan was cast down to the earth , so we see an increase in badness
So down the great dragon was hurled, the original serpent, the one called Devil and Satan, who is misleading the entire inhabited earth; he was hurled down to the earth, and his angels were hurled down with him revelation 12;9

You mention that the date 1914 has to do with bible chronology. Could you explain how and point out the verses?

may, I respect your stance, but be careful with tones of text. You are implying that my eyes are closed to signs that are apparent to you. At the same time, I could retaliate and state you are blind to the signs apparent in history. The main problem with much of prophetic Scripture is we read it through modern eyes only. Much of the metaphors and symbols used in prophetic writings are much different in how the contemporary audience of that time read them versus the modern audience. Understanding the culture the writings were placed in and written for yields a much richer understanding of meaning than reading it solely through modern eyes.
Until the end comes, or we pass on, no one knows what God's truth really is. We can all think we do, but that is just individual intrepretation. I am aware that my stance is just my individual intrepretation. What matters in the end is what God has to say about our individual intrepretations.

I am curious about all the different intrepretations that are out there, why people believe such, and exactly where they are coming from.

Popeyesays · Dec 2, 2005

In my opinion, and I've studied academically as a military historian, is that the first world-spanning war was the Anglo Dutch War of the later half of the 1600's. Battles were fought as far away as the South China Sea. And the Jesuit Portugese and the Protestant Dutch were locked in a titanic struggle for control of the Japan trade. So that's my nominee for the "First World War".

