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I'd Like to Ask a Question or A Few Questions

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
I'm always offended by your questions. Always.



There will always be some folks who hate Christians as a whole. I think they are being very foolish. Hating all Christians is no less a matter of unwarranted prejudice than reflexively hating all Blacks, etc. But there will always be fools in this world.


RIGHT ON.

And I'd go a bit further and say that those who say, "I don't hate Christians - some of my best friends are Christians!" sound a bit much like Archie Bunker.

Whenever we demonize an entire group of individuals on the basis of religion, race, creed, gender, sexual orientation, age, or disability we launch off into some pretty murky moral water.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
As a parent, I don't mind when my kids ask me "why" and I don't believe God minds when I ask Him "Why?" either.

I do, on a regular basis.

that isn't the point though...

if a christian knows it was a part of gods plan that a sociopath affected their life...why ask why? that is the problem i'm talking about.

why not ask why...?
because one already knows why...it was a part of gods plan.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
that isn't the point though...

if a christian knows it was a part of gods plan that a sociopath affected their life...why ask why? that is the problem i'm talking about.

why not ask why...?
because one already knows why...it was a part of gods plan.

That must be your idea of how belief works. It's not mine.

I've had a lot of tragedy and grief in my life, some of it self imposed and some of it apparently "random." Do you think my faith hasn't been tested or I haven't asked God "why?"

I've sat on top of my washer in my basement (because I had to sit on it to get it to work - another story involving a very tight budget but I digress), with tears streaming down my face, shaking my fist in God's face and screaming "Why? WHY does my child have to suffer? WHY NOT ME INSTEAD?"

It's a long story, and I don't care to go into it all right now because I'm headed out the door, but let's just say that I got my answer. Maybe not the answer I wanted, and maybe not in my preferred time, but I am at peace about it.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
That must be your idea of how belief works. It's not mine.

I've had a lot of tragedy and grief in my life, some of it self imposed and some of it apparently "random." Do you think my faith hasn't been tested or I haven't asked God "why?"

I've sat on top of my washer in my basement (because I had to sit on it to get it to work - another story involving a very tight budget but I digress), with tears streaming down my face, shaking my fist in God's face and screaming "Why? WHY does my child have to suffer? WHY NOT ME INSTEAD?"

It's a long story, and I don't care to go into it all right now because I'm headed out the door, but let's just say that I got my answer. Maybe not the answer I wanted, and maybe not in my preferred time, but I am at peace about it.

but you know why...it was part of gods plan.
and that seems to be the answer you are looking for.

for me, when i face tragedy i don't ask why...because there is no why...
and what gives me any sense of regret was by taking the here and now for granted... i've had close relatives die from cancer... and i did all i could to let them know what they mean to me...and when they died..of course i was sad but i wasn't confused...and i don't ask why...because it is the way it is.
 

ChristineES

Tiggerism
Premium Member
but you know why...it was part of gods plan.
and that seems to be the answer you are looking for.

for me, when i face tragedy i don't ask why...because there is no why...
and what gives me any sense of regret was by taking the here and now for granted... i've had close relatives die from cancer... and i did all i could to let them know what they mean to me...and when they died..of course i was sad but i wasn't confused...and i don't ask why...because it is the way it is.

If that is what you do, that is fine for you. But we all have different ways of dealing with things. We all have different ways of seeing and reacting to things. We can't all do things the same way.
When my son was diagnosed with autism, I prayed to God "Lord, why is my son the one with autism?" and went on and on. That was childish and I have since repented and now I see my son as a wonderful gift. But that is the way I dealt with it. Other parents of autistic children do and feel things differently.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
but you know why...it was part of gods plan.
and that seems to be the answer you are looking for.

for me, when i face tragedy i don't ask why...because there is no why...
and what gives me any sense of regret was by taking the here and now for granted... i've had close relatives die from cancer... and i did all i could to let them know what they mean to me...and when they died..of course i was sad but i wasn't confused...and i don't ask why...because it is the way it is.

Yes, we see things differently. I don't believe that there is no "why." I believe life and events have a purpose.

