Hell

For a long time I've found this one of the more problematic teachings at least in the manner it was commonly presented to me. Always felt more attraction to say Buddhist understandings of hell rather than the common mainstream "God hates evil people so he decides to torture them for all eternity" conception of that state. Eventually through the writings of Jacob Boehme , Isaac the Syrian , Origen, and Clement of Alexandria I've come to an understanding that makes a little more sense to me. Each of them touched on a different aspect of the reality and their understandings seemed a little more reasonable than the common description.

So, in this conception heaven and hell are realities that we participate in here on earth all ready. After we die we simply take one or the other with us. The seed of heaven or hell grows to maturity and we experience it outwardly after death as if the soul were turned inside out.
In Isaac's view the hell we can experience after death is the bitter remorse brought on by being in the presence of the Light. Love is offered to all . Isaac of Syria also goes on to teach that hell is not everlasting but more like a purgatory of sorts and that even the devil and the demons will eventual be restored.

Origen and Clement of Alexandria also viewed hell more as a purgatory. Clement called the fire of hell a "wise flame" that purify people of the dross of sin. Origen looked forward to the restoration of all things or apokatastasis when God will be all in all and hell will be no more. I don't have any quotes from them on hand but maybe I'll come back and post em later.

How does hell work in you Abrahamic tradition?

Another quote form Isaac the Syrian on Gods mercy and His raising people from hell:

Mehr Licht said:

...
Origen and Clement of Alexandria also viewed hell more as a purgatory. Clement called the fire of hell a "wise flame" that purify people of the dross of sin. Origen looked forward to the restoration of all things or apokatastasis when God will be all in all and hell will be no more. I don't have any quotes from them on hand but maybe I'll come back and post em later.

How does hell work in you Abrahamic tradition?

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This, purgetory,is similar to one form of hell in Judaism.

We believe that after death, the soul remains with the body, remembering and regretting one's sins, for a period up to but not exceeding one year. That is why we traditionally wait a year before laying the headstone. A year might not seem like much, but without sleep or other distractions, and perfect recollection, it would seem like eternity. It's believed that this process takes a lot less than a year for the average person, a saint a very short time but for an evil person perhaps the entire year.

Then there is Final Judgment, where one might find oneself damned. However in this case there is no hell, but total and eternal destruction of the soul which is damned.

All in some opinions of Judaism, of course.

"God hates evil people so he decides to torture them for all eternity"

that is not true for any religion, no religion teaches that. those who will go to hell will so because of what they used to do, in other words they deserve it.

whatever seeds you plant in this life that's what kind of fruit you will harvest in the hear after.

We believe that after death, the soul remains with the body, remembering and regretting one's sins, for a period up to but not exceeding one year. That is why we traditionally wait a year before laying the headstone. A year might not seem like much, but without sleep or other distractions, and perfect recollection, it would seem like eternity. It's believed that this process takes a lot less than a year for the average person, a saint a very short time but for an evil person perhaps the entire year.

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I've never heard that before. Fascinating.

that is not true for any religion, no religion teaches that

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I would hope that's the case but a lot of the things I've seen people write on the subject point in that direction. That God sends evil people to hell to glorify himself and that he doesn't love the people who experience it. Some folks even talk about those in heaven viewing the people suffering in hell and say that this brings them pleasure and they enjoy heaven all the more because of it.

Mehr Licht said:

I would hope that's the case but a lot of the things I've seen people write on the subject point in that direction. That God sends evil people to hell to glorify himself and that he doesn't love the people who experience it. Some folks even talk about those in heaven viewing the people suffering in hell and say that this brings them pleasure and they enjoy heaven all the more because of it.

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anyone who has said such things is ignorant of their religion. God has created us from nothing, he loves us more than a mother loves her child. in my religion we believe that anyone who sincerely turns to God and asks for forgiveness he will be forgiven. God does not hate those who sin and so he will send them to hell, the people he will send to hell are those who have worked to gain it (ie someone who committed many evils out of their own desires)

i'd like you to read the following taken from the site below:

Mercy of Allah: A lecture by Shaykh Zulfiqar Ahmad(db)

Allah is extremely merciful. An idol worshipper used to worship an idol named Sanam. He sat up calling the name “Ya Sanam” all night, and towards the dawn he started getting drowsy and so he mistakenly took one of the Glorious Names of Allah, “Ya Samad.” Allah immediately turned His attention and asked, “What do you want My servant?” The angels said in astonishment, “O Allah, this is an idol worshipper and only took Your Name in forgetfulness.” Allah said, “This person calls on these idols all night and they don’t answer him. What difference is there between Me and the idols if I don’t answer him either?”

Allah wants us to seek forgiveness and come towards Him. Hadith says that the Messenger of Allah was traveling and stopped on the way at a village. A woman was cooking at a fire nearby and he noticed that she constantly had to push her child back who would come forward. She said to the Prophet, “I work with this fire all day, my son wants to play with it but I have to push him back all the time because I’m frightened for him. If Allah loves us more than we love our children, how can He put us in Hell?”