As to other interpretations of the Book of Revelations, I would offer this:
COMMENTARY ON THE TWELFTH CHAPTER OF THE REVELATION OF ST. JOHN
We have before explained that what is most frequently meant by the Holy City, the Jerusalem of God, which is mentioned in the Holy Book, is the Law of God. It is compared sometimes to a bride, and sometimes to Jerusalem, and again to the new heaven and earth. So in chapter 21, verses 1, 2 and 3 of the Revelation of St. John, it is said: "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be with them, and be their God."
Notice how clear and evident it is that the first heaven and earth signify the former Law. For it is said that the first heaven and earth have passed away and there is no more sea -- that is to say, that the earth is the place of judgment, and on this earth of judgment there is no sea, meaning that the teachings and the Law of God will entirely spread over the earth, and all men will enter the Cause of God, and the earth will be completely inhabited by believers; therefore, there will be no more sea, for the dwelling place and abode of man is the dry land. In other words, at that epoch the field of that Law will become the 68 pleasure-ground of man. Such earth is solid; the feet do not slip upon it.
The Law of God is also described as the Holy City, the New Jerusalem. It is evident that the New Jerusalem which descends from heaven is not a city of stone, mortar, bricks, earth and wood. It is the Law of God which descends from heaven and is called new, for it is clear that the Jerusalem which is of stone and earth does not descend from heaven, and that it is not renewed; but that which is renewed is the Law of God.
The Law of God is also compared to an adorned bride who appears with most beautiful ornaments, as it has been said in chapter 21 of the Revelation of St. John: "And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband."[1] And in chapter 12, verse 1, it is said: "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars." This woman is that bride, the Law of God that descended upon Muhammad. The sun with which she was clothed, and the moon which was under her feet, are the two nations which are under the shadow of that Law, the Persian and Ottoman kingdoms; for the emblem of Persia is the sun, and that of the Ottoman Empire is the crescent moon. Thus the sun and moon are the emblems of two kingdoms which are under the power of the Law of God. Afterward it is said: "upon her head is a crown of twelve stars." These twelve stars are the twelve Imams, who were the promoters of the Law of Muhammad and the educators of the people, shining like stars in the heaven of guidance.
[1 Rev. 21:2.]
Then it is said in the second verse: "and she being with child cried," meaning that this Law fell into the greatest difficulties and endured great troubles and afflictions until 69 a perfect offspring was produced -- that is, the coming Manifestation, the Promised One, Who is the perfect offspring, and Who was reared in the bosom of this Law, which is as its mother. The child Who is referred to is the Báb, the Primal Point, Who was in truth born from the Law of Muhammad -- that is to say, the Holy Reality, Who is the child and outcome of the Law of God, His mother, and Who is promised by that religion, finds a reality in the kingdom of that Law; but because of the despotism of the dragon the child was carried up to God. After twelve hundred and sixty days the dragon was destroyed, and the child of the Law of God, the Promised One, became manifest.
Verses 3 and 4. "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth."[1] These signs are an allusion to the dynasty of the Umayyads who dominated the Muhammadan religion. Seven heads and seven crowns mean seven countries and dominions over which the Umayyads had power: they were the Roman dominion around Damascus; and the Persian, Arabian and Egyptian dominions, together with the dominion of Africa -- that is to say, Tunis, Morocco and Algeria; the dominion of Andalusia, which is now Spain; and the dominion of the Turks of Transoxania. The Umayyads had power over these countries. The ten horns mean the names of the Umayyad rulers -- that is, without repetition, there were ten names of rulers, meaning ten names of commanders and chiefs -- the first is Abu Sufyan and the last Marvan -- but several of them bear the same name. So there are two Muaviya, three Yazid, two Valid, and two Marvan; but if the names were counted without repetition 70 there would be ten. The Umayyads, of whom the first was Abu Sufyan, Amir of Mecca and chief of the dynasty of the Umayyads, and the last was Marvan, destroyed the third part of the holy and saintly people of the lineage of Muhammad who were like the stars of heaven.
[1 Cf. Rev. 12:3-4.]
Verse 4. "And the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour the child as soon as it was born."[1] As we have before explained, this woman is the Law of God. The dragon was standing near the woman to devour her child, and this child was the promised Manifestation, the offspring of the Law of Muhammad. The Umayyads were always waiting to get possession of the Promised One, Who was to come from the line of Muhammad, to destroy and annihilate Him; for they much feared the appearance of the promised Manifestation, and they sought to kill any of Muhammad's descendants who might be highly esteemed.
[1 Cf. Rev. 12:4.]
Verse 5. "And she brought forth a man child, Who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron." This great son is the promised Manifestation Who was born of the Law of God and reared in the bosom of the divine teachings. The iron rod is a symbol of power and might -- it is not a sword -- and means that with divine power and might He will shepherd all the nations of the earth. This son is the Báb.
Verse 5. "And her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne." This is a prophecy of the Báb, Who ascended to the heavenly realm, to the Throne of God, and to the center of His Kingdom. Consider how all this corresponds to what happened.
Verse 6. "And the woman fled into the wilderness" -- that is to say, the Law of God fled to the wilderness, meaning the vast desert of Hijaz, and the Arabian Peninsula.
Verse 6. "Where she had a place prepared of God."[1]
[1 Cf. Rev. 12:6.] 71
The Arabian Peninsula became the abode and dwelling place, and the center of the Law of God.
Verse 6. "That they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days." In the terminology of the Holy Book these twelve hundred and sixty days mean the twelve hundred and sixty years that the Law of God was set up in the wilderness of Arabia, the great desert: from it the Promised One has come. After twelve hundred and sixty years that Law will have no more influence, for the fruit of that tree will have appeared, and the result will have been produced.
Consider how the prophecies correspond to one another. In the Apocalypse, the appearance of the Promised One is appointed after forty-two months, and Daniel expresses it as three times and a half, which is also forty-two months, which are twelve hundred and sixty days. In another passage of John's Revelation it is clearly spoken of as twelve hundred and sixty days, and in the Holy Book it is said that each day signifies one year. Nothing could be clearer than this agreement of the prophecies with one another. The Báb appeared in the year 1260 of the Hejira of Muhammad, which is the beginning of the universal era-reckoning of all Islam. There are no clearer proofs than this in the Holy Books for any Manifestation. For him who is just, the agreement of the times indicated by the tongues of the Great Ones is the most conclusive proof. There is no other possible explanation of these prophecies. Blessed are the just souls who seek the truth. But failing justice, the people attack, dispute and openly deny the evidence, like the Pharisees who, at the manifestation of Christ, denied with the greatest obstinacy the explanations of Christ and of His disciples. They obscured Christ's Cause before the ignorant people, saying, "These prophecies are not of Jesus, but of the Promised One Who shall come later, according to the conditions mentioned in the Bible." Some of these conditions were that He must 72 have a kingdom, be seated on the throne of David, enforce the Law of the Bible, and manifest such justice that the wolf and the lamb shall gather at the same spring.
And thus they prevented the people from knowing Christ.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 71)

