Vile Atheist
Loud and Obnoxious
I am aware. Wanting to end sweatshops does not mean I want those people to suffer in poverty. There are more options than just "Working in sweatshops" and "Go hungry".
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Does the god who supposedly created this world deserve to be worshipped?
- Thread starter arcanum
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I am aware. Wanting to end sweatshops does not mean I want those people to suffer in poverty. There are more options than just "Working in sweatshops" and "Go hungry".
I've changed my mind, J. I'm actually in favor of you going and whining at God now. :yes:
Vile Atheist
Loud and Obnoxious
I'm not making any of those arguments. It's better for our economies if these sweatshops don't exist. If people in the Third World have disposable income via working for a fair wage, their economies do a lot better and their quality of life increases. I don't have the power to "let any slaves go", so yes, slavery would still exist under cruel slave-owners.
Sure, Wal-Mart won't be as cheap, but there would probably be more jobs created here if the alternative of paying some poor person in another country pennies per hour doesn't exist.
Nor am I making any arguments to justify slavery, as the ancient Hebrews did. I'd rather it didn't exist.
kerravon
Anti-subjugator
Claiming that low wages is the same as slavery was never going to be very promising.
There are people in non-OPEC nations who are living under constant oppression too. My point is that it has nothing to do with oil. If you want to free the world, you won't get any objections from me. I was a big supporter of the Iraq war.
Yes it is. Because if you are a slave in that circumstance you know that at least there is a police force assigned to try to rescue you, instead of a police force on the side of the enslaver. And if the enslavers get caught, you will receive justice. Under legal slavery, there is no justice for slaves.
Totally false. They do have rights and a police force has been tasked with enforcing those rights. The police aren't perfect, but at least they try.
Completely false. Neither exploitation nor slavery are the pillars of capitalism. Capitalism is a natural phenomenon as people make mutually beneficial trades on the free market.
When I look at ourselves we have done a damn sight better job than the bible, which authorizes slavery. Our secular laws are far superior to anything the bible has (including stoning your own children to death if they are disobedient).
Yes it is.
Yes.
Perhaps you should take your own advice. You seem to be completely ignorant of the basis for capitalism. Hint - it doesn't rely on slavery.
With my current understanding of human rights, or if I was an ignorant goat-herder like everyone else? With my current understanding I would be an abolitionist, just as I wish to abolish dictators today. But alone I do not have the strength to enforce my policies, so (just like with Iraq) I would do my best to win in the free marketplace of ideas, within whatever constraints being imposed. Note that since I live in Australia where my freedom of speech is reasonably well protected, I was able to argue the case for the Iraq war without any inhibition, which was very nice.
Thank you Mr Marx.
Red herring. You don't recognize that you are a victim of Soviet propaganda and drinking indefinitely in it.
JMorris
Democratic Socialist
I'll wine at my unicorn buddy instead. its prettier.
you go praise your deity for blessing you so much, and others so little.
kerravon
Anti-subjugator
Yes, and those options are not as good as working in a sweatshop, otherwise they would have already chosen that alternative. The sweatshop is the best job available to them, not the worst.
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
Yes we are.
To visualize world consumption patterns, it is helpful to divide human population into three distinct classes: the poor, the middle class, and the "consumer class." The poorest fifth of world population-over one billion people-live in abject poverty, surviving on less than a dollar per day. The vast middle class-60 percent of world population-have most of their basic food, shelter and water needs met, live in modest homes with lights, radios, and sometimes a refrigerator and a clothes washer, but own few material possessions and virtually no luxury items. Individuals in this group earn between $700 and $7,500 per person per year, very low by the standards of the industrial world.
The remaining 20 percent are the "consumer class." Included in this class are most North Americans, West Europeans, Japanese, and Australians, and the oil sheikdoms of the Middle East, as well as smaller percentages of the population of other regions. This 20 percent is responsible for the vast majority of ecological impacts associated with consumption.
The difference between consumption as practiced in the industrial world and consumption in the developing world is rather astounding: the one fifth of global population living in the highest-income countries account for 86 percent of private consumption expenditures. The poorest fifth account for a little over 1 percent.
Why Consumption Matters - Sustainable Consumption - Sierra Club
As it turns out if every person on the earth lived like an American it would take 4 earth sized planets to provide the resources.
All done with you. :yes:
Let me know if you ever come up with a more interesting argument than "I'm right because I say so and you're wrong because I say so".
I was just going to do that, thanks. :yes:
Wannabe Yogi
Well-Known Member
This is true. But.....
Nelson Mandela has said if he had done right by the poor all capital would have left his country. The worlds economic system is set up to enrich the well off.
To me it is not an either or problem what about paying a living wage. Its real low in a poor country.
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Vile Atheist
Loud and Obnoxious
The other options I was talking about involve labour laws in those countries to ensure fairer wages and better working conditions.
Thought you already said it doesn't.
OK, here's the point that I think you're missing: the laws in the bible aren't there to "condone" slavery. They aren't there to make excuses for slavery. Slavery was a fact of life in that time and place and those laws were there to ensure humane treatment of slaves. Period.
If someone is going to try and use those laws to cast a bad reflection on the bible, they're going to have to ignore all of the above in order to do it.
kerravon
Anti-subjugator
No we're not.
Yes, these are the ones breeding like rabbits, having children they can't afford, and then turning around and blaming the West who does nothing more than trade and provide aid.
And if there weren't so many people in the first place, it wouldn't.
America is not responsible for the 3rd world making a complete ****-up of their societies. This constant blaming of the innocent West is one of the things holding back actually solving the problem, because of misdirected blame.
JMorris
Democratic Socialist
Thought you already said it doesn't.
OK, here's the point that I think you're missing: the laws in the bible aren't there to "condone" slavery. They aren't there to make excuses for slavery. Slavery was a fact of life in that time and place and those laws were there to ensure humane treatment of slaves. Period.
If someone is going to try and use those laws to cast a bad reflection on the bible, they're going to have to ignore all of the above in order to do it.
no one has to try to cast a bad reflection on the bible. a cursory skimming through the bible does that on its own. it has laws regulating slaving, none prohibiting it. bad reflection.
kerravon
Anti-subjugator
They are exactly there to condone slavery (at least from the nations around you). The bible states that you may buy slaves from there.Thought you already said it doesn't.
OK, here's the point that I think you're missing: the laws in the bible aren't there to "condone" slavery.
Any book that was truly from God would not have been condoning slavery from the nations around you, and then saying to treat the slaves humanely. It would call for the abolition of slavery as one of the 10 commandments. Instead of wasting time with something as stupid as "you must keep the sabbath holy" etc.
Um, no.
kerravon
Anti-subjugator
Again, you think wages are a mere matter of legislation, rather than being set by the free market. To date that always ends in tears.
kerravon
Anti-subjugator
Setting up an alternative to capitalism isn't "doing right by the poor".
The world's economic system is a purely natural phenomenon, not actually designed at all. It's all the alternatives like communism that have a design.
Yet another person who thinks that wages can just be legislated with no adverse impact. You may as well just print money while you're at it.
JMorris
Democratic Socialist
Which is apparently all you've given it. :yes:
Vile Atheist
Loud and Obnoxious
Thought you already said it doesn't.
OK, here's the point that I think you're missing: the laws in the bible aren't there to "condone" slavery. They aren't there to make excuses for slavery. Slavery was a fact of life in that time and place and those laws were there to ensure humane treatment of slaves. Period.
If someone is going to try and use those laws to cast a bad reflection on the bible, they're going to have to ignore all of the above in order to do it.
Then why the provisions for slavery and not for murder?
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