Vile Atheist
Loud and Obnoxious
Do you not have minimum wage laws in your country?
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Does the god who supposedly created this world deserve to be worshipped?
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Do you not have minimum wage laws in your country?
kerravon
Anti-subjugator
Yes, and unemployment benefits to cover the side-effect of that.
Vile Atheist
Loud and Obnoxious
It is better for fewer people to be employed but make a living wage than for there to be almost no employment and everyone barely makes enough to eat, if that. Disposable income is what allows people to consume and ultimately create more jobs and drive the economy.
JMorris
Democratic Socialist
we dont all value our lives so little as to spend it studying a book about a fictional hate filled ego-maniac.
I just explained that.
Slavery was a fact of life in the ancient world. I don't know if there was a single culture that forbade it. Considering that, a culture with a set of laws requiring humane treatment of slaves would probably be the closest thing to a progressive culture that anyone would have a right to hope to find from that period.
We can look back, as I said, from our comfortable 21st century 1st world lives and shake our heads at the fact that they were even practicing slavery---in exactly the same way we can look down our noses at all the ancient people hacking each other to pieces with axes and swords---and feel smug and self-righteous about the fact that we're not doing any of that now.
but we can only do that if:
A. We completely ignore all the atrocities and human rights violations still going on in our own time, and
B. Flat out refuse to put ourselves in their place.
"B" is why I asked one of the other people in this thread what they would have done about the slavery issue if he were a member of one of the Hebrew tribes in the year 1200 BCE. (and you'll notice, he didn't answer that).
Putting ourselves in their place, even with our self-perceived sense of advanced and enlightened morality and civility, what would any of us done if we were to find ourselves a member of that time, place, and people?
In order to be able to honestly answer that question a person would have to make an honest effort to understand the people, culture, conditions, and circumstances of those people. Anyone who isn't willing to do that isn't, IMO, entitled to an opinion about any of it (or at least an opinion that they should expect to be taken seriously).
If we're going to compare ourselves to anybody, it's on us to make an honest effort to understand both parties.
Vile Atheist
Loud and Obnoxious
So was murder.
That's irrelevant. The fact that it still goes on today does not mean that it becomes uncondemnable. I condemn it in the past and I condemn it in the present.
The fact that it may have been convenient and even widely-accepted in those days is irrelevant as to whether or not we can condemn it. It's still wrong.
And if I were on the auction block, I would much rather go home wioth someone who was living under a set of laws to ensure my well being and fair treatment.
I don't think it is, except in the sense that I think everything else is too. Do you? If not, how is that relevant to this discussion?
Well then obviously you're a much more enlightened and moral person than any of the ancients were. Congratulations. :yes:
OK, I think we get it: you're not a big fan of the Bible.
Um, yes.
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
When life expectancy is low the only retirement is kids. Most cultures this means a male child. They must have a lot so at least one male child will survive. So as living standards come up and women are providing education the numbers of births go down.
False read the site. I already disproved this argument.
No reason to get mad. I am capable of having a civilized conversation are you ?
The West is not so Innocent, much of the aid you talk about was given to 3 world tyrants during the cold war. These countries are a wash with debt. We over threw many legitimate states and put in petty tyrants. This is the past. We no longer engage in this type of thing, but the poor are still paying the price.
Also look at the over all system. Lets just look at one example. Every country must sell all their grain and food supplies to a big company like monsanto if they want to play on the worlds stage. If not it will not be registered in their GNP. Then they must buy it back at a much higher price. This hurts the poor in every country. It creates much higher prices.
kerravon
Anti-subjugator
Yes, for a man-made book, that's probably all you can expect. ie it's a man-made book, not from God.
We aren't ignoring all the atrocities in human rights violations going on in our time. We have laws against that and a police force tasked with stopping them.
Compare that to legalized, allegedly God-ordained, slavery.
We can put ourselves in their place. And realise that if we were ignorant goat-herders like them, we'd probably have done the same thing. ie the bible was written by ignorant goat-herders, not God.
I did answer it. Hopefully others noticed even if you can't give an honest comment about something easily verifiable.
Be an abolitionist, to the best of our ability.
We do honestly understand that the bible was written by ignorant goat-herders, not God.
Again, we perfecty understand what ignorant goat-herders got up to. It's you that is unable to even accurately comment on easily verifiable data that happened an hour ago, nevermind 2000 years ago.
But it has nothing to do with what a Hebrew tribesman would do, it's all about what an omnipotent god did, allegedly provided a law for the humane treatment of slaves. Why not just flick a switch and make it impossible for anyone in the world to own a slave or be a slave.
kerravon
Anti-subjugator
They do make enough to eat. If they didn't, they would be dead, and the alleged problem would have solved itself. They make enough to eat and more, which is how they manage to breed like rabbits.
Capitalism is what allows people to drag themselves out of poverty, not legislated wages.
Uh huh. but even back then murder was recognized as something that ran counter to the interests of the society. Slavery wasn't seen that way.
Do you think that the laws that showed up in the Old Testament were put there solely because someone thought they were philosophically moral?
They were put there for the purposes of regulating a society.
Slavery, in that time and place, wasn't seen as counter to the interests of that society.
No, but it does mean that we're being a bit hypocritical by pointing to a fault in someone else when we have the same fault.
You can't do anything about the past. Pointing at a society that no longer exists and going "For shame" doesn't accomplish anything other than making ourselves feel superior.
There's a difference between "convenient " and necessary. Also a difference between "universally practiced" and "widely accepted".
It was a fact of life in that time and place. They aren't morally accountable for it because they didn't see it as immoral.
Of course. We can condemn anything. All you have to do is point a finger at it.
Writing our own book of absolute moral truisms are we? In that case, I retract my recommendation that you ever try to put yourself in anyone else's place. That would just get in your way.
If you consider the Old Testament Laws the word of God, or expect me to, then there's no way we're going to be able to have a conversation about any of this.
Vile Atheist
Loud and Obnoxious
Yeah...how's that working out so far?
kerravon
Anti-subjugator
I'd much rather God came down and outlawed slavery.
It was a point brought up in this thread.
Right. Most of us are, with our modern understanding.
Right. The authorization of slavery shows that it is clearly not the word of God, unless God is evil or some other similar explanation.
In actual fact, I'm in the "similar explanation" camp.
kerravon
Anti-subjugator
Very well compared to every alternative ever tried. Taiwan and South Korea are good examples of what can be achieved in a very short time.
Didn't realize that's what we were arguing about. I could have saved you some time.
Already did. you ignored most of what I had to say there.
I must have missed it then. Usually in these circumstances the considerate thing to do is to copy the post number so the other person can access it without having to search for it.
Since you didn't, I'l go look again.
So you'd be running around the camps of the ancient Hebrew tribes telling everyone to free their slaves?
Like I said, obviously you're much more enlightened and moral than any of the ancients were. too bad for the slaves of that time that you were born so much later.
*sigh*
Like I said, I'll go look. I would certainly hate to miss any of your posts.
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