Regards,
Scott

may · Dec 2, 2005

Searcher of Light said:
You mention that the date 1914 has to do with bible chronology. Could you explain how and point out the verses?

may, I respect your stance, but be careful with tones of text. You are implying that my eyes are closed to signs that are apparent to you. At the same time, I could retaliate and state you are blind to the signs apparent in history. The main problem with much of prophetic Scripture is we read it through modern eyes only. Much of the metaphors and symbols used in prophetic writings are much different in how the contemporary audience of that time read them versus the modern audience. iQUOTE] its because the true knowledge would become known in the last days ,which is now, and that knowledge would be given to a faithful slave class not to just one individual, so for me i have put my trust in that slave class because it is my belief that Jesus christ is working through this faithful class of people , i also realize that the world in general do not recognize the channel that Jesus is using to acomplish his Fathers will on the earth. many of the prophecies in revelation are tied up with prophecies in the book of daniel
Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings ,,matthew 24;45-47

And as for you, O Daniel, make secret the words and seal up the book, until the time of [the] end. Many will rove about, and the [true] knowledge will become abundant. Daniel 12;4

(Daniel 8:17) So he came beside where I was standing, but when he came I got terrified so that I fell upon my face. And he proceeded to say to me: "Understand, O son of man, that the vision is for the time of [the] end."

(Daniel 12:9) And he went on to say: "Go, Daniel, because the words are made secret and sealed up until the time of [the] end.......... yes the time of the end started in 1914 this was the time when Jesus was made king in the heavenly kingdom goverment , yes the ride on the white horse which is a sign of rightous purity goes on

"Look! a white horse; and the one seated upon it had a bow; and a crown was given him, and he went forth conquering and to complete his conquest."REVELATION 6:2.

Once the Kingdom was born, it was time to bring the restored Christian congregationnow with increased Kingdom responsibilitiesmore closely in line with the pattern of the first-century Christian congregation

"By inspiration I came to be in the Lords day."REVELATION 1:10

Jesus triumphant ride began back in 1914, at the very beginning of the Lords day. (Psalm 2:6)

"Go subduing in the midst of your enemies."PSALM 110:2

White is often used to symbolize righteousness. Gods throne of judgment is white; the armies in heaven are on white horses and are clothed in white, clean, fine linen. (Re 20:11; 19:14; compare Re 6:11; 19:8.) We could conclude, therefore, that the white horse represents righteous warfare ...........so for me to understand about the prophecies for these last days there is only one channel to get accurate information about bible prophecy ,and that is the faithful slave class so all i can say is dont go along with the opposers check it out i know i did and now i am spiritually fed

may · Dec 2, 2005

Popeyesays said:
They obscured Christ's Cause before the ignorant people, saying, "These prophecies are not of Jesus, but of the Promised One Who shall come later, according to the conditions mentioned in the Bible." Some of these conditions were that He must 72 have a kingdom, be seated on the throne of David, enforce the Law of the Bible, and manifest such justice that the wolf and the lamb shall gather at the same spring.
And thus they prevented the people from knowing Christ.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, p. 71)

Regards,
Scott

it is my belief that Jesus is already king of Gods kingdom in the heavens and this kingship was given to him in 1914 in the heavens, but the people in general do not recognize this kingship because the religions of christendom as a whole ,do not recognize his kingship and keep looking for a future time and they have missed the signs leading up to this 1914 date. and christendom claim to represent the God of the bible but really she has fallen fast asleep

MdmSzdWhtGuy · Dec 2, 2005

Guess we are overlooking the fact that Peter and company talked in the first century about the end times as if they were imminent, and that has been 20 centuries ago. The Church has been preaching that we are in the end times ever since. So far hasn't happened yet.