I believe it is part of my life's purpose to learn from events, so that I can help others when they go thru something similar, or at the least so that I gain wisdom. Once I realized this, I realized that I don't want to waste a single learning experience.

So I always ask "Why?" And then I make applications to my life. This mindset has really been helpful during times of great stress. It grounds me and helps keep me calm and objective.

It works for me.
 

uu_sage

Active Member
Speaking as a liberal Christian myself my issue is not with my brothers and sisters in Christ nor is it with the body of Christ. My issue is with the way how Christian faith has been horribly applied but especially in America. My heart breaks when my brothers and sisters in Christ misuse scripture as a weapon against many people including women, LGBT people, people of different religions, persons of color or against more liberal Christians like myself) I get frustrated when people misuse the names of God and Christ to justify hatred, injustice, intolerance, dogmatism and exclusion. It makes me sick in my stomach to hear of churches that won't defend basic human rights including freedom of religion, of churches that violate the American tradition of separation of church and state or churches that drag themselves into the sins of nationalism and blind patriotism. The God I serve and worship is the God of all peoples no matter who they are or where they find themselves on the journey of faith. The God I serve and love is a God that creates all humankind in the divine image and holds them all in radical grace and love. The Jesus I follow is the one who says, "My kingdom is not of this world", to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. The Jesus who sat and associated with prostitutes, tax collectors and other social undesirables, the one who tells us to forgive and love our enemies, to give everything we have to the poor, to deny ourselves, to take up our cross and follow him. The Jesus who taught that the Kingdom of God is in our midst and that following in the prophets who came before him we are called to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with God.
 

Kerr

Well-Known Member
I am hoping that no one is offended or irritated with my question. It used to be said all the time "I don't hate Christians, I just hate their faith". But lately, not with everyone but with a few people I am wondering this "Do you dislike only the Christian faith or do you also dislike Christians as well?" As I said, there are plenty of people who just don't like the Christian faith, but lately I get the feeling that there may be a few who dislike, even hate, Christians, as well. Not only that, think that all Christians are alike- all fundamentalist, all take the Bible 100% literal, etc.

I hope I am wrong about it, really. There are a lot of good things about the Christian faith. There are a lot of Good people who follow the Christian faith. I am not going to say that just because someone is a Christian means that they are good people. I wouldn't say that anymore than I would say that atheists are bad just because they are atheists. I dislike generalizations and stereotypes.
I dont hate or dislike Christians or Christian faith.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I may be wrong, but I think it's more that you don't care when you don't have a sense of "ownership" of the culture.

I've heard you throw the phrase "don't mess with Texas" around here more than once. In many cases, Christianity - and even moderate Christianity - "messes with" the places that non-Christians feel a sense of ownership in.

For instance, here in Ontario (as well as other provinces in Canada), we have taxpayer-funded Catholic schools. I see this as contrary to the idea of secularism and equality before the law, two things I place great value in myself. I also have a MAJOR problem with my tax dollars going toward an educational system that teaches children things like "homosexuals are disordered".

Now... the demand for these schools doesn't primarily come from hardcore "fundamentalist" Catholics. Most of the kids in these schools are put there by parents who are only nominally Catholic themselves, don't go to mass that often, and in many cases individually voice their support for things like availability of contraception and same-sex marriage. However, their conduct enables these objectionable things to keep going - if every moderate Catholic moved their kids from Catholic schools to public schools, most Catholic schools wouldn't have the enrollment to sustain themselves.

So... to tie this all back to the OP: that's an example of why I still have an issue with even moderate "progressive" Christians. They may say things in favour of things I think are positive, but they often undermine what they say with what they do by supporting the institutions they do, and as a result enable everything from the merely negative to the downright evil.

You know how you wouldn't like it for people to "mess with Texas"? Religion - even moderate religion - messes with the place that I call home and the things I care about.

It seems to me that no matter how tolerant or open-minded a religious person may be, the mere fact that they adhere to their religion will ensure that someone will raise their hand in objection.