Hearing this the Messenger of Allah sat with his head bowed and his eyes filled with tears. He cried for some time and then said, “Allah does not want to send His creation into Hell, but it is man himself who buys Hell for himself through his disobedience to Allah. He forgets where he has come from and who his Caretaker is. He does not seek forgiveness from his Creator.”

eselam said:

"God hates evil people so he decides to torture them for all eternity"

that is not true for any religion, no religion teaches that. those who will go to hell will so because of what they used to do, in other words they deserve it.

whatever seeds you plant in this life that's what kind of fruit you will harvest in the hear after.

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excellent i agree it.

I would suggest that for Baha'is anyway hell is not the "place" of torment that is viewed traditionally in literature or beliefs...

The following are some selections from the Baha'i Writings on the subject of hell..

"They say: 'Where is Paradise, and where is Hell?' Say: 'The one is reunion with Me; the other thine own self, O thou who dost associate a partner with God and doubtest."

~ Baha'u'llah, Epistle to the Son of the Wolf, p. 132


"Think ye of love and good fellowship as the delights of heaven, think ye of hostility and hatred as the torments of hell."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 245


"Be ye a rich treasure to every indigent one; consider love and union as a delectable paradise, and count annoyance and hostility as the torment of hell-fire."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 356

"Light must be spread afar, so that, in the school of humanity, all may acquire the heavenly characteristics of the spirit, and see for themselves beyond any doubt that there is no fiercer hell, no more fiery abyss, than to possess a character that is evil and unsound; no more darksome pit nor loathsome torment than to show forth qualities which deserve to be condemned."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Selections from the Writings of Abdu'l-Baha, p. 136

So in our belief "hell" is more a spiritual condition of being alienated from God

The people on this forum seem much more sensible than some of the folks on a few other forums I've been too. I've enjoyed reading all the responses.

Thank you Mehr this is a good forums and the people are nice.

I really like that quote, and think there is great wisdom in it (though I don't believe in a literal hell). But doesn't that mean that only those who have goodness and sensitivity in their souls, deep down, can experience hell? The worst of people might harm others all day long and not feel a shred of remorse. What about psychopaths?

Psychopaths feeling remorse in terms of this quote?

those who are tormented in hell are tormented by the invasion of love. What is there more bitter and violent than the pains of love? Those who feel they have sinned against love bear in themselves a damnation much heavier than the most dreaded punishments.

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It's hard to say. I would assume something that powerful could effect anyone even a person with a very weak conscience who might otherwise be immune to excessive remorse regarding his or her actions.

Zardoz said:

This, purgetory,is similar to one form of hell in Judaism.

We believe ...

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Perhaps "some believe" would be far more accurate.

Mehr Licht said:

Psychopaths feeling remorse in terms of this quote?

It's hard to say. I would assume something that powerful could effect anyone even a person with a very weak conscience who might otherwise be immune to excessive remorse regarding his or her actions.

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Quite possibly. Though it would seem as if it would still punish them less than those who still did wrong, but had enough goodness in them to hate the fact they did it.

It's an interesting thought nonetheless - we see microcosms of this playing out in everyday life. The greatest punishments almost always come from within...

The greatest punishments almost always come from within

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I think your right on that. It took me along time to realize that though. It's easy to blame your suffering on everyone but yourself. A very large percentage of it is self generated though. When you take a look in the mirror so to speak and practice even a little bit of introspection it just jumps out at you and one has to deal with that reality eventually. I often deal with it by ignoring it or seeking distractions unfortunately.

I´ve put this in more than a thread about heaven already, but I think this might be of the ones it is most relevant in (I just love the story)


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The old monk sat by the side of the road. With his eyes closed, his legs crossed and his hands folded in his lap, he sat. In deep meditation, he sat.

Suddenly his zazen was interrupted by the harsh and demanding voice of a samurai warrior. "Old man! Teach me about heaven and hell!"

At first, as though he had not heard, there was no perceptible response from the monk. But gradually he began to open his eyes, the faintest hint of a smile playing around the corners of his mouth as the samurai stood there, waiting impatiently, growing more and more agitated with each passing second.

"You wish to know the secrets of heaven and hell?" replied the monk at last. "You who are so unkempt. You whose hands and feet are covered with dirt. You whose hair is uncombed, whose breath is foul, whose sword is all rusty and neglected. You who are ugly and whose mother dresses you funny. You would ask me of heaven and hell?"

The samurai uttered a vile curse. He drew his sword and raised it high above his head. His face turned to crimson and the veins on his neck stood out in bold relief as he prepared to sever the monk's head from its shoulders.

"That is hell," said the old monk gently, just as the sword began its descent. In that fraction of a second, the samurai was overcome with amazement, awe, compassion and love for this gentle being who had dared to risk his very life to give him such a teaching. He stopped his sword in mid-flight and his eyes filled with grateful tears.

"And that," said the monk, "is heaven."

Me Myself, wonderful story. It clearly shows how heaven and hell manifest themselves right here and now. Wrath and hatred manifesting hell and compassion manifesting heaven.

I was reading something similar in a book today " Wisdoms Children, A Christian Esoteric Tradition" by Arthur Versluis. Witting on the Christian theosophy of Boehme :

I was re-reading "Meditations on the Tarot, A Journey into Christian Hermeticism" today and came across an intresting chapter on hell. He posits that the term "eternal" isn't being used to describe a length of time or even an unending length of time:

Then he says this about Gethsemane and Origen. One of the most powerful teachings in the book :