I recall when I was in high school there was a big broo ha ha about the world was going to end at a specific time. I was in algebra class at the time, and had to take a test I hadn't studied for. I was hoping the end was coming, as I had paid much more attention in Sunday School that week than I had in regular school.

Sad, but inevitable result? . . . I got a "C" and for about the bazillionth time, those who predicted the end of the world were wrong.

B.

Quiddity · Dec 2, 2005

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
Guess we are overlooking the fact that Peter and company talked in the first century about the end times as if they were imminent, and that has been 20 centuries ago. The Church has been preaching that we are in the end times ever since. So far hasn't happened yet.

I recall when I was in high school there was a big broo ha ha about the world was going to end at a specific time. I was in algebra class at the time, and had to take a test I hadn't studied for. I was hoping the end was coming, as I had paid much more attention in Sunday School that week than I had in regular school.

Sad, but inevitable result? . . . I got a "C" and for about the bazillionth time, those who predicted the end of the world were wrong.

B.

Which church?
And what exactly do you have to provide such a claim?

~Victor

MdmSzdWhtGuy · Dec 2, 2005

Victor, in the first century Peter's church, of which I beleive you are a member was the only christian church in existence, to my knowledge. And regarding the end times being imminent there are scriptures to this effect as well as letters of Peter. I don't recall the specific scriptures off the top of my head, but they are listed in another thread on this page.

When Jesus talked to an audience about the fact that the son of man would return before that generation had passed. He also told followers that some in attendance would never taste death before the end came. Sorry I lack cites.

B.

Quiddity · Dec 2, 2005

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
Victor, in the first century Peter's church, of which I beleive you are a member was the only christian church in existence, to my knowledge. And regarding the end times being imminent there are scriptures to this effect as well as letters of Peter. I don't recall the specific scriptures off the top of my head, but they are listed in another thread on this page.
When Jesus talked to an audience about the fact that the son of man would return before that generation had passed. He also told followers that some in attendance would never taste death before the end came. Sorry I lack cites.

B.

I know what you are talking about and you are correct. Although it never made it up to becoming an actual teaching. Different catholics believe in all sorts of stuff that aren't taught by the Church magesterium.

~Victor

joeboonda · Dec 2, 2005

I believe the Bible is the inspired, innerant, and infallible word of God. Many seeming mistakes or contradictions can and have been cleared up in many books by good theologians. We should take the Bible for its literal word unless it says otherwise. Understand, when John wrote Revelation, he was trying to describe what he was seeing as a first century man. Can you imagine describing Nuclear war, and modern Tanks, Aircraft, Biological warfare, if you had never seen such things? I think we can and have learned a lot about the end times through honest, deep bible study. There have been huge breakthroughs, especially since 1948, when Israel became a nation in one day as the Bible predicted, along with many other things about it, like that the land would bloom, ppl would come from the north, south, east, west, and all that. Now we see that we can get some understanding of end time events. We can see that there will be a Great Seven Year Tribulation, with the Antichrist and False Prophet, that Jesus IS coming again at the end of that time. On a happy note, I believe the church will be spared from that time of wrath, that we will be raptured up before it happens, but that is another story. Just thot I'd add my thots. A great book is Vanished Into Thin Air, by Hal Lindsey, He explains alot about interpretation and end time events, whether you agree with all he says or not, it really explains things well, pick up at your local Christian bookstore.

Joeboonda

may · Dec 2, 2005

MdmSzdWhtGuy said:
Guess we are overlooking the fact that Peter and company talked in the first century about the end times as if they were imminent, and that has been 20 centuries ago. The Church has been preaching that we are in the end times ever since. So far hasn't happened yet.

I recall when I was in high school there was a big broo ha ha about the world was going to end at a specific time. I was in algebra class at the time, and had to take a test I hadn't studied for. I was hoping the end was coming, as I had paid much more attention in Sunday School that week than I had in regular school.

Sad, but inevitable result? . . . I got a "C" and for about the bazillionth time, those who predicted the end of the world were wrong.