Let's take the Catholics you are talking about as an example. From what you have said, I gather that they are in support of a secular state, don't force their beliefs on others in any way, and don't even care that much about preaching their religion to others. Yet they will still be criticized - and don't take this
the wrong way; there is nothing wrong with criticism when it is justified - just for their choice of which school to send their children to. Why does it matter what education they choose to grant their children as long as it doesn't affect anybody?

That is also exactly why I think people shouldn't give up on what they believe in to try to satisfy others; fingers will still be pointed at them no matter how hard they try to placate others' views. And another question arises at this point: how would you react if a religious person objected you sending your children to a nonreligious school or exempting them from religious studies classes? Wouldn't you think it is a violation of your basic personal freedoms?
 

Enlighten

Well-Known Member
Speaking as a liberal Christian myself my issue is not with my brothers and sisters in Christ nor is it with the body of Christ. My issue is with the way how Christian faith has been horribly applied but especially in America. My heart breaks when my brothers and sisters in Christ misuse scripture as a weapon against many people including women, LGBT people, people of different religions, persons of color or against more liberal Christians like myself) I get frustrated when people misuse the names of God and Christ to justify hatred, injustice, intolerance, dogmatism and exclusion. It makes me sick in my stomach to hear of churches that won't defend basic human rights including freedom of religion, of churches that violate the American tradition of separation of church and state or churches that drag themselves into the sins of nationalism and blind patriotism. The God I serve and worship is the God of all peoples no matter who they are or where they find themselves on the journey of faith. The God I serve and love is a God that creates all humankind in the divine image and holds them all in radical grace and love. The Jesus I follow is the one who says, "My kingdom is not of this world", to love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength. The Jesus who sat and associated with prostitutes, tax collectors and other social undesirables, the one who tells us to forgive and love our enemies, to give everything we have to the poor, to deny ourselves, to take up our cross and follow him. The Jesus who taught that the Kingdom of God is in our midst and that following in the prophets who came before him we are called to do justice, love mercy and walk humbly with God.

I'm not a Christian, but wow this deserves a frubal. Great post :clap and this is why I will never lump all Christian's into the one bracket!
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It seems to me that no matter how tolerant or open-minded a religious person may be, the mere fact that they adhere to their religion will ensure that someone will raise their hand in objection.

Let's take the Catholics you are talking about as an example. From what you have said, I gather that they are in support of a secular state, don't force their beliefs on others in any way, and don't even care that much about preaching their religion to others. Yet they will still be criticized - and don't take this
the wrong way; there is nothing wrong with criticism when it is justified - just for their choice of which school to send their children to. Why does it matter what education they choose to grant their children as long as it doesn't affect anybody?
But it does affect me. I, like all other taxpayers here, pay for these schools. Not only do the schools run counter to the idea of equality under the law that I feel is very important, the fact that we have this parallel school system creates massive amounts of waste through duplication; the most recent estimate I've seen says that this arrangement costs us an extra $750 million to $1 billion per year.

This money could be put to all sorts of good uses. For instance, many parts of this province have a shortage of doctors. If some of that money was put into recruitment of doctors for rural areas, it could have huge benefits in terms of lives saved and quality of life for the people in these areas.

The same holds true with preferential tax treatment for religions: every dollar given to a social club in the form of a tax deduction represents a dollar that can't be used for other good purposes.

That is also exactly why I think people shouldn't give up on what they believe in to try to satisfy others; fingers will still be pointed at them no matter how hard they try to placate others' views. And another question arises at this point: how would you react if a religious person objected you sending your children to a nonreligious school or exempting them from religious studies classes? Wouldn't you think it is a violation of your basic personal freedoms?

I think there are two basic personal rights/freedoms in play:

- the right to a basic education.
- the right to receive government services free from proselytization and discrimination on the basis of religion.

If a non-theist (or a theist of a minority religion) is only given the option of a religious school, then his or her rights are violated. OTOH, no rights are violated for a theist if his or her only public school option is religiously neutral, because getting your religious instruction paid for by the state isn't a right, IMO.