B.

The bible does not predict the end of the world ,the end of a jewish system of things ended in 70 .c.e. that was the litral fullfilment back then ,but the end of a system of things is going to happen again at armaggedon, and we do not know the day or hour but the signs that Jesus left us to indicate that he was ready to go into action against this manmade system of things , are all being fullfilled right now since 1914 . so it is not the end of the world but it will be the end of manmade rulership Daniel 2;44

Popeyesays · Dec 2, 2005

may said:
The bible does not predict the end of the world ,the end of a jewish system of things ended in 70 .c.e. that was the litral fullfilment back then ,but the end of a system of things is going to happen again at armaggedon, and we do not know the day or hour but the signs that Jesus left us to indicate that he was ready to go into action against this manmade system of things , are all being fullfilled right now since 1914 . so it is not the end of the world but it will be the end of manmade rulership Daniel 2;44

Too late! It slipped past you once, twice, three times.
622 AD, 1844 CE, 1863 CE - Islam, Babi and Baha`i. Each time was judgement day.

As a matter of fact did you know that the actual battle of Armaggedon was fought in 1917 within sight of Meggido and Carmel? General Allenby drove out the Turks from their last bastion in the area of Hiafa.

Regards,
Scott

Searcher of Light · Dec 2, 2005

Popeyesays illustrates an excellent point. Everyone has a different intrepretation on what Scripture means. We are limited in our understanding as humans. Of course everyone will believe that how they intrepret Scriptures, whether literal or figurative, is the truth. Why else would they believe such? We must all be open to the idea that what we believe could be completely wrong in God's eyes. But then, we won't know till we talk with Him.

joeboonda said:
I believe the Bible is the inspired, innerant, and infallible word of God. Many seeming mistakes or contradictions can and have been cleared up in many books by good theologians. We should take the Bible for its literal word unless it says otherwise.

Many good theologians have also illustrated inconsistancies in Scripture in relation to other contemporary writers. This doesn't negate the texts from being inspired. Who is the say that God did not make those inconsistancies on purpose to drive us to study deeper? Often He used pagans to further His Will.

How do we know when Scripture is saying its not to be taken literal? Jesus did not state that He was going to be teaching in parables. He just said the parable and left it to the listeners to determine if it was literal or figurative. Scripture is no different and confuses us as much as Jesus' parables did the apostles.

joeboonda said:
Understand, when John wrote Revelation, he was trying to describe what he was seeing as a first century man. Can you imagine describing Nuclear war, and modern Tanks, Aircraft, Biological warfare, if you had never seen such things?

Leonardo da Vinci drew and described ideas that were strikingly similar to our modern war machines. Could not God have granted the same understanding to John?

joeboonda said:
I think we can and have learned a lot about the end times through honest, deep bible study. There have been huge breakthroughs, especially since 1948, when Israel became a nation in one day as the Bible predicted, along with many other things about it, like that the land would bloom, ppl would come from the north, south, east, west, and all that. Now we see that we can get some understanding of end time events. We can see that there will be a Great Seven Year Tribulation, with the Antichrist and False Prophet, that Jesus IS coming again at the end of that time. On a happy note, I believe the church will be spared from that time of wrath, that we will be raptured up before it happens, but that is another story. Just thot I'd add my thots. A great book is Vanished Into Thin Air, by Hal Lindsey, He explains alot about interpretation and end time events, whether you agree with all he says or not, it really explains things well, pick up at your local Christian bookstore.

Joeboonda

I studied the Premillenial view of the End with on open mind a while ago. I can see where it comes from, but I found it illogical when viewed in light of other Scripture. Scripture tends to explain itself in the context of history. The OT makes it pretty clear that Satan has already been "cast" to the world throughout its wording. I find the idea of THE antichrist interesting considering Paul often talked about the antichrist already being found in the early church (Early Gnosticism and Ebionitism, no offense meant toward those of those beliefs, were being referred to by Paul.) Paul and Peter also talked about the false prophet being present in the early church throughout their epistles. The rapture idea is not present in Scripture when I searched for it.

I will have to look into that book thanks for the title.

Searcher of Light · Dec 3, 2005

may said:
its because the true knowledge would become known in the last days ,which is now, and that knowledge would be given to a faithful slave class not to just one individual, so for me i have put my trust in that slave class because it is my belief that Jesus christ is working through this faithful class of people , i also realize that the world in general do not recognize the channel that Jesus is using to acomplish his Fathers will on the earth. many of the prophecies in revelation are tied up with prophecies in the book of daniel
Who really is the faithful and discreet slave whom his master appointed over his domestics, to give them their food at the proper time? 46 Happy is that slave if his master on arriving finds him doing so. 47 Truly I say to YOU, He will appoint him over all his belongings ,,matthew 24;45-47

I noticed that you post Scripture out of context. I would be careful doing that. It was a ploy used to tempt Jesus: Matthew 4. Single verse posts are often easy to misunderstand.

I believe we are in the end times and have been since the time of Jesus' death. 1 Peter 4:6-8 Peter writes to his audience of the time stating his belief that the end was near.
My reading of Matthew 42-48:

42"Therefore (A)be on the alert, for you do not know which day your Lord is coming.

We know He is coming eventually. People have been looking for signs since He died. When He does come this universe shall be destroyed. 2 Peter 3:10-18
43"But be sure of this, that (B)if the head of the house had known (C)at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have been on the alert and would not have allowed his house to be broken into.

In other words, it will happen in such a way that people will not be prepared except for those who are true to God.

44"For this reason (D)you also must be ready; for (E)the Son of Man is coming at an hour when you do not think He will.

Not that He will return at a time where no one will think He will. In other words, there will be no signs because those would make a person think He is coming shortly. Which, if this is taken completely literally: for as long as people wil lthink He will be coming through signs etc, He will not come. Time has no meaning to the Father. We can be ready, but we cannot think He is coming within our lifetime. We can HOPE He will, however.

45"(F)Who then is the (G)faithful and (H)sensible slave whom his master (I)put in charge of his household to give them their food at the proper time?

46"Blessed is that slave whom his master finds so doing when he comes.

47"Truly I say to you that (J)he will put him in charge of all his possessions.

48"But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,'

Who is the slave and who is the master? The verses make that apparent. Anyone who follows after Jesus is the slave and Jesus is the master. The slave is prepared for whenever the master will come, but is not wasting time looking for the master. Instead they are going about their master's will.

I have to say I am not clear on where 1914 is coming from even with the verses from Daniel, but I appreciate learning that that is a crucial date for JW's. Thanks for the information, may. I understand Daniel as one of the gems of the Apocalyptic style of writing.

Underhill · Dec 3, 2005

Perhaps this is a simplistic way to look at this. If the bible is imperfect in it's interpretation or you say large parts of the book arent litteraly correct isn't that a bit scary?

It's much like saying a rope bridge over a chasm you walk across every day has a few rotten boards but most of em are ok. You think.

joeboonda · Dec 3, 2005

Popeyesays said:
Too late! It slipped past you once, twice, three times.
622 AD, 1844 CE, 1863 CE - Islam, Babi and Baha`i. Each time was judgement day.

As a matter of fact did you know that the actual battle of Armaggedon was fought in 1917 within sight of Meggido and Carmel? General Allenby drove out the Turks from their last bastion in the area of Hiafa.

Regards,
Scott

My understanding is a bit different than many I suppose. I do not believe the catastrophic events described in revelation have happenned yet, thus the final battle of armageddon has not either, not the final one. Revelation describes one-fourth of the population, and one-third of the population, etc, etc, dying in the different judgements, which is a lot of folks, I have not seen that yet. But, end-time prophecy, well, its probably not good to debate among people with such varying religions, it is actually impossible. I won't go into it right now, I think I would get a big headache, lol.

Joeboonda

joeboonda · Dec 3, 2005

Of course everyone will believe that how they intrepret Scriptures, whether literal or figurative, is the truth. Why else would they believe such? We must all be open to the idea that what we believe could be completely wrong in God's eyes. But then, we won't know till we talk with Him.