And I disagree with you when you say that people will always complain. If we had an arrangement where religion and religious organizations were treated fairly, I'd stop complaining... but we're not there yet.
 

jtartar

Well-Known Member
I am hoping that no one is offended or irritated with my question. It used to be said all the time "I don't hate Christians, I just hate their faith". But lately, not with everyone but with a few people I am wondering this "Do you dislike only the Christian faith or do you also dislike Christians as well?" As I said, there are plenty of people who just don't like the Christian faith, but lately I get the feeling that there may be a few who dislike, even hate, Christians, as well. Not only that, think that all Christians are alike- all fundamentalist, all take the Bible 100% literal, etc.

I hope I am wrong about it, really. There are a lot of good things about the Christian faith. There are a lot of Good people who follow the Christian faith. I am not going to say that just because someone is a Christian means that they are good people. I wouldn't say that anymore than I would say that atheists are bad just because they are atheists. I dislike generalizations and stereotypes.

ChristineES,
If TRUE Christianity were really like what people today are, who CLAIM to be Christian, I would hate Christianity also.
By the process of Syncretism, what is called Christianity has been adulterated, so that none of the foundation beliefs of Christendom can be suppported by Bible truth.
What is written Romans 2:23,24, has come true with respect to Chrisendom. They have caused God's name to be BLASPHEMED, because of their actions.
Just stop to consider Christendom, for a minute. The United States calims to be a Christion nation, but think, which nation in the world has the most crime? the most immorality? the most wars? the most cruelty? murdering millions of babies before they are born. Truely this nation has caused the other nations of this world to BLASPHEME the NAME of God, JEHOVAH, because of their actions.
Several prophecies of the Bible seem to indicate that God is going to, utterly destroy the United States, for it's actions, Dan 2:44, 7:8-11, Rev 19:19-21.
 

SageTree

Spiritual Friend
Premium Member
ohhh finding yourself in the doctrine?

Yea man.... self locating.... finding a voice in the language of reverence...

Not getting hung up on exact meanings as you're told, but rather finding a way to make the words speak to your present situation.

I'm a Unitarian within the Christian world, but Trinitarianism is the language often used in Worship... so I find a way to understand and find Unitarian understanding of the Trinity, for instance.

Doesn't make me a trinitarian, makes me a unitarian who can speak Trinit-ese.
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
But it does affect me. I, like all other taxpayers here, pay for these schools. Not only do the schools run counter to the idea of equality under the law that I feel is very important, the fact that we have this parallel school system creates massive amounts of waste through duplication; the most recent estimate I've seen says that this arrangement costs us an extra $750 million to $1 billion per year.

This money could be put to all sorts of good uses. For instance, many parts of this province have a shortage of doctors. If some of that money was put into recruitment of doctors for rural areas, it could have huge benefits in terms of lives saved and quality of life for the people in these areas.

The same holds true with preferential tax treatment for religions: every dollar given to a social club in the form of a tax deduction represents a dollar that can't be used for other good purposes.

Why should these schools be considered "less important" than other services, though? I can understand where you are coming from when you speak of them running against equality, but they are very important to a lot of people. You can't propose shutting them down unless they clearly violate a constitutional law.

Though I agree with you that they should pay equal tax money, and there really shouldn't be any exemptions for them just because they operate under a religious banner.

I think there are two basic personal rights/freedoms in play:

- the right to a basic education.
- the right to receive government services free from proselytization and discrimination on the basis of religion.

If a non-theist (or a theist of a minority religion) is only given the option of a religious school, then his or her rights are violated. OTOH, no rights are violated for a theist if his or her only public school option is religiously neutral, because getting your religious instruction paid for by the state isn't a right, IMO.

True, but then canceling religious schools to minimize costs would be unfair to those who want their children to have religious education in a non-governmental outlet. If full freedoms are granted to every person, that would have to include the right of education as well.

And I disagree with you when you say that people will always complain. If we had an arrangement where religion and religious organizations were treated fairly, I'd stop complaining... but we're not there yet.

The way you worded it, it sounded like you had objections against all religion, "even moderate religion". Certainly "moderate religion" wouldn't infringe on constitutional rights?
 
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