Good point, I think in Proverbs is says somehting about how it is for Princes to search out a matter. I think we can learn a lot if we dig into the scripture, Sir Isaac Newton believed that in the latter days men would have an explosion of understanding of the end time prophecies. I think he may have been right.

Many good theologians have also illustrated inconsistancies in Scripture in relation to other contemporary writers. This doesn't negate the texts from being inspired. Who is the say that God did not make those inconsistancies on purpose to drive us to study deeper? Often He used pagans to further His Will.

Good point, I believe he has preserved his word for us though, as he said he would.

How do we know when Scripture is saying its not to be taken literal? Jesus did not state that He was going to be teaching in parables. He just said the parable and left it to the listeners to determine if it was literal or figurative. Scripture is no different and confuses us as much as Jesus' parables did the apostles.

True, there are some good rules of interpretation we should follow...

Leonardo da Vinci drew and described ideas that were strikingly similar to our modern war machines. Could not God have granted the same understanding to John?

Sure and I think John did an excellent job describing the events in the language of his day.

I studied the Premillenial view of the End with on open mind a while ago. I can see where it comes from, but I found it illogical when viewed in light of other Scripture. Scripture tends to explain itself in the context of history.

Yeah, and then I see it as quite logical, but hey, lol, that's alright. The OT makes it pretty clear that Satan has already been "cast" to the world throughout its wording.

I find the idea of THE antichrist interesting considering Paul often talked about the antichrist already being found in the early church (Early Gnosticism and Ebionitism, no offense meant toward those of those beliefs, were being referred to by Paul.) Paul and Peter also talked about the false prophet being present in the early church throughout their epistles

Yes, the SPIRIT of antichrist, through the false teachers of the day, like the gnostics and the like that had sprung out from among them, not THE antichrist.

The rapture idea is not present in Scripture when I searched for it.

The word rapture is not in the Bible, from a latin word. The greek word is Harpazo, used in I Thess. 4 where it refers to the church being 'caught up' to meet the Lord in the air. As opposed to the 2nd Coming where Christ come TO the earth, splitting the Mnt. of Olives with his feet.

I will have to look into that book thanks for the title

Yes, good book, you will see where I am coming from on a lot of things.
Thanks for your response!

Sincerely,

Joeboonda

Popeyesays · Dec 4, 2005

joeboonda said:
My understanding is a bit different than many I suppose. I do not believe the catastrophic events described in revelation have happenned yet, thus the final battle of armageddon has not either, not the final one. Revelation describes one-fourth of the population, and one-third of the population, etc, etc, dying in the different judgements, which is a lot of folks, I have not seen that yet. But, end-time prophecy, well, its probably not good to debate among people with such varying religions, it is actually impossible. I won't go into it right now, I think I would get a big headache, lol.

Joeboonda

If one counts the deaths from the world wide Spanish Influenza Epidemic 66,000,000 died as a resultof world war one. (Wikpedia, among others). The population was about 1.75 billion, so that's four per cent of the world population, but European nations were hit the hardest. In France by one year into the war, half the families in the country got a telegram from their war department telling them a son had died in the war.

Abdu'l Baha had beenwarning of this war since 1900, and when it was over immediately predicted that there would be another war even worse growing out of the Great War.

Abdu'l Baha revealed this prayer in 1916:
"REVEALED TO THE BAHÁ'ÍS OF THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA
O God, my God! Thou seest how black darkness is enshrouding all regions, how all countries are burning with the flame of dissension, and the fire of war and carnage is blazing throughout the East and the West. Blood is flowing, corpses bestrew the ground, and severed heads are fallen on the dust of the battlefield.
O Lord! Have pity on these ignorant ones, and look upon them with the eye of forgiveness and pardon. Extinguish this fire, so that these dense clouds which obscure the horizon may be scattered, the Sun of Reality shine forth with the rays of conciliation, this intense gloom be dispelled and the resplendent light of peace shed its radiance upon all countries.
O Lord! Draw up the people from the abyss of the ocean of hatred and enmity, and deliver them 181 from the impenetrable darkness. Unite their hearts, and brighten their eyes with the light of peace and reconciliation. Deliver them from the depths of war and bloodshed, and free them from the darkness of error. Remove the veil from their eyes, and enlighten their hearts with the light of guidance. Treat them with Thy tender mercy and compassion, and deal not with them according to Thy justice and wrath which cause the limbs of the mighty to quake.
O Lord! Wars have persisted. Distress and anxiety have waxed great, and every flourishing region is laid waste.
O Lord! Hearts are heavy, and souls are in anguish. Have mercy on these poor souls, and do not leave them to the excesses of their own desires.
O Lord! Make manifest in Thy lands humble and submissive souls, their faces illumined with the rays of guidance, severed from the world, extolling Thy Name, uttering Thy praise, and diffusing the fragrance of Thy holiness amongst mankind.
O Lord! Strengthen their backs, gird up their 182 loins, and enrapture their hearts with the most mighty signs of Thy love.
O Lord! Verily, they are weak, and Thou art the Powerful and the Mighty; they are impotent, and Thou art the Helper and the Merciful.
O Lord! The ocean of rebellion is surging, and these tempests will not be stilled save through Thy boundless grace which hath embraced all regions.
O Lord! Verily, the people are in the abyss of passion, and naught can save them but Thine infinite bounties.
O Lord! Dispel the darkness of these corrupt desires, and illumine the hearts with the lamp of Thy love through which all countries will erelong be enlightened. Confirm, moreover, Thy loved ones, those who, leaving their homelands, their families and their children, have, for the love of Thy Beauty, traveled to foreign countries to diffuse Thy fragrances and promulgate Thy Teachings. Be Thou their companion in their loneliness, their helper in a strange land, the remover of their sorrows, their comforter in calamity. Be Thou a refreshing draught for their thirst, 183 a healing medicine for their ills and a balm for the burning ardor of their hearts.
Verily, Thou art the Most Generous, the Lord of grace abounding, and, verily, Thou art the Compassionate and the Merciful."
- 'Abdu'l-Bahá
(Compilations, Baha'i Prayers, p. 182)

Regards,
Scott

may · Dec 4, 2005

Popeyesays said:
Too late! It slipped past you once, twice, three times.
622 AD, 1844 CE, 1863 CE - Islam, Babi and Baha`i. Each time was judgement day.

As a matter of fact did you know that the actual battle of Armaggedon was fought in 1917 within sight of Meggido and Carmel? General Allenby drove out the Turks from their last bastion in the area of Hiafa.

Regards,
Scott

yes there is a judgment day for the whole world . it will be the whole of the kings of the earth not just in litral jerusalem
The last book of the Bible, Revelation, records a vision of "the kings of the entire inhabited earth" being gathered together "to the war of the great day of God the Almighty" at "HarMagedon" ["Mountain of Megiddo"], or Armageddon. (Revelation 16:14, 16) Because of the similarity in names, some have concluded that this war will take place at the literal site of Megiddo. However, the mound of Megiddo hardly qualifies as a "mountain." Consider too: Is Megiddos valley big enough to accommodate all earths rulers together with their large armies and vast array of military equipment? "This is apocalyptic language," the International Standard Bible Encyclopedia tells us, "and it is possible that Armageddon is used not as a name for a particular locality but as a symbolic term for the final decisive conflict

What, then, is "HarMagedon"? It is obviously figurative. Drawing on Megiddos history as the site of decisive battles, Revelation uses it to picture the approaching situation when hatred for Gods people by "all the nations" will reach a climax. (Matthew 24:9, 14) Because true Christians continue loyally to support Gods Kingdom, earths rulers will unite and, in effect, "assemble" to destroy them

The Bible makes clear that those who do not take their stand with Jehovah God and his people are in real danger of losing life. (Zephaniah 2:3; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-9) Consequently, there is no time to delay! "Look! I am coming as a thief," warns the glorified Jesus Christ with specific reference to the climax of the "great tribulation" at Armageddon.Revelation 16:15; Matthew 24:21

Determining literal and figurative scripture

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